bhagavAn ramaNa maharshi on NS/AS of patanjala yOga

[Guest guest]

praNAms to all prabhujis

Hare Krishna

 

//quote //

 

 

Question: "Is samadhi, the eighth stage of raja yoga, the

same as the samadhi you speak of?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "In yoga the term samadhi refers to

some kind of trance and there are various kinds of samadhi.

But the samadhi I speak of is different. It is SAHAJ SAMADHI.

>From here you have samadhan (steadiness) and you remain

calm and composed even while you are active. You realise that you are moved

by the deeper real Self within.  You have no worries, no anxieties, no

cares, for you come to realise that  there is nothing belonging to you. You

know that everything is done by  something with which you are in conscious

union.

 

 

Yoga teaches CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA (control of the activities of the mind).

But I say ATMA VICHARA (self-investigation). This is the practical way.

Chitta Vritti Nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon, or by starvation.

As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is a recrudescence of thoughts. Of

what use is it then? In the state of stupor there is peace and no

misery.But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So Nirodha (control)

is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

// unquote //

 

The above opinion of bhagavan ramaNa is more than enough to prove that what

ramaNa/vEdAnta speaks about samadhi is not that of PY...Anyway, here below

more details of it.

 

Sofar, we have seen how even the neo vEdAntins like Swamy chidAnanda, Swamy

Dayananda Saraswati etc. have expressed their opinion on NS & why this is

not in line with vEdAnta's atmaikatwa jnAna. Now it is very very important

to see what Sri Bhagavan Ramana maharshi will say on this subject. Sri

Sunder Hattangadi prabhuji had provided some quotes from ramaNa in support

of NS but I dont know how our Sunder prabhuji has missed this important &

unambiguous observation wherein ramaNa categorically telling us there is a

difference between PS's NS & vEdAnta's Atmaikatva jnAna which is *sahaja*

to the jnAni irrespective of time & space. I humbly request PY followers

to read the following carefully & ensure that ramaNa's teaching is not that

of patanjali's ashtAnga yOga which is mainly consisting of deliberate

suppression of thoughts by the performer!!

 

My notes on NS in shankara's advaita is ready in manuscript & it has to be

keyed in the system. I hope I would be able to complete it withint a

couple of days.... In the meanwhile the following is really a good food

for thought for those who believe that ramaNa endorsing the patanjala yOga

& NS...

 

Thanks to my colleague who has kindly provided this link & full text of the

question & answers from his system.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

 

//quote //

 

http://www.hinduism.org.za/q&a.htm

 

 

 

 

Q  &  A

 

 

THE TEACHINGS OF SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI

Edited by David Godman; Arthur Osborne, Kavyakantha

G.Muni, Kurt Friedrichs, Mouni Sadhu.

 

 

 

MEDITATION AND CONCENTRATION

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi's insistence that awareness of the

"I" thought was a pre-requisite for Self-realisation led him

to the conclusion that all spiritual practices which did not

incorporate this feature were indirect and inefficient:

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi said "This path (attention to the ' I ' ) is

the direct path; all others are indirect ways. The first leads to

the Self, the others elsewhere. And even if the others do arrive at the

Self it is only because they lead at the  end to the first path which

ultimately carries them to the goal. So, in the end, the aspirants must

adopt the first path. Why not do so now? Why waste time?"

 

 

[Note: By David Godman: That is to say, other techniques may sometimes

bring one to an inner state of stillness in which self-attention or

self-awareness inadvertently takes place, but it is a very roundabout way

of reaching the Self.  Sri Ramana maintained that other techniques could

only take one to the place where self-enquiry starts and so he never

endorsed them unless he felt that particular questioners were unable or

unwilling to adopt self-enquiry.]

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi said: "The goal is the same for the one who meditates

[on an object] and the one who practises

self-enquiry. One attains stillness  through meditation, the other through

knowledge. One strives to attain something; the other seeks the one who

strives to attain. The former takes a longer time, but in the end attains

the Self."

 

 

[Note: Although Sri Ramana vigorously defended his views on self-enquiry

he never insisted that anyone change their beliefs or practices and, if he

was unable to convince his followers to take up self-enquiry, he would

happily give advice on other methods.]

 

Question by a disciple: "There is more pleasure in dhyana

(concentration) than in sensual enjoyments. Yet the mind runs

after the sensual enjoyments and does not seek the former.

Why is it so?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Pleasure or pain are aspects of the

mind only. Our essential nature is happiness. But we have

forgotten the Self and imagine  that the body or the mind is the Self. It

is that wrong identity that gives rise  to misery. What is to be done?

This mental tendency is very ancient and has continued for innumerable

past births.Hence it has grown

strong. That must go before the essential nature, happiness,

asserts itself."

 

Question: "It is said that the Self is beyond the mind and yet

the realisation is with the mind. The mind cannot think it. It

cannot be thought of by the mind and the mind alone can

realise it. How are these contradictions to be reconciled?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Atman (Self) is realised with mrita

manas (dead mind), that is, mind devoid of thoughts and turned inward.

Then the mind sees its own source and becomes that (the Self). It is not

as the subject perceiving an object.

 

 

When the room is dark, a lamp is necessary to illumine, and

eyes are necessary to recognise objects. But when the sun has risen there

is no need of a lamp to see objects. To see the sun no lamp is necessary,

it is enough that you turn your eyes towards the self-luminous sun.

 

 

Similarly with the mind. To see objects the reflected light of the mind is

necessary. To see the Heart it is enough that the mind is turned towards

it. Then mind loses itself and Heart shines forth.

 

 

The essence of mind is only awareness or consciousness.

