Why Existence /Consciousness?

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Sowmy" <nsowmy> wrote:

> List Moderator's Note: We wholeheartedly welcome you to the list.

We look forward to your active participation with thoughtful

questions and insights. We also recommend that you to state a brief

introduction about yourself which will be quite useful for the fellow

members to know your background and help them to answer your

questions more thoughtfully.

>

>

 

Thanks a lot for your nice words.

 

I was born and brought up in Chennai, India. Im right now working as

a Software Engineer in an MNC in Bangalore. Science (esp. Physics)

has been a fascination for me, right from childhood. Im very much

interested in the principle/philosophy of non-duality, which prompted

me to join this group.

 

Thats about my physical existence, in a nutshell. :-)

 

Hoping to be an active contributor in this forum.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sowmy.

 

We have to look at your questions from a different angle outlined in

the following steps:

 

Sep 1

 

Do you accept that you have asked these questions? If your answer is

yes (it can never be otherwise), then you have accepted your

existence.

 

Step 2

 

Do you know who or what you are? You can't answer that because you

will have to go into an infinite regress as all your conclusions

about you are bound to be objectifications by `something' at the end,

which you really are. Even the seeming infinite regress is an

objectification to that `something'.

 

Step 3

 

There is no question of knowing that `something' because if you know

it that again becomes an objectification, something other than you,

the Knower.

 

Step 3

 

Yet, you cannot escape the fact that you exist behind all this. That

is the Consciousness of Advaita (CHIT). Since that `something' IS,

it is called by the name Existence (SAT).

 

Step 4

 

If you thus accept Consciousness as the `something' that exists at

the end as the Knower in you, then you cannot escape the conclusion

that Consciousness Is, everything else is. Why? Because if you are

not there, the world is not. Hard to accept? Ok. Visualize a

situation where life has become extinct in this universe. What will

remain? A barren pack of mass and energy? If you say yes, then the

inevitable question pops up. Who knows that barren pack? That means

the Universe cannot have an existence without a perceiving

intelligence (Consciousness) like gold ornaments cannot exist without

gold. Gold is, ornaments are.

 

Step 5

 

Advaita tells you that you are THAT Consciousness because of which

all THIS is. Then, are there a THAT and THIS as separate entities?

 

Step 6

 

It looks that way because we perceive a universe populated by

different entities including our body, mind, intellect, time, space

etc. all separate from the `something' that knows them. But from

Step 4, we find that without THAT, THIS can't be. That would mean

THIS is THAT. There are no two things. If there aren't two, what

remains, irrespective of whether you call it THAT or THIS, ought to

be ONE WITHOUT A SECOND. Since it is ONE WITHOUT A SECOND, it has

nothing external to it. Since it has no outside, it has no inside

too. It is limitlessness, spacelessness and therefore timelessness.

That is FULLNESS (Ananda) – where there are no more any wants or

deficiencies.

 

Step 7

 

That means there is an error in your current perception – an

ignorance due to which you fail to perceive the actual oneness in

diversity. Call it mAyA. Why there is mAyA is your question.

Well, it is there? Why worry about its genesis? Just accept it.

When you thus see through the error and realize your ONE-WITHOUT-A-

SECONDNESS, that is knowledge (jnAna). In the fire of that

knowledge, your ignorance vanishes without a trace. You then know

your true nature. When you have truly realized thus, there is nothing

you have to do. You don't then ask any more questions. You are

FULLNESS (ANANDA) that is EXISTENCE (SAT) as well as CONSCIOUSNESS

(CHIT). These are all synonyms for the same thing.

 

Hope this helps.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

________________________

 

advaitin, "Sowmy" <nsowmy> wrote:

>

> 1) Why Existence/Consciousness in the first place? Whatz the point?

>

> 2) If at all "Existence", why manifestation?

>

> 3) If at all "Manifestation", why manifest as mind?

>

> 4) If at all "Mind", why ignorance/illusion/maya ?

>

> 5) If at all "Maya", why the consciousness has to identify itself

> with Maya, forgetting its true identity?

> Have a nice day!

[Guest guest]

Sri Nair, Thanks a lot for taking the pain to answer my questions.

 

Basically i had asked these questions because i read Sri profvk

mention in the "Logic of Spirituality" discussion thread

that "Science tries to explain 'how' things happen the way they

happen, but spirituality explains 'why' things happen". This is "why"

i raised all those "why" questions ), hoping to get some pointers

from vedopanishands. ( if at all these questions were dealt with in

them ). I strongly feel that Consciousness is there for some valid

reason. Not to simply "be" there.

