Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Namaste. Shailendra Bhatnagar asks: What is the exact nature of Self-realization ? How does the world appear to a Self-realized person ? How does it feel to be in the company of a Self-realized person ? Is it similar to the peace and serenity that one experiences during Satsangh or after Omkar ? Is Gita chapter 5 shloka-pair 8 and 9 a description of a self-realized person? Yes, Shailendra-ji, it is. Arjuna asked the samwe type of question (B.G. II-54) and Krishna answered him (II-55 to 72). But a Self-Realized Person may not go about saying that he is self-realized. Already Dennis-ji has pointed this out. You may also refer to my mail of long ago: http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m5124.html and the thread of ‘jIvan-mukta’ to which it belonged. Descriptions of a Jivan-mukta (self-realized person) abound profusely in the literature. And they actually cover a wide range of the spectrum. Just as samples, for your nidhidhyAsana, here are two interesting descriptions, each on a different side of the spectrum. >From Viveka-chuDAmaNi: (#426): Freed from awareness of any external object by reason of his ever-being brahman, consuming only what is needed for bodily sustenance, proferred to him by others like one in sleep or like a child, looking at this world when he comes to external sight like one seen in a dream, remains the blessed one enjoying infinite merit. He is to be honoured on earth. Here the words “like one in sleep” (= “nidrALuvat”) and “like a child” (= “bAlavat”) seem to be significant. Because my father used to refer to these two words every time the topic came in his lectures. He used to refer to the following experience that all of us have with little kids of four or five. The kid goes to sleep without drinking the glass of milk that the did is supposed to take every night before going to bed. And the mother wakes the kid up with a little force and in that half-sleepy state, the kid drinks or is made to drink that glass of milk and then again resumes his/her sleep. In the morning, the kid has no memory of having had the drink of milk the previous night. In fact the kid asks: “Mom, I did not drink milk last night. Why did you not give me?” On the other extreme end of the spectrum is the following description in Shivananda-lahari (#81): Oh Lord! To spend some time in offering archanas to Your lotus feet, to spend some time in dhyAna and samAdhi and in prostrations to You,, to spend some time in listening to stories about You, to spend again some time in viewing Your beautiful Forms and in prayerful stotras to them – Who ever thus spends his time and enjoys the beatific immersement in You, is he not already a jIvan-mukta? I have a personal experience of seeing the Kanchi Mahaswamigal (1894-1994) in around 1989. I was visiting the Kanchi Mutt for a darshan of the three Acharyas. It was an evening (around 7PM) when the Kamakshi deity of Kanchipuram was having the ten-day annual festival and that was the day of the “Kudirai-vAhanaM” (i.e., the deity would be taken in a procession seated on the palanquin riding a horse). And it appears before the deity is taken round the town for the procession, they had the habit of bringing the palanquin to the gate of the Kanchi Mutt so that the Mahaswamigal could have a darshan of the deity. And thus the procession appears at the gate of the Mutt. I was totally unaware of the day’s routine. I was just mingling and conversing with a few persons inside the Mutt hoping to be able to see the Mahaswamigal in due course. But suddenly I heard a bustle of movement; everybody was rushing to the gate. And then I knew something was happening there and I also moved with the crowd. Lo and behold! The sight that I saw there was scintillating. The Mahaswamigal had problems of vision those days. Maybe he could see very little. So he was there standing at the gate almost very near the palanquin of the divine deity. Heavy Searchlights were being focussed on the deity for the Acharya to see Her clearly. Of course She had been decorated to the fullest, what with gold and diamond and pearl and ruby. And what an abundance of flowers of all colours on Her. The Acharya was standing on the ground with his hands cuffing over his eyes for him to see clearly. Maybe on one side the lights were blinding his eyes. He was straining hard to have a vision of what was standing befoire him. He was moving his head this side and that side to optimise his vision. Everyone was silent . It was difficult to decide, for us spectators, whether the Acharya was there to have darshan of Meenakshi or whether Meenakshi was there to have a darshan of the Acharya! This serene silence and