When the ego, however, dominates it, it functions as the

reasoning, thinking or sensing faculty. The cosmic mind, being not limited

by the ego, has nothing separate from itself and is therefore only aware.

 

 

Again people often ask how the mind is controlled. I say to them, 'Show me

the mind and then you will know what to do'. The fact is that the mind is

only a bundle of thoughts. How can you extinguish it by the thought of

doing so or by a desire? Your thoughts and desires are part and parcel of

the mind. The mind is simply fattened by new thoughts rising up. Therefore

it is foolish to attempt to kill the mind by means of the mind. The only

way of doing it to find its source and hold on to it. The mind will then

fade away of its own accord.

 

Yoga teaches CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA (control of the activities of the

mind). But I say ATMA VICHARA (self-investigation). This is the practical

way. Chitta Vritti Nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon, or by

starvation. As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is a recrudescence of

thoughts. Of what use is it then? In the state of stupor there is peace

and no misery.But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So Nirodha

(control) is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

 

 

How then can the benefit be made lasting? It is by finding the

cause of misery. Misery is due to the perception of objects. If

they are not there, there will be no contingent thoughts and so

misery is wiped off.

 

 

'How will objects cease to be'? is the next question. The sruti

(scriptures) and the sages say that the objects are only mental creations.

They have no substantive being. Investigate the matter and ascertain the

truth of the statement. The result will be the conclusion that the

objective world is in the subjective consciousness.The Self is thus the

only reality which permeates and also envelopes the world. Since there is

no duality, no thoughts will arise to disturb your peace. This is

realisation of the Self. The Self is eternal and so also is realisation.

 

Abhyasa (spiritual practice) consists in withdrawal within the

Self every time you are disturbed by thought. It is not

concentration or destruction of the mind but withdrawal into the Self."

 

Question: "Why is concentration ineffective?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "To ask the mind to kill the mind is like making the

thief the policeman. He will go with you and pretend to catch the thief,

but nothing will be gained. So you must turn inward and see from where the

mind rises and then it will cease to exist."

 

Question: "In turning the mind inwards, are we not still employing the

mind?'

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi:"Of course we are employing the mind. It is well known

and admitted that only with the help of the mind can the mind be killed.

But instead setting about saying there is a mind, and I want to kill it,

you begin to seek the source of the mind, and you find the mind does not

exist at all. The mind, turned outwards, results in thoughts and objects.

Turned inwards, it becomes itself the Self."

 

 

SAMADHI

 

 

Question: "What is samadhi?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "The state in which the unbroken

experience of existence-consciousness is attained by the still

mind, alone is samadhi. That still mind which is adorned with

the attainment of the limitless Supreme Self, alone is the reality

of God.

 

 

When the mind is in communion with the Self in darkness, it is called

nidra (sleep), that is the immersion of the mind in

ignorance. Immersion in a conscious or wakeful state is called samadhi.

Samadhi is continuous inherence in the Self in a waking state. Nidra or

sleep is also inherence in the Self but in an unconscious state. In SAHAJ

SAMADHI the communion is continuous.

 

 

The immersion of the mind in the Self, but without its destruction, is

known as Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi. In this state one is not free from

vasanas and so one does not therefore attain mukti (liberation). Only

after the vasanas have been destroyed can one attain liberation."

 

 

 

Question: "When can one practice Sahaj Samadhi?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Even from the beginning. Even

though one practises Kevala Nirvikalpa Samadhi for years

together, if one has not rooted out the vasanas one will not

attain liberation.

 

Question: "Is samadhi, the eighth stage of raja yoga, the

same as the samadhi you speak of?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "In yoga the term samadhi refers to

some kind of trance and there are various kinds of samadhi.

But the samadhi I speak of is different. It is SAHAJ SAMADHI.

From here you have samadhan (steadiness) and you remain

calm and composed even while you are active. You realise that you are

moved by the deeper real Self within.  You have no worries, no anxieties,

no cares, for you come to realise that  there is nothing belonging to you.

You know that everything is done by  something with which you are in

conscious union.

 

 

 

Question: "If this sahaj samadhi is the most desirable condition, is there

no need for nirvikalpa samadhi?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "The nirvikalpa samadhi of raja yoga may have its

use. But in Jnana yoga this sahaj sthiti (natural state) or sahaj nishtha

(abidance in the natural state) itself is the nirvikalpa state. In this

natural state, the mind is free from doubts. It has no need to swing

between alternatives of possibilities and probabilities.It sees no

vikalpas (differences) of any kind. It is sure of the truth because it

feels the presence of the real. Even when it is active, it knows it is

active in the reality, the Self, the

Supreme Being."

 

 

 

Question: "How can one function in the world in such a state?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "One who accustoms himself naturally to meditation

and enjoys the bliss of meditation will not lose his samadhi state

whatever external work he does, whatever thoughts may come to him. That is

Sahaja Nirvikalpa. Sahaj Nirvikalpa is Nasa Manas (total destruction of

the mind). Those who are in the laya samadhi state (a trance like state in

which the mind is temporarily in abeyance) will have to bring the mind

back under control from time to time. If the mind is destroyed, as it is

in sahaj samadhi, it will never slide down from their high state.

 

 

 

Question:"Is samadhi a blissful or ecstatic state?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "In samadhi itself there is only perfect peace.

Ecstasy comes when the mind revives at the end of samadhi. In devotion the

ecstasy comes first. It is manifested by tears of joy, hair standing on

end, and vocal stumbling. When the ego finally dies and the Sahaj is won,

these symptoms and the ecstasies cease."