 

And i have never questioned the existence/consciousness. We all know

its presence (i.e. our presence). But i was just kinda wondering why

it is there? Why something has to exist? Why cant there be no one to

perceive and nothing to be perceived...total nothingness...then there

will no question of my mind/maya/illusion/sorrow/happiness and what

not...

 

But like you said, we have to accept the fact that Existence has come

to exist ) and there is no point worrying abt its genesis....

 

Thanks again for your insights.

 

Have a nice day !

[Guest guest]

Sowmyji!

 

Thank you very much for explaining the genesis of your questions.

Now, I understand your questions well. My apologies for missing the

point.

 

These are the questions I like most. You are really into enquiry

and I can't therefore leave you yet.

 

My comments are in brackets below pertinent quotes from your

post:

_____________

>This is "why" i raised all those "why" questions ), hoping to

get some pointers from vedopanishands. ( if at all these questions

>were dealt with in them ).

_______________________

 

[i am sure you can find scriptural statements answering your

questions. Perhaps, a stotriya among us can help you here. But, it

is a matter of who explains and how they are interpreted. My

understanding is purely based on the interpretations I have read and

the material I have listened to, which I hope can clarify the issues

raised, as you will see below. Atleast, it has satisfied my

enquiring mind.]

_

 

I strongly feel that Consciousness is there for some valid

> reason. Not to simply "be" there.

>

> And i have never questioned the existence/consciousness. We all

know

> its presence (i.e. our presence). But i was just kinda wondering

why

> it is there? Why something has to exist?

__

 

[i am afraid there is a very dangerous and fundamental mistake here.

Please don't say "Consciousness is there" because with that "there"

you have brought in a spatial connotation. "CONSCIOUSNESS IS" is

more truthful. I have to bring in an anecdote here:

 

Once my daughter, who was then in the Class IV or V, and I were

going to a shopping centre. I was driving and she was sitting

beside me. Suddenly, she asked me this fundamental

question: "Dada, when and where this Consciousness that you are

talking so much about these days originate?". Well, that is a

question most children in all religions ask their parents when they

enquire: "Who created God?". Invariably, the parents would silence

them with a "Shut up!". Thanks to vedanta, I didn't have to do that

although her question swept me off my feet for a moment.

 

"When" is temporal and "where" is spatial. Both time and space

(space-time continuum) is *in* awareness because we know them both

to exist. They are objectifications. How can then we frame questions

about Awareness (Consciousness) with purely transactional words

like 'when' and 'where'.

 

I believe she was satisfied. Or, at least, I was, as an advaitin

parent.

 

This applies to your questions beginning with a

harrowing 'why'. 'Why' is causal. Cause and effect belong to the

transactional within Awareness. Consciousness, therefore, has no

cause. IT IS. Don't call it 'causeless'. It is CAUSELESSNESS as

it is TIMELESSNESS and SPACELESSNESS. Nouns are better expressions

as adjectives tend to be dangerously attributive. In other words,

Consciousness is ATTRIBUTELESSNESS (not beyond attributes as we

normally say). All these nouns signify the same Truth and are

synonyms in the absolute sense.

 

So, it is not a question of not worrying about the genesis of

Consciousness. Logically, there is no genesis at

all! "CONSCIOUSNESS IS" is all what we can say within our power of

expression.]

 

______________

 

 

Why cant there be no one to

> perceive and nothing to be perceived...total nothingness...then

there

> will no question of my mind/maya/illusion/sorrow/happiness and

what

> not...

 

_____________

 

[Nothingness is purely transactional. It is the opposite of

somethingness. Consciousness is not nothingness. It is neither

somethingness. MAyA is not illusion. It is the very situation in

which we are right now plagued by separation and differneces. The

whole creation is mAyA. Through the logic of advaita you have to

conclude that there has never been any creation at all and

CONSCIOUSNESS IS.]

___________________

 

> But like you said, we have to accept the fact that Existence has

come

> to exist ) and there is no point worrying abt its genesis....

__________

 

[i said there is no point worrying about the genesis of mAya and not

Existence. Existence being the synonym for Consciousness, we have

already found that 'whys' don't apply to it. As for mAyA, if you

can realize that there has not been any creation at all, where is

genesis?]

 

[sowmyji, all these words from me are academic. One has to live

them to realize the Truth. How I go about doing it is narrated in

my post # 26701 of 16th May. No tall claims. I have improved with

this understanding although I still have several human failures.

But, life is much much better judging from my past. When I

explained my academic understanding to Sw. Dayanandaji quite some

time back and requested him to advise me on what I should do next,

he smiled and quipped: "Nair, don't do anything. Just

contemplate." You have an enquiring mind. God has blessed you to

contemplate. Thank him and see him in everything.]