the drama of the Mahaswamigal slapping his cheeks in token of having darsan of the Goddess continued for probably full four or five minutes or so. And at last he turned to walk inside the mutt and the disciples led him on. I came back to earth realizing just then that I had been witnessing all along a divinely scene which I can never forget! Mark Ye, all devotees!. What great necessity was there for this jIvan-mukta to have a darshan of the deity with such great difficulty ? And what did he achieve? But that is the characteristic of a jIvan-mukta! PraNAms to all the jIvan-muktas of the world. profvk Prof. V. Krishnamurthy New on my website, particularly for beginners in Hindu philosophy: Hinduism for the next generation: http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/contentsbeach10.html Free will and Divine will - a dialogue: http://www.geocities.com/profvk/HNG/FWDW.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote: > Namaste. > > Shailendra Bhatnagar asks: > What is the exact nature of Self-realization ? How does > the world appear to a Self-realized person ? How does it > feel to be in the company of a Self-realized person ? Is > it similar to the peace and serenity that one experiences > during Satsangh or after Omkar ? Is Gita chapter 5 > shloka-pair 8 and 9 a description of a self-realized > person? > > Yes, Shailendra-ji, it is. Arjuna asked the samwe type of > question (B.G. II-54) and Krishna answered him (II-55 to > 72). But a Self-Realized Person may not go about saying > that he is self-realized. Already Dennis-ji has pointed > this out. You may also refer to my mail of long ago: > http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m5124.html > > and the thread of `jIvan-mukta' to which it belonged. >> From Viveka-chuDAmaNi: (#426): > > Freed from awareness of any external object by reason of > his ever-being brahman, consuming only what is needed for > bodily sustenance, proferred to him by others like one in > sleep or like a child, looking at this world when he comes > to external sight like one seen in a dream, remains the > blessed one enjoying infinite merit. He is to be honoured > on earth. > > Here the words "like one in sleep" (= "nidrALuvat") and > "like a child" (= "bAlavat") seem to be significant. > Because my father used to refer to these two words every > time the topic came in his lectures. Namaste Vk, This seems the closest to what I imagine, based on such sayings from the Sages. The first line is the most informing; 'Freed from awareness of any external object by reason of his ever-being Brahman'. This indicates to me that only prarabda karma in the illusion motivates the remaining body/mind of the Mukta. With the body dropping it all disappears completely as never having happened, which is indicated by the line Freed from awareness etc etc...ONS..Tony. P.S. Only one Mukta can recognise another Mukta.IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Namaste Prof VK-ji, I very much appreciate your response. With kind regards, Shailendra "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote: Namaste. Yes, Shailendra-ji, it is. Arjuna asked the samwe type of question (B.G. II-54) and Krishna answered him (II-55 to 72). But a Self-Realized Person may not go about saying that he is self-realized. Already Dennis-ji has pointed this out. You may also refer to my mail of long ago: http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m5124.html and the thread of ‘jIvan-mukta’ to which it belonged. Descriptions of a Jivan-mukta (self-realized person) abound profusely in the literature. And they actually cover a wide range of the spectrum. Just as samples, for your nidhidhyAsana, here are two interesting descriptions, each on a different side of the spectrum. >From Viveka-chuDAmaNi: (#426): Freed from awareness of any external object by reason of his ever-being brahman, consuming only what is needed for bodily sustenance, proferred to him by others like one in sleep or like a child, looking at this world when he comes to external sight like one seen in a dream, remains the blessed one enjoying infinite merit. He is to be honoured on earth. Here the words “like one in sleep” (= “nidrALuvat”) and “like a child” (= “bAlavat”) seem to be significant. Because my father used to refer to these two words every time the topic came in his lectures. He used to refer to the following experience that all of us have with little kids of four or five. The kid goes to sleep without drinking the glass of milk that the did is supposed to take every night before going to bed. And the mother wakes the kid up with a little force and in that half-sleepy state, the kid drinks or is made to drink that glass of milk and then