 

 

SIDDHIS (SUPER NATURAL POWERS)

 

 

Question: "On realising samadhi, does not one obtain siddhis (super

natural powers) also?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "In order to display siddhis, there must be others

to recognise them. That means, there is no jnana in the one who displays

them. Therefore, siddhis are not worth a thought. Jnana alone is to be

aimed at and gained."

 

 

TURIYA - THE FOURTH STATE

 

 

Question: "Is samadhi the same as Turiya, the fourth state?"

 

 

Sri Ramana Maharshi: "Samadhi, Turiya and nirvikalpa all

have the same implication, that is, awareness of the Self.

Turiya literally means the fourth  state, the Supreme

Consciousness, as distinct from the other three states  of

consciousness: waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep. The

fourth state  is eternal and the other three states come and go in it. In

Turiya there is the awareness that the mind has merged in its source, the

Heart, and is  quiescent there, although some thoughts still impinge on it

and the senses  are still somewhat active. In nirvikalpa, the senses are

inactive and thoughts are totally absent. Hence the experience of Pure

Consciousness in this state is intense and blissful. Turiya is obtainable

in savikalpa samadhi."

 

 

 

 

// unquote //

[Guest guest]

Pranams

>

>

> Yoga teaches CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA (control of the activities of

the mind).

> But I say ATMA VICHARA (self-investigation). This is the practical

way.

> Chitta Vritti Nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon, or by

starvation.

> As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is a recrudescence of

thoughts. Of

> what use is it then? In the state of stupor there is peace and no

> misery.But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So Nirodha

(control)

> is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

> // unquote //

>

> The above opinion of bhagavan ramaNa is more than enough to prove

that what

> ramaNa/vEdAnta speaks about samadhi is not that of PY...

 

The above statement is absolutely UNTRUE, Sri Bhaskar-ji. In fact, I

had already posted the above quote in one of my earlier messages to

show how the teachings of Great ones may appear contradictory and

have to be understood in the proper context.

 

Please see my message

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m24900.html

 

Bhagavan Ramana strongly endorses Patanjali Yoga and in fact states

that "chitta vritti nirodhah as the "goal of all" as can be seen

from below!

 

"Yogas chitta vritti nirodhah - (Yoga is to check the mind from

changing) - which is acceptable to all. That is also the goal of

all. The method is chosen according to one's own fitness..."

 

('Talks with Sri Ramana Maharishi' page 418)

>>

I dont know how our Sunder prabhuji has missed this important &

unambiguous observation wherein ramaNa categorically telling us

there is a

difference between PS's NS & vEdAnta's Atmaikatva jnAna which is

*sahaja*

to the jnAni irrespective of time & space. I humbly request PY

followers

to read the following carefully & ensure that ramaNa's teaching is

not that

of patanjali's ashtAnga yOga which is mainly consisting of deliberate

suppression of thoughts by the performer!!

>>

 

You saw from my response above that Ramana is categorically stating

the exact opposite of what you have postulated!

 

Further, regarding deliberate effort Bhagavan Ramana categorically

insists that effort is ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY.

 

//QUOTE

D: What is the difference between meditation and samadhi or

absorption in the self?

 

B: meditation is initiated and sustained by a conscious effort of

the mind. When such effort entirely subsides, it is called Samadhi.

 

Effort is necessary up to the state of Realisation. Even then, the

Self

should spontaneously become evident; otherwise happiness will be

complete. Up to that state of spontaneously there must be effort in

some form or another.

// END QUOTE

 

This view of Sri Ramana Maharishi is not unique but is perfectly in

accordance with the scriptures.

 

In the views of Advaitic acharyas

even before Sankara

(Acharyas such as Sri Gaudapada) Nidhidhyasana = Dhyana and Samadhi.

 

Lord Krishna emphasises the importance of effort towards

Nidhidhyasana in the Gita:

 

"anekajanmasamsiddhastato yati param gatim..6.45"

Attaining perfection through many births, thereby acheives the

highest Goal.

 

This is reiterated again in 18th chapter in the verse

18.52 'dhyaanayogaparo nitya.n'.

Sri Sankara interprets 'dhyaanayoga' in this context as Dhyana and

Yoga (absorption or Samadhi) (=Nidhidhyasana).

 

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

 

 

I dont know how our Sunder prabhuji has missed this important &

> unambiguous observation wherein ramaNa categorically telling us

there is a

> difference between PS's NS & vEdAnta's Atmaikatva jnAna which is

*sahaja*

> to the jnAni irrespective of time & space.

 

Namaste Bhaskarji,

 

Please refer to Messages # 25950 & 25986.

 

'saMyamana' on the heart gives Atma-jnAna. I do not see ANY

ambiguity in this.

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Pranams

 

I had posted in my previous messages that the Advaitic Purvacharyas

do not see ANY difference between the NS of Vedanta and the AS of

Yoga.

 

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m25064.html

 

In the writings of a host of Great Advaitins such as Sri

Sureshvaracharya, Sri Vidyaranya,

Sri Madhusudana Saraswati etc and commentators such as Shri

Anandagiri, Shri NeelaKanta, Shri Dhanpati the terms Asamprajnata

Samadhi found in the Yoga Shastras

are used as synonyms of Nirvikalpa Samadhi of Vedanta.

>>

In the meanwhile the following is really a good food

> for thought for those who believe that ramaNa endorsing the

patanjala yOga

> & NS...

>>

 

Sri Bhaskar-ji - any amount of food for thought is not

going to change the fact that Sri Ramana and the great Advaitic

purvacharyas fully endorse Patanjali

Yoga (as I showed in my previous message:

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m25183.html

 

> I humbly request PY followers

> to read the following carefully & ensure that ramaNa's teaching is

not that

> of patanjali's ashtAnga yOga which is mainly consisting of

deliberate

> suppression of thoughts by the performer!!

