Guest guest Posted February 23, 2005 Report Share Posted February 23, 2005 Note from the List Moderators: Links such as the above that are relevant to advaita vedantta philosophy are are always welcome. Members posting such links are requested to provide a brief summary of what the link is about. This will be helpful for the readers. praNAms Hare Krishna Yes, giving the gist of the web info. would be of great help to those who donot have the access to internet. If anything related to the onging discussion, the relevant portion can be copied & pasted in the mail for ready reference. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2005 Report Share Posted February 23, 2005 Namaste Bhaskar, I've noticed that when you reply to someone's post, your reply has the same appearance as the original post, i.e., usually one of them is bold and the other "normal." It's difficult to sort through your replies. Perhaps there's some setting you can change to make a distinction--or, if not, perhaps you'd be willing to use either quotation marks or <> for the text to which you refer. While I don't usually contribute, I do faithfully read the posts, and I appreciate your contributions. Thanks for whatever you can do, Bob Freedman bhaskar.yr wrote: > > Note from the List Moderators: Links such as the above that are relevant > to advaita vedantta philosophy are are always welcome. Members posting such > links are requested to provide a brief summary of what the link is about. > This will be helpful for the readers. > > praNAms > Hare Krishna > > Yes, giving the gist of the web info. would be of great help to those who > donot have the access to internet. If anything related to the onging > discussion, the relevant portion can be copied & pasted in the mail for > ready reference. > > Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! > bhaskar > > > > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > Links > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2005 Report Share Posted February 23, 2005 praNAm all, I'm taking the liberty of pasting the entire content as is, though long, for the benefit of those without internet access. I hope most of us do find it interesting. jai bajrangabali, --praveeN --- Swami Chidananda on Self-Realisation Kind courtesy of "Tapovan Prasad." This is an interview with our Most Revered President Swamiji Maharaj, published in two parts in November and December, 2003. On March 25, 2000, Jujhar Singh met this great saint at 'Guru Niwas' in Rishikesh for a two-hour interview on the theme of Self-realisation. Parts of the interview were published in The Times of India and in First City magazine earlier this year. This is the first part of the interview. The second part will be published next month. Q. Vedanta philosophy clearly states that the goal of life is to attain the state of Self-realisation. What is this state and why is this the goal of life? The Vedic rishis found that everything in the world that blooms is also subject to ultimate decay and dissolution. So they wondered-are we, human beings, endowed with intelligence just to live a brief life span and then pass away? They reasoned that life cannot be devoid of some higher purpose, especially when we are the only species of living beings who have the ability to think and reflect. After generations of investigations and after having raised their consciousness to a very subtle level, they came to the Truth through direct experience. They declared that beneath this mortal body seen by the world of man is an immortal spirit unseen by the world of man. And that Eternal in the non-eternal body, that Imperishable in the perishable body is actually part of a vast, infinite, eternal, beginningless, endless, cosmic Spirit. Timeless, beginningless and endless. It exists. It does not exist as an inert piece. It is Consciousness. Very much aware that it exists. It knows-I exist. So it is conscious existence. Existence is Sat, Consciousness is Chit. So it is Sat Chit. And in that state of pure Sat chit (Existence-Consciousness) many are the imperfect, negative experiences man is subject to once he is born in this mortal world-heat and cold, pleasure and pain, loss and gain, honour and dishonour. All these things assail man. But all these travails that man is subject to in this mortal world have no access to that lofty, sublime, transcendental realm, where abides only peace and bliss. There is Ananda in that Sat Chit. So it is Sat Chit Ananda. That is the nearest way you could define or describe that state of eternal Existence, which is also referred to as Brahman. And to realise and enter this state is called Self-realisation. Self-realisation is the goal of life because in that state there are no sorrows. Once you discover that you are the infinite, imperishable, eternal reality-you are liberated from all sorrow. In that state, there is only pure and permanent bliss and joy. Isn't that the goal of each and every one of us? Q. But there is joy in this mortal world, too? Yes, but it is neither pure nor permanent. If a thing is capable of giving you a pleasurable sensation, that same thing is capable of giving you a painful sensation also. A