again resumes his/her sleep. In the morning, the kid has no memory of having had the drink of milk the previous night. In fact the kid asks: “Mom, I did not drink milk last night. Why did you not give me?” On the other extreme end of the spectrum is the following description in Shivananda-lahari (#81): Oh Lord! To spend some time in offering archanas to Your lotus feet, to spend some time in dhyAna and samAdhi and in prostrations to You,, to spend some time in listening to stories about You, to spend again some time in viewing Your beautiful Forms and in prayerful stotras to them – Who ever thus spends his time and enjoys the beatific immersement in You, is he not already a jIvan-mukta? I have a personal experience of seeing the Kanchi Mahaswamigal (1894-1994) in around 1989. I was visiting the Kanchi Mutt for a darshan of the three Acharyas. It was an evening (around 7PM) when the Kamakshi deity of Kanchipuram was having the ten-day annual festival and that was the day of the “Kudirai-vAhanaM” (i.e., the deity would be taken in a procession seated on the palanquin riding a horse). And it appears before the deity is taken round the town for the procession, they had the habit of bringing the palanquin to the gate of the Kanchi Mutt so that the Mahaswamigal could have a darshan of the deity. And thus the procession appears at the gate of the Mutt. I was totally unaware of the day’s routine. I was just mingling and conversing with a few persons inside the Mutt hoping to be able to see the Mahaswamigal in due course. But suddenly I heard a bustle of movement; everybody was rushing to the gate. And then I knew something was happening there and I also moved with the crowd. Lo and behold! The sight that I saw there was scintillating. The Mahaswamigal had problems of vision those days. Maybe he could see very little. So he was there standing at the gate almost very near the palanquin of the divine deity. Heavy Searchlights were being focussed on the deity for the Acharya to see Her clearly. Of course She had been decorated to the fullest, what with gold and diamond and pearl and ruby. And what an abundance of flowers of all colours on Her. The Acharya was standing on the ground with his hands cuffing over his eyes for him to see clearly. Maybe on one side the lights were blinding his eyes. He was straining hard to have a vision of what was standing befoire him. He was moving his head this side and that side to optimise his vision. Everyone was silent . It was difficult to decide, for us spectators, whether the Acharya was there to have darshan of Meenakshi or whether Meenakshi was there to have a darshan of the Acharya! This serene silence and the drama of the Mahaswamigal slapping his cheeks in token of having darsan of the Goddess continued for probably full four or five minutes or so. And at last he turned to walk inside the mutt and the disciples led him on. I came back to earth realizing just then that I had been witnessing all along a divinely scene which I can never forget! Mark Ye, all devotees!. What great necessity was there for this jIvan-mukta to have a darshan of the deity with such great difficulty ? And what did he achieve? But that is the characteristic of a jIvan-mukta! PraNAms to all the jIvan-muktas of the world. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2005 Report Share Posted March 30, 2005 Namaste Prof. V. Krishnamurthy and All, thank you for your answers and beautiful messages..... Regards peace and love Marc -- In advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote: > Namaste. > > Shailendra Bhatnagar asks: > What is the exact nature of Self-realization ? How does > the world appear to a Self-realized person ? How does it > feel to be in the company of a Self-realized person ? Is > it similar to the peace and serenity that one experiences > during Satsangh or after Omkar ? Is Gita chapter 5 > shloka-pair 8 and 9 a description of a self-realized > person? > > Yes, Shailendra-ji, it is. Arjuna asked the samwe type of > question (B.G. II-54) and Krishna answered him (II-55 to > 72). But a Self-Realized Person may not go about saying > that he is self-realized. Already Dennis-ji has pointed > this out. You may also refer to my mail of long ago: > http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m5124.html > > and the thread of `jIvan-mukta' to which it belonged. > > Descriptions of a Jivan-mukta (self-realized person) abound > profusely in the literature. And they actually cover a > wide range of the spectrum. Just as samples, for your > nidhidhyAsana, here are two interesting descriptions, each > on a different side of the spectrum. > > From Viveka-chuDAmaNi: (#426): > > Freed from awareness of any external