Guest guest Posted May 11, 2005 Report Share Posted May 11, 2005 Namaste' all, It is most gratifying and humbling to have received such wonderful responses to my concern. Thank you all. I am left still with the impression that "practicing advaitins" in the Shankara lineage make obeisance to some higher "authority". The essential premise (or so I thought) of "not-two" means that all references to: a goal; a means to that goal; progress towards that goal; superior understanding of this process of the means to that goal; and/or someone who has "achieved" that goal, must be erroneous. If we are to correctly apperceive the truth of noumenal existence, then the adherence to dualistic methods to do so would seem (to this body-mind complex) to be a mutually exclusive function. How can a process that builds up the ego (or at least certainly references the ego) apprehend the egoless nature of reality? Mustn't we drop any practice that first assumes that one needs or lacks something or anything? For surely is this not the basis of all dualistic teachings? Shanti, reid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Namaste Anil, yes....by any positiv Karma....this prerequisites will lead the consciousness of the mind....to prepare the real journey of life... i imagine that already it's good Karma ....for people who were born in a spiritual culture.....like India as for example... didn't have this chance until now.....or....who knows.... the Yoga path remain "mysterious" in cultures of the west.... even here, there is rarely an association with the deep philosophic teaching of Vedanta...and Yoga you talk about "Ashtanga Yoga".... this has appeared since some years......personnaly i don't know much about...... but it seem that every few years there is like a "wave" coming from the east....bringing "new" kind of techniques and teachings..... people are used to change techniques.....just like they change the pair of shoes .... for a real desire to live the truth...to get liberation from endless illusions.....to seek "God" in the whole perception of the world..... to take responsibilty for the knowledge of the truth..... this is not easy when one is even not used to take responsibility for the own ignorance..... we talked about Faith yesterday..... Faith is maybe the deepest "prerequisite" which is necessary to develop.... Faith in the pure existance within us....in the Self..... the essence of the scriptures....of Vedanta.....need to be lived.... in every breath....constantly......one day ......then ....the identification with this limited ego-mind....will disappear..... Regards peace and love Marc advaitin, Anil Bharatey <selfanil> wrote: > Shri Marc, > > There are prerequsites for any study of Shastra and any Undertaking of Upasana or Vidya. > > "NityaNityaVivekadi - SadhanChatrushtaya" is prerequisete to learn Vedanta. Also for Jnan, the necessity of "Chitta Shuddhi" has been insisted upon by Shastra which is acquired by various ways that include many austerities and Karma, Bhakti, Upasana, Vrata, Vaikalaya etc. > > In absence of prereuisites knowledge of "Adwaita" shall be " WachaRambhanoVikaro". > > The fruits like "Tarati ShokAtmavit" (One gets freedom from miseries) or "Tameva Viditwati Mrutumeti" (Knowing Brahma only, (eva) one crosses the death), told by mother Shruti shall not be available to those who do not care for prerequisites. > > We know that Ashtanga Yoga which is being taught all over world without the prerequisites like Yama, Niyam, Ishwara Pranisdhan etc. have in many places brought almost disgrace to the word Yoga. > > True seekers go the Shastra way. > > Yours > > Anil > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Namaste: We are happy to note that you are pleased with the responses that you received. We are also sorry to note that the responses did not clear all your doubts. Let me try to explain my understanding and I don't guarantee that this will necessarily clear the stored impressions on your mind. The questions that you have raised could be considered as the basis of dualistic teachings if we look at it with a dualistic frame of mind. Those who have 'faith and conviction' on the Shankara's advaita frame work, will be able to look at without observing contradictions! Once a disciple went to Bhagawan Ramana Maharishi and asked him, "Can you show the God?" Ramana Maharisi smilingly replied, "Suppose if I show you the God, can you see Him?" His answer is very subtle and if you contemplate on what he said, then you will be able to recognize that the "higher authority" is nothing but the "Real You!" Swami Chinmayanandaji call this as "Self-unfoldment" (I suggest you buy and read this interesting book, available at vedanta book stores or at the Chinmaya Mission - http://www.chinmaya.org). The fundamental idea of "advaita" is not to change our life but only to change our "attitude toward our life." If someone has double vision, then he/she can correct that to single vision with the help of a doctor and a pair of new glasses. Person with the dualistic attitude can correct his/her attitude by seeking help. Shankara's prescription for change essentially requires sadhana (sincere efforts), shraddha (faith with conviction along with devotion and dedication)and vairaghya (detachment to worldly attractions). The