 

Now let us consider another one of Sri Bhaskar's favorite assertions

about deliberate effort: Is deliberate effort recommended by Sri

Ramana?

 

The answer is a resounding and unequivocal YES. In fact Sri Ramana

says it is IMPOSSIBLE for a Sadhaka not to make effort!. Please read

below and you will see clear references to deliberate effort,

restraint of chitta vrittis etc

 

//quote

A young man from Colombo, Ceylon, said to Bhagavan: J.

Krishanamurthi teaches the method of effortless and choiceless

awareness as distinct from that of deliberate concentration. Would

Sri Bhagavan be pleased to explain how best to practise meditation

and what form the object of meditation should take?

 

B: Effortless and choiceless awareness is our real nature. If we can

attain that state and abide in it, that is all right. But one cannot

reach it without effort, the effort of deliberate meditation. All

the age-old vasanas (inherent tendencies) turn the mind outwards to

external objects. All such thoughts have to be given up and the mind

turned inwards and that, for most people, requires effort.

 

Of course, every teacher and every book tells the aspirant to keep

quiet, but it is not easy to do so. That is why all this effort is

necessary. Even if we find somebody who has achieved this supreme

state of stillness, you may take it that the necessary effort had

already been made in a previous life. So effortless and choiceless

awareness is attained only after deliberate meditation. That

meditation can take whatever form most appeals to you. See what

helps you to keep out all other thoughts and adopt that for your

meditation.

 

In this connection Bhagavan quotes some verses from the great tamil

poet and saint, Thayumanavar, the gist of which is as follows: Bliss

will ensue if you keep still. It is the mind that tells the mind to

be still in order for it to attain bliss, but it will not do it.

Though all the scriptures have said it and though we hear it daily

from the great ones and even for our Guru, we are never quiet but

stray into the world of Maya (illusion) and sense objects. That is

why conscious, deliberate effort is needed to attain that effortless

state of stillness.

 

Indeed, until the supreme, effortless state is attained, it is

impossible for a man not to make effort. His own nature compels him

to, just as Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad Gita told Arjuna that his

own nature would compel him to fight.

 

D: I want to be further enlightened. Should I try to make no effort

at all?

 

B: Now is is impossible for you to be without effort. When you go

deeper, it is impossible for you to make effort.

 

//unquote

page 78 The Teaching of Bhagavan edited by Arthur Osborne

 

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

praNAm all,

 

praNAms Sri Praveen Bhatt prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

 

Bhaskarji wrote:

> Sri Ramana Maharshi: "In yoga the term samadhi refers to

> some kind of trance and there are various kinds of samadhi.

> But the samadhi I speak of is different. It is SAHAJ SAMADHI.

 

PB prabhuji:

 

I prefer to interpret this as "In THAT yoga, WHERE the term samadhi refers

to some kind of trance...

 

bhaskar :

 

kindly let us know which is that *THAT* yOga ramaNa referring here?? I mean

in which yOga samAdhi is some kind of trance & temporary time bound

reality??

 

PB prabhuji:

 

" since you can see that Maharshi later on says

"...But in Jnana yoga this sahaj sthiti (natural state) or sahaj nishtha

(abidance in the natural state) itself is the nirvikalpa state".

 

bhaskar :

 

So, prabhuji while talking about *trance state* & *THAT* yOga ramaNa

definitely would not have had jnAna yOga in mind right?? what we know from

this is jnAna yOga which is leading us to the natural state (sahaja sthiti)

of ours is not the yOga that fetch us the *trance state*..is it not??

 

PB prabhuji:

 

Its easy to quote randomly and think it drives home the point, missing the

context. For

example, the very beginning of your mail says:

> Sri Ramana Maharshi said "This path (attention to the ' I ' ) is

> the direct path; all others are indirect ways. The first leads to

> the Self, the others elsewhere. And even if the others do arrive at the

> Self it is only because they lead at the  end to the first path which

> ultimately carries them to the goal. So, in the end, the aspirants must

> adopt the first path. Why not do so now? Why waste time?"

 

This can easily and wrongly be quoted against any path, apart from

Atma-vichAra, including vedAnta! I'm sure ramaNa did not mean it so. A

living example accompaning maharShi then was gaNapati muni, a veda/vedAnta

master!

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji I didnot get this properly!! does not Atma vichAra embedded in

vEdAnta?? The ultimate goal of all scriptures is Atmaikatva vidya says

shankara.

 

PB prabhuji:

 

I humbly submit my understanding is that though statements appear

contradictory, they're not so when seen in the proper light. Few examples

from your mail below:

> Yoga teaches CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA (control of the activities of the

mind).

> But I say ATMA VICHARA (self-investigation). This is the practical way.

> Chitta Vritti Nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon, or by starvation.

> As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is a recrudescence of thoughts.

Of

> what use is it then?

 

ramaNa doesn't say that chitta vritti nirodha is *wrong*,

 

bhaskar :

 

Nobody says nirOdha of chitta vruttis is wrong!! We do respect the

methodology of chitta vrutti nirOdha as a separate school from vEdAnta.

But whether it is Atmaikatva vichAra as enshrined in shruti-s or is it a

separate shAstra as *yOga* propagated by pAtanjala?? is the question we are

striving to find answer!!

 

PB prabhuji:

 

he just says that he recommends Atma vichAra, that is also a kind of chitta

vritti nirodha.