man marries-he's is in seventh heaven. Then if she runs off with someone else, or she dies, then he plunges into sorrow. This happens because the world is imperfect and man is imperfect. In one sloka in the Gita, the advice is that pleasure is the womb of pain. In seeking pleasure, you have already created your pain. Thus, pleasure in worldly objects and people is neither pure nor permanent. If you want real, continuous happiness that does not change or end-then rise above petty desires and seek the ultimate Reality. There is supreme Bliss, supreme satisfaction in it-an indescribable joy and peace. So make use of this life. It is a golden opportunity. While fulfilling your duties here, be a seeker of Truth, seeker of Brahman. Seek Self-realisation. In the word, 'Self-realisation', 'Self does not mean your little self. It means your supreme Self. This is why Self is written with a big 'S'. Know your real Self. Your mortal body is only a vehicle given to you to function upon this earth. But you are distinct from it. You are an immortal part of divinity. And when that is realised, one realises that I am aware, one with that limitless ocean of Sat-chit-ananda. I'm a little wave, but I'm part of the ocean. There's no difference between the wave and the ocean. The wave may appear separate because it has a size and a form. But that is momentary and then it goes back into the ocean. From the ocean it arises, for a moment it exists, and then it goes back into the ocean. Q. How does the world appear to such a Self-realised person? The world appears just as it is. But he realises that the fabric of the world is not what he thought it was before. He realises that it is nothing but the Brahman principle. Q. And how does his own body and mind appear to him? Same thing. He sees it as part of Brahman. He is completely objective. Q. Is Self-realisation within the reach of every human being? It is birthright of every human being. Because he has been born as a human being. It is not within the reach of any other creature in creation. The moment you reach the status of a human being, the goal of Self-realisation becomes open. Q. At any given time, roughly how many Self-realised people do you think there are in the world? It's impossible to say. Q. Roughly? (Laughs) You may be a realised person, I do not know-because they don't grow horns and spread wings! Or they don't come down and say: "Oyee, I'm a realised person. .....!" Q. But what would you estimate? Would they be in three figures or four figures or five figures.....? You see, three figures could be 999! (Laughs) You see! Similarly. So they are between three and four figures in the world. And a great proportion are in India. Doubtless. Because that is the quest of India. Q. Would you say that more than half of them are from India? Yes, yes, yes. No doubt about it. I'll put it that 60% are from India. This is because people from other cultures don't have this as their supreme goal. Q. Since a Self-realised person is one with the Infinite and eternal, does he have supernatural powers? You see, from your relative point of view, these powers are something special, something very fascinating. But from the Self-realised person's point of view, they mean nothing. They are a natural part of him. I have got five fingers. I don't crow about it-"I've got five fingers! I've got five fingers!" These supernatural powers are as natural to the supreme being as having five fingers. Theoretically, of course, Self-realised people have all powers. There is nothing that they cannot do. But they are generally not interested in doing all these things because they know that the whole world is a myth, a dream. >From myth, they have been awakened. So why would they be interested in doing anything in a dream world? You see, when a person has dreamt a number of dreams one night and woken up in the morning-what value has the dream got for him? Similarly, once the Self-realised person has woken up to the supreme Reality, this mortal world is a dream, a myth. Q. But looking at it from our point of view-if a Self-realised person has all powers, why can't he use those powers to solve all the problems in the world? Why should he solve all the problems in a world that does not exist in his state of Consciousness? Q. No, but from the human being's stand point? But he is in that standpoint. You are referring him to a world to which he would say where is this world where you want me to solve the problems? Okay, if you oblige him to come to your state of consciousness and ask him this question, he will say that the world is God's creation. It has been here thousands of years before I came here and he has been looking after the world in His own way and the world has been going on. And if I leave the scene tomorrow and go away, the world will continue to go on. My being there or not being there will not even be noticed. See, if somebody gets diarrhoea the doctor says, "I 'won't give you any medicine because some inedible things have gone into your intestines and so nature is flushing your system clean. So let us not come in the way of nature. Just eat light things and don't come back to a normal diet until