Guest guest Posted March 31, 2005 Report Share Posted March 31, 2005 Hi Atagrasin, There is no intention to 'hide anything under rugs'. The essay is already being discussed openly on other lists (at least SatsangDiary, on which it originated). I merely pointed out that the manner of questioning was not appropriate for *this* list. Certainly the arguments of the article are not at all 'devastating' for traditional Advaita. All that they suggest is a lack of appreciation for the relative values of the teaching methods. << I have found a lot of contradictions in your article, I'm ready to share my findings.>> Not on this list - the original article has not been seen by anyone else and is not directly relevant to Shankara's teaching. What I would like to suggest is that anyone who wishes to write a formal essay, putting forward their reasoned (and polite!) views on the Traditional versus Neo-Advaita debate do so and send them to me. I will be happy to construct a set of web pages at my site devoted specifically to this topic. I will clear the final page with the author before publishing. Chitteranjan-ji has already contributed another of his excellent essays (more poetic than usual!), with which I would very much like to begin this. You ask "Do you will go to include the Tony Parsons article about traditional Advaita with the one's from you and Alan in your site? Just for comparations purposes?" I would certainly be happy to do so. In fact he did not send it to me - I only received it indirectly - but I will contact him to request this. << Do you know that ShaMkara was a lover of debates...>> Good point - and I certainly agree. << The Pure Advaita approach bypasses the mind...>> I understand what you are saying here but I think you delude yourself on the crucial point - it is not possible to 'bypass the mind'. The teacher speaks, the seeker hears. Even if what is spoken is very short and simple, it still takes the same route. << The point is who is it that is going to choose to make the effort? How can a illusion dispel itself?>> It is only at the pAramArthika level that all these arguments make sense (and it is not possible to *have* an argument at that level since there are not two to take part). In the phenomenal realm, there *are* people who *are* ignorant and need a process of some sort to remove this ignorance. All this is only an illusion in reality. When you are in the dream, you have no choice but to follow the rules of the dream. Regarding the discussion about adhyAropa and apavAda, you ask: "Covered some months ago? Anything that need to be remembered can't be the Truth.This Itsness, Being timeless can never be achieved or contained. It's continuously available. It's always at hand,in an eternal state of readiness. It is already what is as it is." All I was pointing out is that the rest of the 1100+ members on the list have already heard all about this and don't want to do again. The messages are all available in the archives. Best wishes, Dennis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote: > Hi Atagrasin, > << I have found a lot of contradictions in your article, I'm ready to share > my findings.>> > > Not on this list No problem I will respect that. >You ask "Do you will go to include the Tony Parsons article about > traditional Advaita with the one's from you and Alan in your site? > I would certainly be happy to do so. > << The Pure Advaita approach bypasses the mind...>> > > I understand what you are saying here but I think you delude yourself on the > crucial point - it is not possible to 'bypass the mind'. >From here, mind is only the multitude of thoughts.There is no mind. The term `mind' is used in a somewhat confusing way to represent the thoughts appearing and disappearing presently in awareness, and so seeming to constitute a stream of thoughts. This apparent stream of thoughts when seen as single images appearing and disappearing is not problematic, but when labeled `mind',it is presumed to constitute an actual permanent entity. > << The point is who is it that is going to choose to make the effort? How > can a illusion dispel itself?>> > > It is only at the pAramArthika level that all these arguments make sense >In the phenomenal realm, there *are* people who *are* > ignorant and need a process of some sort to remove this ignorance. All this > is only an illusion in reality. When you are in the dream, you have no > choice but to follow the rules of the dream. There is not escape from the dream.You are correct "in the dream you have no choice but to follow the rules of the dream",now we are talking.You are not the dreamer but only a dreamed character reacting and responding from a set of conditioned and historical belief systems.In this "Divine dream" some characters seems to be ignorant others seems to be sages but this dream has absolutely no purpose other than the awakening TO IT [not from it].The awakening itself is part of the dream and completely beyong the graps of any individual effort,path,process or belief from the part of the character. Atagrasin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote: > Hi Atagrasin, > << The point is who is it that is going to choose to make the effort? How > can a illusion dispel itself?