person with the change in attitude become a "Yogi" who is able to get rid of his/her egoistic (dualistic and pluralistic) tendencies. The entire Bhagavad Gita can be considered as manual for our self-unfoldment. Honestly, we can't unfold the Self by just reading Gita or listening to someone. It is the other way around, Gita has to go through our mind atleast once! Essentially the scripture implies that Self can only be unfolded by Self and it can never be reached by seeking. All that we can do is to facilitate the "SELF" to unfold the "SELF" by removing all the obstacles. The biggest obstacle is "ego" - our tendency keep our awareness to the limited and changing entity, the body-mind- intellect! A very important verse from Gita may be quite relevent to understand self-unfoldment and this is from chapter 9 and verse # 22: Ananyash Chinthayanto maam, ye jannah pariupaasathe Thesham nithyabhi yukthanam yoga kshemam vahamyaham (Gita Chapter 9, Verse 22) Whoever among devotees dedicates all acts to Me with no other thought, whoever meditates on Me, serves Me, Worships Me, Remembers Me, know that I am always with them, ever providing for them. I pledge to bear the burden of the Yogakshemam (welfare and security)! The "Me" here is a reference to "Self" and this Yogakshemam is provided to all those who acquire the following virtues (same as saying all those who discard their egoistic tendencies): • Do no harm to anybody in thought, word or deed. • Do your work unselfishly and free yourself from bondage. • Learn to work like a master, not a as slave. • Be unattached to work, do the best and accept the outcome without reservations. • Learn to work with humility as the Servant of servants. • Have the firm faith that selfless service is the greatest spiritual Sadhana. • Dedicate the efforts to God with the firm conviction that Grace is relative to the efforts. • Select services on activities that meet one's physical and mental capacity. • The true test of Selfless Seva is by deriving fulfillment and happiness during the Seva. • An essential quality of a Sadhaka is to keep a pure heart free from greed and hostility. • Define the service parameters and make sure that they fully accomplish the goals. • The essential ingredient of any service is Love and fill up the heart with full of love. • Realize that pain is inevitable in any service and take efforts to avoid needless sufferings. • Be aware that all services should be done spontaneously with a compassionate heart. • Remove and burn egoistic tendencies while doing service to the poorer and less fortunate. • Any act of service needs to be done selflessly and never think of tomorrow, do it now. • The highest charity that the seeker can offer is the removal of all evil thoughts within. • Get ready to accept the fact that no service can ever be completed without hurdles. • Do not pass judgment on the credentials of those who look for the service. • Accept the golden rule that an act of service does not contribute either success or failure Warmest regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, "cod1ybab" <cod1ybab> wrote: > Namaste' all, It is most gratifying and humbling to have received such > wonderful responses to my concern. Thank you all. > I am left still with the impression that "practicing advaitins" in the > Shankara lineage make obeisance to some higher "authority". The > essential premise (or so I thought) of "not-two" means that all > references to: ... >...... > For surely is this not the basis of all dualistic teachings? > Shanti, reid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Namaste: In my previous posting, I have quoted the verse 22 of chapter 9 to illustrate how the "non-duality" can be maintained when an advaitin worships the Almighty. I couldn't provide full justification on the interpretation of this important verse. Fortunately, Swami Dayananda Saraswati of Arsha Vidya Gurukulam has provided the exact commentary that I was looking for. His message is quite profound and hopefully will help us all to understand the role of "Isvara" in advaita. With my warmest regards, Ram Chandran Note: As always, the list is thankful to Swamiji for giving me permission through email for posting notes from the Gita Homestudy Notes. These notes contain over 2000 pages of commentary for the entire Gita and I value this as a priceless treasure to unfold the message of Lord Krishna in Bhagavad Gita. ========== Yogakshemam (Security and welfare) (Swami Dayananda's Commentary in the Gita Homestudy Book) ========================================================= Ananyaash chintayanto maam ye janaah paryupaasate; Teshaam nityaabhiyuktaanaam yogakshemam vahaamyaham. (22) ye janah - those people who; ananyah - see themselves as non-separate from me, chintayantah mam - inquiring into me or recognizing me; mam paryvpasate - seek me, gain me; vahami aham - I take care of yoga-ksemam - what they want to acquire and protect; tesam nitya-abhityuktanam - for those who are always one with me. (If the verse is about jnanam then it could be interpreted to mean ) Those people who see themselves as non-separate from me, recognizing me, gain me. For those who are always one with me, I take care of what they want to acquire and protect. (If the verse is about mumuksam then it