your system has come back to its normal state." You see, the point is that you see things in a fragmentary, segmented way-but He sees the whole thing. Q. Can a Self-realised person change another person's destiny? He can mitigate another's destiny. But he will not change it because that destiny has been ordained by God and the Self-realised person has no interest in contradicting God. He would rather try to be in harmony with God. Q. How does he mitigate another person's destiny? What is this power to mitigate? Read the life of Shirdi Sai Baba. He had an ardent devotee who had completely surrendered at Shirdi Sai Baba's feet. But due to some past karma, the devotee was destined to be executed by impalement with a spear-like object. But this man had completely transformed himself. So one day when this man went into the fields, a very sharp thorn went very deeply into his foot. He suffered terrible, agonising pain and became unconscious. Half of the thorn in fact broke inside and other people had to put a sharp instrument inside to remove the thorn. The man underwent terrible agony. But by going through this, he was saved from the impalement that was due to him. His destiny had been mitigated. Q. How does one recognise a Self-realised person? When you are beside a Self-realised person-no matter how bothered, troubled or worried you are-you will, for the time being, experience peace. Your mind will be serene and it will be directed towards the person before whom you are sitting and not towards the other people who may also be sitting there. Q. So in general, how do Self-realised people benefit the world? A lot. They are fragrance where there is bad. Vibrations of goodwill emanate from them because Self-realised people have nothing in their heart except that all should be happy, all should be free from suffering. Day after day, they wish the well-being of all living creatures. That is the only thing they have in them-they have no other desire. This thought and this feeling goes out in waves from them all over the world. And thoughts have power. Evil thoughts sent to someone can disturb the mind of the person to whom they are sent. In the same way, thoughts of cosmic love and peace have the effect of mitigating the sorrow, suffering and negative thought currents in the world. Q. There is a stage referred to as the 'dark night of the soul', which a Sadhaka (spiritual seeker) goes through during his inward journey towards Self-realisation. What is this? John Bunyan has written a book called "Pilgrim's Progress", where he traces the seeker's path until he attains God. Along the way, there is a stage where the seeker falls into the quagmire of despondency. At another place, he is caught by despair. So he goes through despondency, despair, doubt and confusion. He feels he won't attain it at all. He thinks his life has been a waste. St. John of the Cross has also talked about this stage. Q. Do most Sadhakas go through this? Yes. Most people go through this. Q. And is this despondency spiritually related or can it be to do with other things in life? Spiritually. All are connected with spiritual life. Q. How much before Self-realisation does this happen? Only when one is mature and advanced in one's Sadhana (spiritual practice), these things begin to happen. Otherwise a person is not worthy of going through all these various deep emotions. You don't know all these things. Q. When one eventually does attain Self-realisation-can one slip out of it? Once you get full Self-realisation, there is no coming out of it. You will always be in that state. There is no coming in and out. Q. But isn't there a stage where one slips in and out of that state until one gets established in it? There comes a time when the Sadhaka, in a state of very deep, intense, continuous meditation, gets this Atma jnana (Self-knowledge). The deep, intense, continuous meditation suddenly stops and one goes into a stage where there is no more meditation, one just is in a certain state. He is in Samadhi. The Sadhaka has reached there by dint of great perseverance and effort, reached this height of being. But he may not be able to remain in it for a long time. After sometime, he may come back. Then starts again. Again he may go into Samadhi-and come back. Then, from that stage onwards, he is no longer practicing meditation-he's practising Samadhi. You get the difference? He's practising samadhi. He's practising to remain continuously abiding in that same state of Consciousness, into which he is currently going in and coming out. Eventually, he gets well established in that state. The state becomes natural to him both during meditation and in the time of normal activities. It becomes a spontaneous, natural state for him. This is called Sahaja-samadhi. 