 

bhaskar :

 

But prabhuji, you might have seen above ramaNa clearly saying his method is

NOT chitta vrutti nirOdha BUT Atma vichAra...if Atma vichAra is also one of

the kinds of nirOdha ramaNa would have not made the difference between

these two!!

 

PB prabhuji:

 

Focusing the mind on one thought such as Atma vichAra is also a means to

chitta vritti nirodha. You may also appreciate that the same sutra has been

interpreted differently by Swami Vivekananda, Shri Vyasa, etc. (reference

Fernando Tola & Dragonnetti's book).

 

bhaskar :

 

Thanks for the reference...but I hope by this time you figured out our

problem here!!

 

PB prabhuji:

 

Sorry, I may have missed the point you see, but I respectfully disagree

that

swAmi chidAnanda said against samadhi-s.

 

bhaskar :

 

I didnot mean that swAmi chidAnanda telling anything against samAdhi..I am

trying to point out that swamiji telling *some* kind of samAdhi in THAT

yoga is *coming & going* state..nothing less & nothing more than that!!

 

PB prabhuji:

 

In all the points I'm trying to bring out above, all I'm trying to say is

everyone's angles are pointing towards the goal and they're not saying that

any form of *samadhi* is *wrong*, they're merely saying that it is improper

to stop till sahaja is achieved.

 

bhaskar :

 

As said above, by any means we are not trying to belittle any path or other

schools of thought & their resultant effects!! we are just trying to find

out whether these things have place in shankara siddhAnta & vEdAnta. Hope

our intention is clear to you now. Infact shankara says *paramataM

apratishiddhaM anumataM bhavati* Even yOga of pAtanjala & some of its

methods have been taken as means for mental purification in advaita

vEdAnta. More of this in my next mail Part-IV.

 

PB prabhuji:

 

humble praNAm-s once again and I hope that my words are not taken as a

personal attack. In my limited capacity, I've tried to express my feelings

of mArga towards advaita goal being all-encompassing.

 

bhaskar :

 

Nothing is personal here...after all we know we are doing jignAsa

here..Kindly pardon me if I said anything wrong....

 

shri krisNArpaNamastu,

--praveeN

 

Humble praNAms Once again

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Pranams Sri Sundar Rajan prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Sri Bhagavan ramaNa's observation:

> Yoga teaches CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA (control of the activities of

the mind).

> But I say ATMA VICHARA (self-investigation). This is the practical

way.

> Chitta Vritti Nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon, or by

starvation.

> As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is a recrudescence of

thoughts. Of

> what use is it then? In the state of stupor there is peace and no

> misery.But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So Nirodha

(control)

> is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

> // unquote //

>

> The above opinion of bhagavan ramaNa is more than enough to prove

that what

> ramaNa/vEdAnta speaks about samadhi is not that of PY...

 

SR prabhuji's conclusion :

 

The above statement is absolutely UNTRUE, Sri Bhaskar-ji.

 

bhaskar :

 

which one is untrue prabhuji?? ramaNa's observation or my point born out

of ramaNa's observation?? I am not inventing anything new to label my

statement as untrue here..whatever bhagavan said on the same lines I am

making my remarks...

 

SR prabhuji:

 

In fact, I had already posted the above quote in one of my earlier messages

to

show how the teachings of Great ones may appear contradictory and

have to be understood in the proper context.

 

bhaskar :

 

Again in the name of context you cannot side line the clear assertion of

bhagavan..prabhuji. Since you are in favour of PY & AS you are thinking

above statement is untrue & below statement of ramaNa that *CVN* is

acceptable to all is true...If I say the same thing that your below quote

is absolutely untrue & show the above statements in justification what you

are going to do prabhuji??

 

Further, it is not clear in which context ramaNa is *against* chitta vrutti

nirOdha & in which context & to which desciple he is preaching CVN is

acceptable to all...since we donot know both the cases & its context, it is

absurd to say by simply calling *context* & concluding one statement is

true & another is untrue since one is favouring our way of thinking..either

we have to accept both or leave it!!

 

Let me quote another example where ramaNa implicitly meant that remaining

in NS for thousand of years is not salvation. Here it is :

 

// quote //

 

Questioner:

 

When I am engaged in inquiry as to the source from which the 'I' springs,

I arrive at a stage of stillness of mind beyond which I am unable to

proceed further.

 

I have no thought of any kind and there is an emptiness, a blankness.

A mild light pervades and I feel myself bodiless. I have neither cognition

nor vision of body and form. The experience lasts nearly half an hour and

is pleasing.

 

Would I be correct in concluding that all that was necessary to secure

eternal happiness, that is freedom or salvation or whatever one calls it,

was to continue the practice until this experience could be maintained for

hours, days, and months together?

 

Sri Ramana: This does not mean salvation. Such a condition is termed

manolaya or temporary stillness of thought. Manolaya means concentration,

temporarily arresting the movement of thoughts.

 

As soon as this concentration ceases, thoughts, old and new, rush in as

usual;

and even if this temporary lulling of mind should last a thousand years,

it will never lead to total destruction of thought, which is what is called

liberation from birth and death.

 

//unquote//

 

 

bhaskar :

 

 

Now you tell me prabhuji in what context ramaNa advicing his desciple to

not to indulge in mind blank state?? Though this state fetching his

desciple nirvikalpa Ananda why ramaNa telling him even thousands of years

of experience of this state is not salvation??

 

SR prabhuji:

 

In the views of Advaitic acharyas even before Sankara (Acharyas such as Sri

Gaudapada) Nidhidhyasana = Dhyana and Samadhi.