>> > > It is only at the pAramArthika level that all these arguments make sense > (and it is not possible to *have* an argument at that level since there are > not two to take part). Namaste This dialogue between Altagrasin and Dennis reminds me of the following question which frequently arises in the discussion of advaita by scholars: A person X is sleeping. Another person Y comes and wakes him up without physically touching him. How does Y wake X up? Y calls "Hey, X, get up; X, get up". And X gets up. Now tell me. Did X hear the call while he was asleep? No, it cannot be. Did X hear the call, after he woke up? Then how did he get up? The philosophy of advaita says, that the two things, namely,, hearing the call and getting up, were simultaneous. So also they say, the realisation that I am IT and moksha are simultaneous. This, they say is the explanation for illusion dispelling itself from itself by a 'call' from the guru! PraNAms to all the advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2005 Report Share Posted April 2, 2005 advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk> wrote: > > advaitin, "Dennis Waite" <dwaite@a...> wrote: > > Hi Atagrasin, > > << The point is who is it that is going to choose to make the > effort? How > > can a illusion dispel itself?>> > > > > It is only at the pAramArthika level that all these arguments make > sense > > (and it is not possible to *have* an argument at that level since > there are > > not two to take part). > > Namaste > > This dialogue between Altagrasin and Dennis reminds me of the > following question which frequently arises in the discussion of > advaita by scholars: > > A person X is sleeping. Another person Y comes and wakes him up > without physically touching him. How does Y wake X up? Y > calls "Hey, X, get up; X, get up". And X gets up. Now tell me. > Did X hear the call while he was asleep? No, it cannot be. Did X > hear the call, after he woke up? Then how did he get up? The > philosophy of advaita says, that the two things, namely,, hearing > the call and getting up, were simultaneous. So also they say, the > realisation that I am IT and moksha are simultaneous. This, they > say is the explanation for illusion dispelling itself from itself > by a 'call' from the guru! > > > PraNAms to all the advaitins. > profvk Namaste VK et al,IMO, I gave not deleted anything for my response is to all of it. First of all how does a sleeping person wake up on hearing 'wake up' etc. Well if they are in the dream plane it will be easier, if they are in sushupti or deep sleep one may have to repeat the command or touch the person. I have found that in meditation or yoga nidra or whatever it is that happens with me, I will awake from complete unconsciousness. This is because I started doing meditation many years ago I programmed myself to awaken to the phone or somelike. So provided I follow the same procedure into meditation the command doesn't need to be repeated..Why? Because even though my consciousness may be in sushupti or dhyana, some part of my lower mind and kosas is not. Medititation or deep sleep/sushupti is a thought about one thing or one thought of ignorance. Samadhi is something else altogether above all thought, depending on the level----savikalpa or nirvikalpa. It has all to do with vibrations, being attracted to like and being attached. This is why Devadas wakes up everyday as Devadas, he still has samskaras and vibrations called Devadas. If these sankaras or vibrations don't exist then one is realised of course. Now they say realisation or Moksha happens like the Sun rising although one can see the sun starting to rise with the Dawn. But it bursts into full life immediately. A Guru or rather Sadguru can only be a Jivanmukta. All other Gurus are really teachers or Saints, that may or may not be returned to help---Avatars, Bhodisattvas etc. You can tell a true or Sadguru by the fact that he/she encourages less action/activity not more. A Jivanmukta is a realised person an Avatar has preserved a thought to return and help, so isn't fully realised. Some would say a dweller in the Brahma loka. The Guru that helps you to realisation is in the end result You, Guru/God/You are the same. It seems to me there are two instantaneous steps to moksha. Realising that we are Praneaswara/Saguna and at the same time realising Nirguna. Which is the only Truth. This is what is meant by Jesus saying 'The Way to the Father is through Me. The way to Nirguna is through Sakti-Saguna, and on realisation all Sakti-Prana-Karma-Saguna disappears as never having happened at all...........ONS...Tony.IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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