'Sahaja' means it becomes part of his natural, effortless, spontaneous being. Until then, he has to keep on trying. But once this stage is attained, it is Self-realisation. Q. That is Self-realisation? That is Self-realisation. No more rebirths after that. No more slipping in and out of that state. Q. So that means Self-realisation doesn't happen in one specific moment? It can, in some cases. Sometimes people get illumination. Ramana Maharshi never did any Sadhana. One day suddenly, when he was around 16 or 17 years old, through no effort of his, suddenly he felt that he was not the body, that he was the deathless Self. Effort is necessary in the vast amount of cases. But there are a few such people to whom there has been this spontaneous Self-realisation. It has been explained that someone could have done all the effort in his previous life. He was almost ripe. But just before he could attain Self-realisation, his body's Prarabdha was finished and he passed away. So when this birth happens, he takes up from where he left off in the previous life and there you are. Q. So such a person, in his previous life, was already at a stage where he was perhaps practising Samadhi and was slipping in and out, but hadn't quite reached Sahaja-samadhi? He was almost there. Maybe he was slipping in and out or maybe he was just about to get into that state for the first time. Q. In one. of Swami Sivanandaji's books, there is a mention of a void before Self-realisation. What is this void? You see, until the point where you attain Self-realisation, there is still a trace of the human personality-human personality identity consciousness. One still feels that I am so and so. Even though he says God, God, God, God-there is also a little bit of I with God. There is 95% divinity and 5% this I. And this I is a myth. You are actually a part and parcel of God. You are 100% divine. So this "I" has to go. As long as it is there, that Consciousness is not complete and perfect. Let me give you an analogy. A river flows, flows, flows, flows. At last, it approaches the sea. And then it enters into the sea. But even after having entered into the sea, till quite some distance, the water still tastes sweet. Because the river has not left its river-ness completely. It still retains its river-ness, although its two banks are finished. Bank-less, it is already in the sea. But after it goes further into the sea, a time comes when the water is no longer sweet. It is the salt water of the sea alone. That stage when the river is gone, but the vastness of the sea has not yet been attained, that interim period when it is neither the river nor the sea-that is the void. Let me give you another example. You come to a point where there is nothing but the edge of a precipice and yawning chasm. And the actual experience is on the other side of the chasm. Unless you leave this precipice, you cannot go to the other side. So there is a point where ultimately he takes the leap. When he takes the leap, he is lifted up into the air. But he has not yet landed there. So there is a point where he has left this precipice, but not yet landed on the other side. In between, where is he? Nowhere. That nowhere is the spiritual void. At that time, neither is the human ego there nor has the divine Consciousness come. At that time, they say there is a void. But, of course, in the spiritual context, the duration of the void may be a little longer. Q. When he lands on the other side, is that Sahaja-samadhi or is he at a stage where he can still slip in and out? It is the ultimate state, the ultimate Samadhi. Until that stage there is still duality, a trace of duality. Once you are there, there is absolute non-duality. You are one with Brahman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 23, 2005 Report Share Posted February 23, 2005 Namaste Bhaskar, praNAms Sri Bob Freedman prabhuji Hare Krishna BF prabhuji: I've noticed that when you reply to someone's post, your reply has the same appearance as the original post bhaskar : Usually in my replies, my views will be under my name & other's views will be under their respective name's first letter with a suffix *prabhuji*..Like what I followed here. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2005 Report Share Posted March 10, 2005 praNAm Sri praveen bhat prabhuji Hare Krishna Thanks a lot for quoting Swamy chidananda prabhuji's observation on Self realization. From the dialogues it is clear that NS/AS is a kartru tantra pradhAna *coming & going state* & it is not vEdAnta janita Atma sahaja jnAna which is not the product of any human effort & his modified knowledge!!! The vEdAnta vihita Atma jnAna is *sahaja* & it is not an exolted, abnormal, motionless state of some individuals!!! Without knowing difference between these kartru tantra & vastu tantra jnAna-s, we are mixing AS of patanjala with that of Atmaikatva jnAna of shankara/shruti-s.... despite the fact that shankara calling yOga shAstra as a dualistic theory. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2005 Report Share Posted March 13, 2005 praNAm all, Bhaskarji wrote: > Thanks a lot for quoting Swamy chidananda prabhuji's observation on Self > realization. From the dialogues it is clear that NS/AS is a kartru tantra > pradhAna *coming & going state* & it is not vEdAnta janita Atma sahaja > jnAna which is not the product of any human effort & his modified > knowledge!!! The vEdAnta vihita Atma jnAna is *sahaja* & it is not an > exolted, abnormal, motionless state of some individuals!!! Swami Chidanandaji says that after a while, the *state* to which a sadhaka is "coming and going" becomes natural and that is called *Sahaja samadhi*, meaning there is no coming and going. I've copied only that portion below. "Eventually, he gets well established in that state. The state becomes natural to him both during meditation and in the time of normal activities. It becomes a spontaneous, natural state for him. This is called Sahaja-samadhi. 