 

bhaskar :

 

quote me the exact kArika reference let us look into it. manOnigraha yOga

or asparsha yOga of kArika is not that of PY...I'll try to quote the

relevant verses from 3rd prakaraNa & show you that it is not PY..Kindly

wait for Part-IV.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Lord Krishna emphasises the importance of effort towards

Nidhidhyasana in the Gita:

 

"anekajanmasamsiddhastato yati param gatim..6.45"

Attaining perfection through many births, thereby acheives the

highest Goal.

 

bhaskar :

 

The highest goal is not NS/AS here...see samaM paShyante sarvatra

samavasthitha IshwaraM etc. ..Moreover, please read that verse 6-45

onceagain carefully, krishna tells here lOkAntara, janmAntara gati of

yOgin-s..(anEka janma saMsiddhasthathO yAti parAm gatiM*..whereas shruti

vAkya janita jnAna is spontaneous & it is neither lokAntara nor janmAntara

jnAna..brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati says shruti it does not mean brahmavit

in next janma (janmAntare) & some other lOka (lOkAntare) brahmaiva bhavati

:-))

 

SR prabhuji:

 

This is reiterated again in 18th chapter in the verse 18.52

'dhyaanayogaparo nitya.n'.

Sri Sankara interprets 'dhyaanayoga' in this context as Dhyana and Yoga

(absorption or Samadhi) (=Nidhidhyasana).

 

bhaskar :

 

Kindly see shankara bhAshya, shankara explains in this chapter what is

dhyAna & what is yOga according to him & vEdAnta...& let me know how it can

be reconciled with PY sUtra.

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

> Sri Bhagavan ramaNa's observation:

>

> > Yoga teaches CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA (control of the activities of

> the mind).

> > But I say ATMA VICHARA (self-investigation). This is the

practical

> way.

> > Chitta Vritti Nirodha is brought about in sleep, swoon, or by

> starvation.

> > As soon as the cause is withdrawn there is a recrudescence of

> thoughts. Of

> > what use is it then? In the state of stupor there is peace and no

> > misery.But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So Nirodha

> (control)

> > is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

> > // unquote //

> >

> > The above opinion of bhagavan ramaNa is more than enough to prove

> that what

> > ramaNa/vEdAnta speaks about samadhi is not that of PY...

>

> SR prabhuji's conclusion :

>

> The above statement is absolutely UNTRUE, Sri Bhaskar-ji.

>

> bhaskar :

>

> which one is untrue prabhuji?? ramaNa's observation or my point

born out

> of ramaNa's observation?? I am not inventing anything new to

label my

> statement as untrue here..whatever bhagavan said on the same lines

I am

> making my remarks...

>

 

Namaste Sri Bhaskar-ji

 

Maybe I didn't make myself clear and you are right in asking

>which one is untrue prabhuji??

 

The answer to your question: I was referring in particular to your

statement and conclusion below:

>>

>>The above opinion of bhagavan ramaNa is more than enough to prove

>> that what

>> ramaNa/vEdAnta speaks about samadhi is not that of PY...

>>

 

 

I spent some more time looking into Sri Ramana's observations and

your above statement and realized that not only is your above

statement and conclusion wrong;

 

Moreover, on further analysis, it is apparent to me there is a

deliberate attempt to downplay and misrepresent Samadhi.

 

Sorry about the strong words but the situation unfortunately

requires it and I will explain below why I came to this conclusion.

 

First thing to note from Sri Ramana's observations above is that Sri

Ramana makes no reference to Samadhi anywhere above!. Second, while

Sri Ramana does talk about CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA Sri Bhaskar-ji, you

fail to point out that Sri Ramana is not criticising the Samadhi of

PY but the state of stupor.

>>

In the state of stupor there is peace and no

> > misery.But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So Nirodha

> (control)

> > is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

>>

 

There is a world of difference between the state of stupor (laya)

and the state of Samadhi which Sri Sankara and PY explain as the

state wherein the Sadhaka is established in his own nature (Atma) as

pure consciousness, completely bereft of the superimposition of

Avidya!

 

Sri Bhaskar-ji, you are asking members of this forum to always refer

to Sri Sankara bhasya:

>>

If you are not quoting shankara from prasthAna trayi & simply making

conclusions then I cannot continue this discussion further prabhuji..

>>

>>

for me

pramANa is bhagavad pAda's prasthAna trayi works, my guruji's

personal

teaching on shankara bhAshya..

>>

 

Please take your own advice Sri Bhaskar prabhu-ji and read Sri

Sankara's commentary on the Katha Upanishad mantra " yadaa

paJNchaavatishhThante..".

 

You will see that Sri Sankara is not talking about any 'inert' state

or any state of stupor but one remaining as pure consciousness. That

is exactly what Patanjali Yoga Sutras also states in the sutra 'Tada

drastuh Svarupe Avasthanam' – then the Seer (that is the Atma) is

established in its own nature.

 

Moreover the state of stupor is not only nowhere close to Samadhi

but is considered as a BIG OBSTACLE to Samadhi by none other than

Sri Gaudapadacharya.

 

Please refer to the Mandukya Karika Bhasyam of Sri Sankara on the

Advaita prakarana and the laye sambodhayet verse

 

laye sambodhayechchittaM vikshiptaM shamayetpunaH |

sakashhaayaM vijaaniiyaatsamapraaptaM na chaalayet.h || 44||

 

Sri Gaudapada teaches :

When the mind goes into torpor (laya) it should be awakened!...

 

Obviously Sri Gaudapada (just like Sri Ramana) only considers the

state of stupor to be intermediary and that the Sadhaka should

presever further!

 

Moreover, Sri Sankara in his bhasya categorically states that the

Sadhaka should with effort lead the mind from such intermediary

states and lead the mind to its goal (fixity in Brahman).