could be interpreted to mean) Those people who are non-separate from me, inquiring into me, seek me. For those who are always one with me, I take care of what they want to acquire and protect. This is a very famous and often quoted verse. It has an important location. It is in about the middle of the ninth chapter, which is in the middle of the eighteen chapters. It can be taken in two ways; as a description of a jAinl, a wise man. or as a mvmuksu's approach to the object of his seeking. Sankara takes it as a description of a jnaril, based on ye ananyah which he says is meant to distinguish these people from the ones Bhagavan has mentioned before. Ananyah are those who are not separate from me, the Lord. Does that mean that in the Lord's vision, there are two sets of people, those non-separate from himself, and those who are separate? That is not consistent with all that he has already said. Therefore ananyah means those who do not look upon "me" as other than themselves, as another being. They do not see "me" in one form or another as someone separate from themselves. These are ananyah and they are never separate from "me." How is this possible? These are all individuals, how can they be non- separate from Isvara, the Lord who is everything? Sankara says, because the Lord is the atma of all of them. When this is so, naturally those who recognize atma as Paramesvara are non-separate from him. The atma of Isvara is the jiva's atma, that one atma which is non-dual caitanyam, which is satyam, jnanam and anantam. Those who recognize themselves as this are called ananyah. It is because of this word ananyah that Sankara has said in his introduction these are people of clear vision, samyagdarsinah. All others are also non-separate but they do not recognize it. The only difference between one group and the other is recognition and non - recognition, knowledge and ignorance. And that is a vast difference. These people recognize even the ahankara as Paramesvara. There are some verses that express this: "Tatra yatra mano madlyam tatra tatra lava pada pankajam," wherever my mind is, there indeed are your lotus feet. It can be a prayer or a statement of fact. At another place it is said, "yatra yatra mano yati tatra tatra samadhayah", wherever the mind goes there indeed is samadhi, recognizing Isvara. The mind cannot go away from Paramesvara because the mind is itself Paramesvara. It is like someone who wants to get away from space. Where will' he go? There is no such place. This is the way in which these people recognize Isvara. Such people who recognize or inquire into me, mam cintayantah, gain or seek me, mam paryupasate. And for them, tesam, who are non- separate from me at any time, nitya-abhiyuktanam, I take care of yoga and ksema. This is one of the most popular statements in the GIta. Yogaksemam vahami aham. Ksemam is retaining or protecting what you have acquired, praptasya ratcsanam ksemam. In India there is a convention that you write ksemam at the top left hand corner of a letter to indicate there is no bad news. If it is a letter informimg someone of a death, ksemam will be absent. The person has gone. You cannot retain what you do not have so ksemam is om milted. And retention here is always of what is desirable and what you want. Retaining extra weight is not ksema! Yoga has many different meanings, for example, the title of a chapter. But when yoga and ksema appear together in a compound, the meaning for yoga is acquiring what you do-not have, apraptasya prapanam. And it must also be desirable to look at your life. All your concerns can come under one of these two. What is it that bothers you? Just think of any one thing. It will either be about something you want, yoga or something you are afraid to lose, ksema. I have no peace - yoga. I do not have enough money - yoga. I am losing my hair, my health - ksema. Yoga and ksema indicate a lot about the life of a jiva. If yoga-ksema is taken care of, everything is taken care of. The Lord says I take care of these for those who are always non- separate from me, nityaabniyuktanam. Here Sankara puts a note. Even other bhaktas, get their yoga-ksema taken care of by Bhagavan. He is the object of their prayers and as the karma-phala-dhata, he gives the results. So how can you say he takes care of the yoga-ksema of these nitya-abhiyuktah? What does it mean? He says it is true that Bhagavan takes care of ail others too but there is a difference with these people. The object of a devotee's prayer is what is desired by him. Look at the previous verse. These people pray and offer rituals to Isvara for a particular result - heaven. Heaven is the desired object, not the Lord. He is just the means to achieve their end. They will use anyone to get what they want but they know the local forces are not adequate. And they know that the Lord has all knowledge, all power and compassion, sarvastatvam sarva saktimatvam sarvadayalutvam. So they wish to use Him to get what they want. But then look at this. Cintayantah mam inquiring into me, mam paryupasate, they also seek Isvara. Then what do they get? Let us consider a mumuksu here, one who wants liberation. He also prays to the Lord. But what is the object of his prayer? It is Isvara. He wants nothing else, only to know Isvara. "My object is