'Sahaja' means it becomes part of his natural, effortless, spontaneous being. Until then, he has to keep on trying. But once this stage is attained, it is Self-realisation." Recently, I noticed this mentioned in tripurA rahasya also. btw: I've been trying to find out what is the position of tripurA rahasya in Shankara siddhAnta. Would you be able to throw some light in this matter please? Bhaskarji wrote: > Without knowing > difference between these kartru tantra & vastu tantra jnAna-s, we are > mixing AS of patanjala with that of Atmaikatva jnAna of > shankara/shruti-s.... despite the fact that shankara calling yOga shAstra > as a dualistic theory. Sorry, I've not read your effortful posting on "nirvikalpa samadhi in shankara advaita vedAnta" in full yet, so I have to ask if you could kindly point me to where exactly are you referring Shankara's pointing this please? Also, if yOga can be a (dualistic) *means* to the (non-dualistic) *goal*, did Shankara even refute those means? Since I'm a beginner student, I would request the learned members, like yourself, Bhaskarji, to correct me. Thanks much, jai bajrangabali, --praveeN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote: > > praNAm Sri praveen bhat prabhuji > Hare Krishna > > Thanks a lot for quoting Swamy chidananda prabhuji's observation on Self > realization. From the dialogues it is clear that NS/AS is a kartru tantra > pradhAna *coming & going state* & it is not vEdAnta janita Atma sahaja > jnAna which is not the product of any human effort & his modified > knowledge!!! The vEdAnta vihita Atma jnAna is *sahaja* & it is not an > exolted, abnormal, motionless state of some individuals!!! Without knowing > difference between these kartru tantra & vastu tantra jnAna-s, we are > mixing AS of patanjala with that of Atmaikatva jnAna o > shankara/shruti-s.... Pranams Shri Bhaskar-ji Before accusing members of being confused and mixed up, have you considered the possibililty that you may be mistaken in your assertions?. Let us consider your assertion that Atma Jnana is not a product of any human effort. The Upanishads clearly teach us that the means to self knowledge are shravana, manana and nidhidhyasana - these are all human efforts NOT to acquire Jnana but to remove obstacles. Next you says that NS/AS is a coming and going state and discard the observations of Swami Chidananda who by the way is not quoting scriptures but talking from his own experience. Since you have quoted from Sri Ramana and consider his words pramana let me show that Swami Chidananda's observations are fully in agreement with statements from Sri Ramana! Here is a portion from Swami Chidananda's observations: >> There comes a time when the Sadhaka, in a state of very deep, intense, continuous meditation, gets this Atma jnana (Self- knowledge). The deep, intense, continuous meditation suddenly stops and one goes into a stage where there is no more meditation, one just is in a certain state. He is in Samadhi. The Sadhaka has reached there by dint of great perseverance and effort, reached this height of being. But he may not be able to remain in it for a long time. After sometime, he may come back. Then starts again. Again he may go into Samadhi—and come back. Then, from that stage onwards, he is no longer practicing meditation—he's practising Samadhi. You get the difference? He's practising samadhi. He's practising to remain continuously abiding in that same state of Consciousness, into which he is currently going in and coming out. >> Please note the references to great effort AND the ceasing of effort when the sadhaka goes into Samadhi. Next consider the words of Sri Ramana below: It completely confirms what Swami Chidananda observed! >> D: I want to be further enlightened. Should I try to make no effort at all? B: Now is is impossible for you to be without effort. When you go deeper, it is impossible for you to make effort. D: What is the difference between meditation and samadhi or absorption in the self? B: meditation is initiated and sustained by a conscious effort of the mind. When such effort entirely subsides, it is called Samadhi. >> Moreover both Sri Ramana and Sri Chidananda's observations are in line with the yoga sutra `Tada drastuh Svarupe Avasthanam' and Sankara's explanation of the highest Samadhi: http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m25015.html He indeed (ethasyam) (hyaVasthayamÂ) in this Avastha state (Atma) the Atman (Svarupa prathistayam) established in its own nature (Avidyaropavarjita) bereft of the superimposition of Avidya In summary the observations of Swami Chidananda, Shri Ramana are fully in agreement with the Yoga Sutras and Sri Sankara! Please ask yourself who is confused and who is mixed up?:-) regards Sundar Rajan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 