 

Given all that, it is perfectly obvious that

(1) the state of Stupor (laya) is NOT the highest Samadhi

(2) Chitta Vritti Nirodha that ONLY results in the state of Stupor

(but does not proceed to the highest Samadhi) is useless both from

Sri Ramana's point of view and that of Sri Sankara

 

Now if you again read Sri Ramana's observation below, doesn't it

make perfect sense?

>>

In the state of stupor there is peace and no

> > misery.But misery recurs when the stupor is removed. So Nirodha

> (control)

> > is useless and cannot be of lasting benefit.

>>

>>

 

Sri Ramana is NOT criticising the Samadhi of the Patanjali Yoga in

the above observation but the state of stupor.

 

And His message that 'the state of stupor is

useless' is in perfect agreement with Sri Gaudapadacharya's words,

Sri Sankara Bhasya and the Yoga Sutras!

 

So, please refrain from on-going propaganda of labelling something

which clearly is NOT Samadhi as Samadhi and mis-quoting Sri

Ramana and others to prove your wrong conclusions!

 

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri Sundar Rajan prabhuji:

Hare Krishna

 

SR prabhuji:

 

The answer to your question: I was referring in particular to your

statement and conclusion below:

 

bhaskar :

 

But this conclusion as said earlier...is not my invention..it_is_bhagavans

assertion..without any ambiguity I was simply echoing his verdict prabhuji.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

I spent some more time looking into Sri Ramana's observations and

your above statement and realized that not only is your above

statement and conclusion wrong;

 

Moreover, on further analysis, it is apparent to me there is a

deliberate attempt to downplay and misrepresent Samadhi.

 

bhaskar :

 

thats your perception, whom am I to object it prabhuji?? I can only say

from my perspective that you have miserably failed to understand my

contention despite repeatedly telling the same thing..

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Sorry about the strong words but the situation unfortunately

requires it and I will explain below why I came to this conclusion.

 

bhaskar :

 

thats fine prabhuji, I dont have any problem..I am used to these types of

*strong* words :-)) Being an advaitin, I think, I have enough mental

vigour to withstand these criticisms without taking it personally :-))

 

SR prabhuji:

 

First thing to note from Sri Ramana's observations above is that Sri

Ramana makes no reference to Samadhi anywhere above!. Second, while

Sri Ramana does talk about CHITTA VRITTI NIRODHA Sri Bhaskar-ji, you

fail to point out that Sri Ramana is not criticising the Samadhi of

PY but the state of stupor.

 

bhaskar :

 

Ha..Ha..this is really funny observation prabhuji..sorry...

 

Firstly, ramaNa clearly telling us here *yOga* teaches *chitta vrutti

nirOdha*..& as you know in PY in the very first pAda (samAdhi pAda) the

second sUtra is *yOgAh chitta vrutti nirOdhA*...do you think ramaNa talking

about something else here?? According to patanjali, chitta vrutti

nirOdha...(suppression of not all vrutti-s..only rajO guNa & tamO guNa

vrutti-s for gaining saMprajnAtha samAdhi & suppression of all types of

vrutti-s including satva guNa for gaining AS..) is the direct means to

atain AS/NS...

 

Secondly, even if you think ramaNa talks ONLY about CVN & not samAdhi per

se, you have to admit that ramaNa is telling us that CVN is useless....that

means PY's second sUtra in the first pAda is *useless* is it not?? Are you

agree with me prabhuji?? So, you have to tell us which are the sUtra-s

useful to ramaNa & which are the sUtra-s are useless...as you yourself

noted that for ramaNa CVN which yOga teaches is useless..

 

Thirdly, can you please explain me where PY teaches us samAdhi without the

aid of CVN?? If CVN is itself usless according to ramaNa (atleast in the

above context) how can you say the resultant samAdhi is useful according to

ramaNa?? Kindly think leisurely before *picking* prabhuji. That is my

humble request to you.

 

Finally, in my earlier mail I've quoted ramaNa (Oh no not again :-))

wherein he explicitly says being in kEvala NS for thousands of years is

useless... here ramaNa is fortunately not talking about CVN to pick me

again :-)) but explicitly mentions about time bound, kartru tantra

pradhAna temporary state of AS/NS. would you mind to comment on that

prabhuji??

 

SR prabhuji:

 

There is a world of difference between the state of stupor (laya)

and the state of Samadhi which Sri Sankara and PY explain as the

state wherein the Sadhaka is established in his own nature (Atma) as

pure consciousness, completely bereft of the superimposition of

Avidya!

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji do I have to point out to you where PY itself talks about laya??

do I have to drag your attention to where shankara talks about laya & its

meaning as bhAdita jnAna unlike PY in prasthAna trayi?? Kindly note the

highest achievement i.e. AS/NS in PY still carries the mental residues of

performer of AS/NS... The complete eradication of ajnAna avidya is the

result of Atmaikatva jnAna that is what shankara teaches in kAtaka shruti

bhAshya which you've quoted below...whereas in PY it is not *complete*

annihilation of vrutti-s & vAsana-s...PY does not grant complete vAsana

kshaya for a jnAni, it says though AS bereft of ajnAna, the *experiencer*

of AS/NS carries residual vAsana-s into that state!! I hope you've

completely read the book you were referring earlier...The Science of Mind

Control, commentary on YS by Mr. Umesh. I'd like to bring more surprises

from this book to you in my next mail in Part-IV...since you are holding

this book as pramANa for PYS, I hope whatever author says in this book gets

your concurrence..