object by reason of > his ever-being brahman, consuming only what is needed for > bodily sustenance, proferred to him by others like one in > sleep or like a child, looking at this world when he comes > to external sight like one seen in a dream, remains the > blessed one enjoying infinite merit. He is to be honoured > on earth. > > Here the words "like one in sleep" (= "nidrALuvat") and > "like a child" (= "bAlavat") seem to be significant. > Because my father used to refer to these two words every > time the topic came in his lectures. > > He used to refer to the following experience that all of us > have with little kids of four or five. The kid goes to > sleep without drinking the glass of milk that the did is > supposed to take every night before going to bed. And the > mother wakes the kid up with a little force and in that > half-sleepy state, the kid drinks or is made to drink that > glass of milk and then again resumes his/her sleep. In the > morning, the kid has no memory of having had the drink of > milk the previous night. In fact the kid asks: "Mom, I did > not drink milk last night. Why did you not give me?" > > On the other extreme end of the spectrum is the following > description in Shivananda-lahari (#81): > > Oh Lord! To spend some time in offering archanas to Your > lotus feet, to spend some time in dhyAna and samAdhi and in > prostrations to You,, to spend some time in listening to > stories about You, to spend again some time in viewing Your > beautiful Forms and in prayerful stotras to them – Who ever > thus spends his time and enjoys the beatific immersement > in You, is he not already a jIvan-mukta? > > I have a personal experience of seeing the Kanchi > Mahaswamigal (1894-1994) in around 1989. I was visiting > the Kanchi Mutt for a darshan of the three Acharyas. It was > an evening (around 7PM) when the Kamakshi deity of > Kanchipuram was having the ten-day annual festival and that > was the day of the "Kudirai-vAhanaM" (i.e., the deity would > be taken in a procession seated on the palanquin riding a > horse). And it appears before the deity is taken round the > town for the procession, they had the habit of bringing > the palanquin to the gate of the Kanchi Mutt so that the > Mahaswamigal could have a darshan of the deity. And thus > the procession appears at the gate of the Mutt. I was > totally unaware of the day's routine. I was just mingling > and conversing with a few persons inside the Mutt hoping > to be able to see the Mahaswamigal in due course. But > suddenly I heard a bustle of movement; everybody was > rushing to the gate. And then I knew something was > happening there and I also moved with the crowd. Lo and > behold! The sight that I saw there was scintillating. The > Mahaswamigal had problems of vision those days. Maybe he > could see very little. So he was there standing at the gate > almost very near the palanquin of the divine deity. Heavy > Searchlights were being focussed on the deity for the > Acharya to see Her clearly. Of course She had been > decorated to the fullest, what with gold and diamond and > pearl and ruby. And what an abundance of flowers of all > colours on Her. The Acharya was standing on the ground > with his hands cuffing over his eyes for him to see > clearly. Maybe on one side the lights were blinding his > eyes. He was straining hard to have a vision of what was > standing befoire him. He was moving his head this side and > that side to optimise his vision. Everyone was silent . It > was difficult to decide, for us spectators, whether the > Acharya was there to have darshan of Meenakshi or whether > Meenakshi was there to have a darshan of the Acharya! This > serene silence and the drama of the Mahaswamigal slapping > his cheeks in token of having darsan of the Goddess > continued for probably full four or five minutes or so. And > at last he turned to walk inside the mutt and the disciples > led him on. I came back to earth realizing just then that > I had been witnessing all along a divinely scene which I > can never forget! > > Mark Ye, all devotees!. What great necessity was there for > this jIvan-mukta to have a darshan of the deity with such > great difficulty ? And what did he achieve? But that is > the characteristic of a jIvan-mukta! > > PraNAms to all the jIvan-muktas of the world. > profvk > > > > Prof. V. Krishnamurthy > New on my website, particularly for beginners in Hindu philosophy: > > Hinduism for the next generation: http://www.geocities.com/profvk/gohitvip/contentsbeach10.html > > Free will and Divine will - a dialogue: > http://www.geocities.com/profvk/HNG/FWDW.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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