14, 2005 Report Share Posted March 14, 2005 Namaste Oh God. Quoting any Jnani will not work in this matter. The best thing would be to study Shankara's Bhashyas on Prasthana Traya and then decide for ourselves whether Samadhi is accepted in the Advaita Vedanta or not. Advaita Vedanta is NOT equal to Advaita Vedanta tradition. Let's not mix it up. The present Advaita Vedanta tradition has already made Ashtanga Yoga of Patanjali as a valid means to moksha. We can trace its beginning right to Panchadashi and Jivanmuktiviveka (AFAIK). So I am not surprised at all with the two camps that we are witnessing among us. However there are many teachers who have realized that the present tradition is itself been mixed up with Yoga. Therefore they decided to stick to the root teachings of Shankara as explained in his Bhashyas which they term as the genuine Advaita Vedanta tradition. Here is an advice from Sadhana Panchakam: dustarkat suviramyatam shrutimatastarko anusandhIyataam - Avoid perverse arguments but follow the discriminative rationale of the Sruti. If we wish to dwell in this matter further, then I would humbly request that all of us, who wish to engage in a healthy discussion, quote only Shankara's Bhashyas to prove one's point about Samadhi. That would make us more focused instead of grazing in the fields of quotations from modern teachers. Thank you. On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 06:28:21 -0000, Sundar Rajan <avsundarrajan wrote: > > > advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote: > > > > praNAm Sri praveen bhat prabhuji > > Hare Krishna > > > > Thanks a lot for quoting Swamy chidananda prabhuji's observation > on Self > > realization. From the dialogues it is clear that NS/AS is a > kartru tantra > > pradhAna *coming & going state* & it is not vEdAnta janita Atma > sahaja > > jnAna which is not the product of any human effort & his modified > > knowledge!!! The vEdAnta vihita Atma jnAna is *sahaja* & it is > not an > > exolted, abnormal, motionless state of some individuals!!! > Without knowing > > difference between these kartru tantra & vastu tantra jnAna-s, we > are > > mixing AS of patanjala with that of Atmaikatva jnAna o > > shankara/shruti-s.... > > Pranams Shri Bhaskar-ji > > Before accusing members of being confused and mixed up, have you > considered the possibililty that you may be mistaken in your > assertions?. > > Let us consider your assertion that Atma Jnana is not a product of > any human effort. The Upanishads clearly teach us that the means to > self knowledge are shravana, manana and nidhidhyasana - these are > all human efforts NOT to acquire Jnana but to remove obstacles. > > Next you says that NS/AS is a coming and going state and discard the > observations of Swami Chidananda who by the way is not quoting > scriptures but talking from his own experience. > > Since you have quoted from Sri Ramana and consider his words pramana > let me show that Swami Chidananda's observations are fully in > agreement with statements from Sri Ramana! > > Here is a portion from Swami Chidananda's observations: > >> > There comes a time when the Sadhaka, in a state of very deep, > intense, continuous meditation, gets this Atma jnana (Self- > knowledge). The deep, intense, continuous meditation suddenly stops > and one goes into a stage where there is no more meditation, one > just is in a certain state. He is in Samadhi. The Sadhaka has > reached there by dint of great perseverance and effort, reached this > height of being. But he may not be able to remain in it for a long > time. After sometime, he may come back. > > Then starts again. Again he may go into Samadhi—and come back. > Then, > from that stage onwards, he is no longer practicing > meditation—he's > practising Samadhi. You get the difference? He's practising > samadhi. > He's practising to remain continuously abiding in that same state > of > Consciousness, into which he is currently going in and coming out. > >> > > Please note the references to great effort AND the ceasing of effort > when the sadhaka goes into Samadhi. > > Next consider the words of Sri Ramana below: It completely confirms > what Swami Chidananda observed! > > >> > D: I want to be further enlightened. Should I try to make no effort > at all? > > B: Now is is impossible for you to be without effort. When you go > deeper, it is impossible for you to make effort. > > D: What is the difference between meditation and samadhi or > absorption in the self? > > B: meditation is initiated and sustained by a conscious effort of > the mind. When such effort entirely subsides, it is called Samadhi. > >> > > Moreover both Sri Ramana and Sri Chidananda's observations are in > line with the yoga sutra > `Tada drastuh Svarupe Avasthanam' > > and Sankara's explanation of the highest Samadhi: > http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m25015.html > He indeed (ethasyam) > (hyaVasthayamÂ) in this Avastha state > (Atma) the Atman > (Svarupa prathistayam) established in its own nature > (Avidyaropavarjita) bereft of the superimposition of Avidya > > In summary the observations of Swami Chidananda, Shri Ramana