only to find you," he says, "so I pray to know where you are, what you are." After finding him what does he want? "Nothing, only to know that I am one with you." Such mumuksus do not look upon Isvara as really separate from themselves. There is a sense of separation for the time being because of ignorance. To resolve that, they are always inquiring into the svarupa of Isvara, mam cintayantah. If he is non-dual he is one with me. How can;that be? I am such a separate, insignificant being. How can I be Paramesvarat the Lord? These doubts are there because there is no knowledge, only faith, Sraddha. So they seek, ye paryupasate. How? By sravaria manana, nididhyasana, with devotion and commitment. The object of their prayer, their pursuit is only Paramesvara, They do not use Paramesvara. They are only seeking to know him. This is the difference, Sankara says. These are the ananya-darsinah, the wise people who do not care whether they are alive or dead. They are not anxious about looking after themselves nor are they afraid of what will happen to them. They are with Bhagavan, they are non-separate from him and have no concern for their own yoga-ksema. Whatever happens happens. Everything, even the desires, are all in the hands of prarabdha-karmat which is non-separate from Paramesvara. Since they recognize the law of karma as non-separate from Paramesvara, whatever takes place is Paramesvara for them. They are not using him to protect their yoga-ksema but yoga-ksema is taken care of by Bhagavan himself in the form of the laws of karma. So they have no concern about their yoga-ksema. An ordinary bhakta is deeply concerned about his yoga-ksema. He has concern because he has doership and centered on this is his entire effort for yoga-ksema. Being what he-is, a bhakta knows that in spite of all his efforts he will not be able to get what he wants and retain what he wants to retain. So he looks for help. As a bhakta he performs rituals in order to get and retain what he wants. A Jnani on the other hand, is not a karta. Who is the karta then? If at all there is a karta it is only Bhagavan.. He is the creator, srsti-karta, and sustainer, sthiti-karta and destroyer, samhara- karta. That is what Sankara says here. It is an excellent note. Moksa is only through knowledge of atma being Brahman which is the cause of the world. To know this you must inquire and to inquire you must have an appropriate means of knowledge, pramanam. How am I going to inquire into Isvara? Through the pramana which happens to be in the form of words. Therefore, inquiring into Bhagavan is inquiring into words, the words of sastra, Thus they seek me, they worship me by inquiring into who I am. That is the best form of worship. The jijnasu, whom we are talking about here, are bhaktas. Bhagavan gives them an assurance. For those who are so totally committed to me, I will take care of all that is necessary, yoga and ksema. What a jijnasu wants to gain and protect is knowledge. Bhagavan will take care of his concern because he is his bhakta. The idea is that tiraddha will take care of everything. When sannyasis give up everything, they do not count upon being taken care of by society, or by anybody for that matter. Society does take care of them in some ways but they do not count on that. They do not think there is a necessity for anybody to take care of them. Things will be taken care of. This is the attitude of the sannyai. Here, however, Bhagavan assures them. "I will take care of your yoga-ksema." If the yoga and ksema of the wise are taken care of by Bhagavan, the seekers' bhakti will free them from yoga-ksema. Their own commitment to Isvara will free them from the concerns of yoga-ksema. Because of their commitment to Isvara, naturally they are not concerned about their yoga-ksema. Isvara will take care of it. This is expressed as aham yogaksemam vahami. Generally for our yoga-ksema we use a number of forces, our own powers, our knowledge, our skills, ail the resources at our command, and all external forces too. Often that is not enough so we invoke the Lord as well. There is nothing wrong in that. It shows that a person is mature enough to recognize Isvara - but only-as a means to accomplish his own yoga and ksema. He does not seek to understand the Lord. This is the ordinary bhakta. Whereas here he says, these people do not seek yoga-ksema, they seek "me." Who are they ? Ananyah. Here Krsna presents himself as Isvara or Vyasa presents him as Isvara. Either way it is the same. As Isvara he says these are the people who are not separate from me. They recognize me as the very svarupa, the very alma of themselves. They realize there is no separate Isvara because lsvara, by nature cannot be separate from anything, including me. Even looking at it from the physical viewpoint, fgvara's body will include my body. If the whole creation is taken as Isvara's body, my body is included. My antahkaranah is also included. So even from the standpoint of the body, there is nothing other than Isvara. From the standpoint of aham, which is the main thing here, there is no separation whatsoever. The jiva is non-separate from Isvara. Isvara's atma is jiva, jiva's atma is Isvara. From the standpoint of maya-upadhi, there is Isvara but the atma of Isvara is nothing but the