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Sri Bhaskar-ji, you are asking members of this forum to always refer

to Sri Sankara bhasya:

 

bhaskar :

 

YES but am I asking something which is out of this world prabhuji:-))

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Please take your own advice Sri Bhaskar prabhu-ji and read Sri

Sankara's commentary on the Katha Upanishad mantra " yadaa

paJNchaavatishhThante..".

 

bhaskar :

 

I've read shankara bhAshya completely & discussed about it with my guruji

as well & I have firm conviction that it is not patanjali's ashtAnga yOga

but it is adhyAtma yOga of vEdAnta. Kindly see the first valli where

shankara talks about *adhyAtma yOga* & process of merging the gross with

subtle..compare this with kArikA-s manOnigraha / asparsha yOga...you will

come to know what I am trying to tell here. Otherwise please wait for my

next part of the series..(unfortunately still I am not able to key in due

to time constraints & limited availability of system) I'll show you how

shankara's/shruti-s adhyAtma yOga differs from PY.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

You will see that Sri Sankara is not talking about any 'inert' state

or any state of stupor but one remaining as pure consciousness.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes, that is what I've been telling here since the time immemorial :-))

 

SR prabhuji:

 

That is exactly what Patanjali Yoga Sutras also states in the sutra 'Tada

drastuh Svarupe Avasthanam' ? then the Seer (that is the Atma) is

established in its own nature.

 

bhaskar :

 

My dear prabhuji, I doubt whether you have completely read the book *the

science of mind control*....you are quoting here third sUtra of first pAda

right?? I dont know how you are comfortably mixing this sUtra-s

interpretation with advaita's samyak jnAna. The svarUpa what PY speaks

here is not that of Atmaikatva jnAna of advaita..it talks about *chit

shakti* of the performer (individual) which is bereft of vrutti-s...but

container of mental residues!! Moreover, the author of that book elsewhere

says even this avastha i.e. AS/NS is of two types...if you agree PY's AS/NS

= shankara's Atma jnAna, then you will have to agree that shankara's

guNAtIta samak jnAna of jnAni is of two types...would you kindly point me

where shankara talks about two different types of Atma jnAna prabhuji??

how funny it is thinking in those lines!!!

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Moreover the state of stupor is not only nowhere close to Samadhi

but is considered as a BIG OBSTACLE to Samadhi by none other than

Sri Gaudapadacharya.

 

bhaskar :

 

thanks for your quotes from kArika...but you failed to show me that is what

been said in PY also..As a matter of fact its me who is trying to show you

PY is not vEdAnta...prabhuji, you have to show me PY=vEdAnta...for that you

have to quote parallely PYS also where you find vEdanta. Anyway, it is

welcome sign atleast finally you started quoting shankara & gaudapAda

instead of later advaita Acharya-s :-))

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Given all that, it is perfectly obvious that

 

(1) the state of Stupor (laya) is NOT the highest Samadhi

 

bhaskar :

 

So, CVN what patanjali says & resultant samAdhi is not strictly vEdAnta's

atmaikatva jnAna.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

(2) Chitta Vritti Nirodha that ONLY results in the state of Stupor

(but does not proceed to the highest Samadhi) is useless both from

Sri Ramana's point of view and that of Sri Sankara

 

bhaskar :

 

but it is a running currency in PYS...sUtra 2 (yOgAh chitta vrutti nirOdha)

in first pAda & various description of samAdhi-s are the standing example

for special affiliation of PY to CVN.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Now if you again read Sri Ramana's observation below, doesn't it

make perfect sense?

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji, if you openly consider what has been said above, your perspective

would change.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

Sri Ramana is NOT criticising the Samadhi of the Patanjali Yoga in

the above observation but the state of stupor.

 

bhaskar :

 

As confirmed earlier, even we, shankara siddhAnta followers donot

criticizing samAdhi of PY...but dont try to bring it to vEdAnta & say AS/NS

itself is shruti-s Atmaikatva jnAna. As a separate school we do respect

yOga shAstra & its philosophy whole heartedly.

 

SR prabhuji:

 

And His message that 'the state of stupor is useless' is in perfect

agreement with Sri Gaudapadacharya's words, Sri Sankara Bhasya and the Yoga

Sutras!

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes ofcourse, it is in perfect agreement with gaudapAdAchArya & shankara

but not in line with PYS...can you please quote the exact sUtra of

patanjali where it is said that *the state of manOnigraha & resultant

manOlaya is *useless* ??

 

SR prabhuji:

 

So, please refrain from on-going propaganda of labelling something

which clearly is NOT Samadhi as Samadhi and mis-quoting Sri Ramana and

others to prove your wrong conclusions!

 

bhaskar :

 

Thanks for your kind advice prabhuji...definitely I'll keep this in my mind

:-))

 

Kindly forgive me if I hurt your feelings/sentiments during

discussion...Kindly be rest assured that it is not quite intended.

 

regards

Sundar Rajan

 

Humble praNAms onceagain,

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Dear bhaskar,

 

It would help me, and possibly others, to enjoy your posts more if you were

to find a way to distinguish between conversations you are quoting from

previous posts and your current comments. Your method works well on your

original reply as you put the name of the person speaking, their comments,

then your own name and reply. Example:

 

SR prabhuji:

 

.......

 

Bhaskar:

 

.......

 

SR prabhuji:

 

.......

 

Bhaskar:

 

.......

 

And so on.

 

However, by the time the other person has replied using your method and you

have replied again with that same method but without any sign as to what is

the original conversation and what is now the current reply it gets very

difficult to follow! You could just try putting [[....]] at the start and

finish of the conversation you are quoting and write your current reply as

normal. Anything would help, to be honest!

 

With best wishes,

 

Peter