are > fully in agreement with the Yoga Sutras and Sri Sankara! > > Please ask yourself who is confused and who is mixed up?:-) > > regards > Sundar Rajan > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > Links > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 15, 2005 Report Share Posted March 15, 2005 praNAms Sri PraveeN Bhat prabhuji Hare Krishna, PB prabhuji: Swami Chidanandaji says that after a while, the *state* to which a sadhaka is "coming and going" becomes natural and that is called *Sahaja samadhi*, meaning there is no coming and going. I've copied only that portion below. bhaskar : prabhuji we dont have any issue with sahaja state which is nothing but shruti vAkya janita Atmaikatva jnAna...the problem we have here is the *state* to which sAdhaka makes frequent visits & whether which is in itself shAstra janita Atma jnAna...Further, to realize this natural/sahaja state of ours whether *coming & going* state is a prerequisite or this *sahaja* state will reveal itself after getting rid of avidyA?? Here, some prabhuji's telling patanjala yOga is not advocating *coming & going* state & it is nothing but vEdAnta vihita brahma jnAna itself..on this issue we are trying to share our respective understanding since we have difference of opinion. PB prabhuji: "Eventually, he gets well established in that state. The state becomes natural to him both during meditation and in the time of normal activities. It becomes a spontaneous, natural state for him. This is called Sahaja-samadhi. 'Sahaja' means it becomes part of his natural, effortless, spontaneous being. Until then, he has to keep on trying. But once this stage is attained, it is Self-realisation." bhaskar : Again,swamiji seems to say here *until* the sahaja state is realized the effort is required, but it is not clear whether this effort is towards achieving *coming & going* state or something else...Anyway, from the above para it appears that sahaja state has to be followed by *coming & going* state of NS... PB prabhuji: Recently, I noticed this mentioned in tripurA rahasya also. btw: I've been trying to find out what is the position of tripurA rahasya in Shankara siddhAnta. Would you be able to throw some light in this matter please? bhaskar : Shankara bases his philosophy mainly on prasthAna trayi i.e. shruti-s, gIta & vEdAnta sUtra-s. He hardly quotes any pUrANa or other minor works for justification of his stand (except vishNu purANa which he quotes couple of times in gItA bhAshya)..So, prabhuji, if you strictly ask me what would be the position of tripurA rahasya in *shankara siddhAnta* (I repeat *shankara siddhAnta) I am not able to tell anything since shankara has not commented on this text. Others who hold the different perspective of shankara siddhAnta may able to throw more light on this. I heard that bhagavan ramaNa used to quote a lot from this text.. Bhaskarji wrote: > Without knowing > difference between these kartru tantra & vastu tantra jnAna-s, we are > mixing AS of patanjala with that of Atmaikatva jnAna of > shankara/shruti-s.... despite the fact that shankara calling yOga shAstra > as a dualistic theory. PB prabhuji: Sorry, I've not read your effortful posting on "nirvikalpa samadhi in shankara advaita vedAnta" in full yet, so I have to ask if you could kindly point me to where exactly are you referring Shankara's pointing this please? bhaskar : Kindly see shankara's commentary on sUtra 2-1-3..shankara says here * dvaitinO hi tE sANkhyAH yOgAscha na Atmaikatva darshinaH...shankara makes it clear that sAnkhya & yOga shAstra followers are dualists since they are not the followers of shruti pratipAdita Atmaikatva jnAna...Since they maintain eternal difference between prakruti-purusha & believe in multiple jIva-s existence shankara calls both nirIshwara sAnkhya-s & sEshwara yOgin-s as dualists. PB prabhuji: Also, if yOga can be a (dualistic) *means* to the (non-dualistic) *goal*, did Shankara even refute those means? Since I'm a beginner student, I would request the learned members, like yourself, Bhaskarji, to correct me. bhaskar : sAnkhya is one of the pUrva pakshi-s which shankara has taken to task & refuted vehimently in sUtra bhAshya..yOga mainly follows sAnkhya in philosophical stand (except existence of Ishwara) this shAstra is also a pUrva pakshi to shankara siddhAnta. Thanks much, jai bajrangabali, --praveeN Humble praNAms onceagain Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Pranams Shri Bhaskar-ji praNAms Sri Sundar Rajan prabhuji Hare Krishna SR prabhuji: Before accusing members of being confused and mixed up, have you considered the possibililty that you may be mistaken in your assertions? bhaskar : Yes ofcourse prabhuji, I am not claiming I am perfect & other's views are flawed..but ONLY mistake (!! ??) I am making is taking shankara & his prasthAna trayi commentary as the ONLY source for my understanding of advaita siddhAnta. Perhaps, this would be the prime cause of my misunderstanding of advaita !! SR prabhuji: Let us consider your assertion that Atma Jnana is not a product of any human effort. bhaskar : it_is_not my assertion it is shankara's verdict....have you read my mail on kartru tantra & vastu tantra & its difference fully?? I've quoted shankara from sUtra bhAshya in justification...if you have any difference of opinion, kindly express it by quoting shankara..otherwise it would be futile discussion without base. SR prabhuji: The Upanishads clearly teach us that the means to self knowledge are shravana, manana and nidhidhyasana - these are all human efforts NOT to acquire Jnana but to remove obstacles. bhaskar : Kindly read shankara's commentary on bruhadAraNyaka, you will come to know why it is not kartru tantra & it is purely based on vastu tantra jnAna. If you are not quoting shankara from prasthAna trayi & simply making conclusions then I cannot continue this discussion further prabhuji. SR prabhuji: Next you says that NS/AS is a coming and going state and discard the observations of Swami Chidananda who by the way is not quoting scriptures but talking from his own experience. bhaskar : where did I discard the views of chidAnanda prabhuji?? as a matter of fact I only reiterated his views that kEvala or nirvikalpa samAdhi is *coming & going state* & sahaja is the natural state of a jnAni...Anyway, whether to gain/realize this natural state *coming & going state* of NS is indispensable?? is a different issue altogether. SR prabhuji: Since you have quoted from Sri Ramana and consider his words pramana bhaskar : ??? you know very well who started quoting ramaNa etc. first..for me pramANa is bhagavad pAda's prasthAna trayi works, my guruji's personal teaching on shankara bhAshya..I quoted ramaNa for those who tried to show me that ramaNa is agreeing to PY, chittra vrutti nirOdha & NS. SR prabhuji: let me show that Swami Chidananda's observations are fully in agreement with statements from Sri Ramana! bhaskar : if you could direct this effort towards shankara bhAshya on prasthAna trayi, that would be of great help to me prabhuji. SR prabhuji: Here is a portion from Swami Chidananda's observations: >> There comes a time when the Sadhaka, in a state of very deep, intense, continuous meditation, gets this Atma jnana (Self- knowledge). The deep, intense, continuous meditation suddenly stops and one goes into a stage where there is no more meditation, one just is in a certain state. He is in Samadhi. The Sadhaka has reached there by dint of great perseverance and effort, reached this height of being. But he may not be able to remain in it for a long time. After sometime, he may come back. Then starts again. Again he may go into Samadhi?and come back. Then, from that stage onwards, he is no longer practicing meditation?he's practising Samadhi. You get the difference? He's practising samadhi. He's practising to remain continuously abiding in that same state of Consciousness, into which he is currently going in and coming out. >> Please note the references to great effort AND the ceasing of effort when the sadhaka goes into Samadhi. bhaskar : please note that while saying that swamiji also telling us that NS is coming & going state...how did you miss that point & telling me that I have discarded swamiji's view on NS. Again, Prabhuji, please note that for mental purification we are not denying the efficacy of human effort...there is a place for vastu tantra jnAna also in shankara's advaita...Kindly see gIta bhAshya on this topic. SR prabhuji: Please ask yourself who is confused and who is mixed up?:-) bhaskar : I would be the happiest person to admit my mistake if it is proven by quoting shankara bhAshya.. praNAms once again Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!' bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2005 Report Share Posted March 17, 2005 Namaste praNAm Sri Kathirasan prabhuji Hare Krishna K prabhuji: Oh God. Quoting any Jnani will not work in this matter. bhaskar : I whole heartedly agree with you..but what to do, here members are so particular about quoting jnAni's..sometimes we too forced to do that... K prabhuji: The best thing would be to study Shankara's Bhashyas on Prasthana Traya and then decide for ourselves whether Samadhi is accepted in the Advaita Vedanta or not. bhaskar : Is shankara bhAshya an absolute necessary in our spiritual quest??? the question being posed sometime back here by advaitins!!! K prabhuji: If we wish to dwell in this matter further, then I would humbly request that all of us, who wish to engage in a healthy discussion, quote only Shankara's Bhashyas to prove one's point about Samadhi. That would make us more focused instead of grazing in the fields of quotations from modern teachers. bhaskar : this is what sorely missing in our discussion prabhuji, we are ready to quote post shankara guru-s, we are ready to quote other jnAni-s, AND we are ready to accept some translated versions of YS as a pramANa...but we are not ready to discuss shankara's prasthAna trayi bhAshya. We are asking ourselves whether it is really required shankara bhAshya for our understanding of scriptures & realization?? How sad it is..being bhagavadpAda followers we are trying to find answers to these type of mundane questions... Humble praNAms to all advaitins Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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