truth of the jiva, the caitanya atma. And the jiva's atma is nothing but Isvara. There is only one aham, this limitless "I" which is the truth of both the Lord and the individual. Those who recognize this identity are sailed to ananyah. How did they become become ananyah? Mam cintayantah, thinking of me, not their own yoga and ksema. Inquiring into Parames*vara is the aim of their life. They are jljnasus. They are committed to the pursuit of the knowledge of Isvara. They are not making efforts for their yoga-ksema, but for the discovery of Isvara. Sankara resents the ananyah as jnanls, sannyaslnah . Their sannyasa is not a life style but a renunciation haracterized by the knowledge aham akarta, I am a non-doer. I have never done anything, at any time, and I am not doing anything even now while talking. While performing all these varieties of actions, pasyan srnvan sprsan jighran asnan gacchan svapan svasan pralapan visrjan grhnan unmisan nimisan, I do not perform any action. Patiyan, seeing, he says aham na pasyami, I do not see. Srnvan hearing, he says aham na srnomi, I do not hear. What he means is this self, the meaning of I, being what it is, performs no action. But in its presence all activities take place. I am in the form of awareness in the presence of which the mind is mind, the senses are senses. With the mind desiring, with the intellect deciding, one performs action with the organs of action, manasa sankalpya buddhya niscitya karma karoti karmendriyaih. That is jnanam. Ye janah paryupasate, those people seek or recognize me in all the states of experience. That is why he uses the prefix pan yoe upasate. It means at all times, in all states of experience. Who are they? By seeking Paramesvara seriously through Sravanam mananam nididhyasanam, enjoying the amanitvadi qualities, they have become...Nitya-abhiyuktSnam, those whose minds are always awake to me, who have recognized that they are never separate from atma. Their minds do not come in between themselves and the vision. Abhiyuktah means endowed with amanitvadi virtues. These people have gone through the whole process and therefore have no inhibiting factor to their knowledge. They are nitya-abhiyuktah. advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...> wrote: > > Ananyash Chinthayanto maam, ye jannah pariupaasathe > Thesham nithyabhi yukthanam yoga kshemam vahamyaham > (Gita Chapter 9, Verse 22) > > Whoever among devotees dedicates all acts to Me with no other > thought, whoever meditates on Me, serves Me, Worships Me, Remembers > Me, know that I am always with them, ever providing for them. I > pledge to bear the burden of the Yogakshemam (welfare and security)! 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Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...> wrote: > Fortunately, Swami Dayananda > Saraswati of Arsha Vidya Gurukulam has provided the exact commentary > that I was looking for. His message is quite profound and hopefully > will help us all to understand the role of "Isvara" in advaita. > Namaste. Thanks, Ram Chandran, for bringing to our notice this write-up from Swami Dayananda Saraswati. I have separately book-marked it for careful nidhidhyasana on it. I would recommend the list members to take special note of this article. In fact we should find some software strategy for the list archives itself to bookmark articles such as this. PraNAms to all advaitins on this list and to Swami Dayananda Saraswati. profvk p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2005 Report Share Posted May 12, 2005 Shri Marc, In this respect, poetry of a great saint of 13th centrury from Maharashtra, named Sant Dhnyaneshwar is worth paying attention. He wrote a commentry on Bhagwat Geeta known as Dhnyaneshwari, which is very popular in Maharashtra. He wrote, "It is possible for the intelligent men to understand the meaning of every word of Shastra and Vedanta, and explain it to the world, they can count all the molecules and atoms in the universe and every thing is available to them. But, I , Atma shall not be available to them unless their mind is pure and stable. (prerequisite is "sadhana"). " Thank you, this is just for your information. With regards Yours Anil Mail Stay connected, organized, and protected. Take the tour Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 18, 2005 Report Share Posted May 18, 2005 Namaste Anil, thank you for your message and information... have been to the sea for few days....sorry for the late answer you wrote: "...........on Bhagwat Geeta known as Dhnyaneshwari, which is very popular in > Maharashtra. He wrote, > > "It is possible for the intelligent men to understand the meaning of every > word of Shastra and Vedanta, and explain it to the world, they can count > all the molecules and atoms in the universe and every thing is available to > them. But, I , Atma shall not be available to them unless their mind is pure > and stable. (prerequisite is "sadhana"). " sounds beautiful words ...thank you doesn't matter how much the intellect is developped....as long there is duality in mind.....means, the Self unknown......the mind stay being restless.....and far from "pure"... Regards peace and love Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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