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

Thanks Nair-ji for providing deep insights on this subject.

 

Best Regards,

sowmy

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Thanks for continuing your enquiry to resolve some fundamental

puzzles of Vedanta. Such puzzles can never be resolved by the

intellect using logical means. Faith is an integral part of any

enquiry and Vedantic understanding of spirituality requires this

important ingredient.

 

The way you have posed these questions and your subsequent replies

indicate that you have in depth knowledge of advaita. Also I believe

that you are 'questioning' the validity and logic of advaita

philosophy instead of making an enquiry. Honestly, this is a wrong

attitude for anyone who sincerely seeks the Truth. To resolve any

puzzles, we need to 'believe on certain starting point,' and then use

our intellect to verify and understand what we believe. The logic of

both spirituality and science is built with faith/assumptions and a

clear frame-work.

 

In your very first posting, I have noticed that you were more

interested in the sources for the Truth such as the Upanishads/Vedas

instead of Truth. The list members and moderators would be more than

happy to provide you as much details as they know either from books

or from their experience. However, we do have the right to know more

about you and your background. This will greatly help us understand

you better and help you more appropriately.

 

May I request you to provide a one or two paragraphs describing about

you. Thanks in advance for your cooperation and understanding.

 

Ram Chandran

 

 

advaitin, "Sowmy" <nsowmy> wrote:

> Dear Advaitins,

>

> This is another perpetual question that I have been having. Is

> Karma /Re-birth for real? I mean if there is only one Eternal

> Spirit/Soul/Consciousness, i.e. no individual souls, what then re-

> incarnates?

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...>

wrote:

> Namaste:

 

Namaste Ram-Ji.

 

You wrote:

> Faith is an integral part of any

> enquiry and Vedantic understanding of spirituality requires this

> important ingredient.

 

> To resolve any

> puzzles, we need to 'believe on certain starting point,' and then

use

> our intellect to verify and understand what we believe. The logic

of

> both spirituality and science is built with faith/assumptions and

a

> clear frame-work.

 

 

You are right. Without first having faith/belief or assumption about

something, we cannot go about understanding it. Thanks a lot for

pointing this out.

 

------------

 

You wrote:

> The way you have posed these questions and your subsequent replies

> indicate that you have in depth knowledge of advaita.

 

I dont think i can say that about myself. Whatever i think i know

about Advaita is only whatever i got exposed to. Im here in this

forum seeking more exposure.

 

------------

You wrote:

>However, we do have the right to know more about you and your

>background. This will greatly help us understand you better and

>help you more appropriately.

 

 

I understand your point.

 

I was born in a Orthodox Hindu Brahmin (Iyengar) family in Chennai.

Right from childhood i have been exposed to all sorts of concepts

about God, Existence etc. from various sources. My mother &

grandmother used to take me to Harikathas and that is where i picked

up most of these ideas. Because of this background i got a hang of

most Bhakthi/Vedanta concepts. But for some reason i did not go deep

into these and my knowledge was pretty supeficial. i.e. i did not

pursue this further after sometime and got pre-occupied with other

mundane things. (But of course, it was always there in the

background).I have read books on spirituality. (We have subscriptions

to many of the monthlies.)

But i have felt that some of the ideas that are presented about

God, Existence etc. are contradictory, which then set me on the path

of enquiry. I have searched extensively on the net about these

concepts and im trying to put all the pieces together. Of all, the

philosophy of non-duality struck me the most. I wanted to know more

about it and get my doubts cleared and hence i joined this group.

 

Hope this gives some idea about my background.

 

Thanks a lot Ram-Ji for taking the time to respond to my mail.

 

Have a nice day!

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Sowmy:

 

Most of us in the list have started our enquiry into Vedanta with a

background similar to yours. I could appreciate why find the concepts

confusing and also contradictory. In Vedic time period, the learning

method was more conducive and they used to take more than 14 years of

systematic learning from a Guru of their choice. In modern times, the

learning becomes more complicated because we don't focus on 'one'

but indulge in 'many.'

 

Since you are keen on learning indepth knowledge on advaita, I

suggest you read the following in addition to your participating in

the discussions through questions and comments.

 

The file folder with the site address below, contains lots of

materials related to advaita organized by folders.

 

advaitin

 

Specifically, you start reading the following materials available in

the site address provided below:

==========================================

A dialogue in Advaita for Beginners

PDF file available at the advaitin home site:

http://www.advaitin.com/LinksToListDiscussions.html

 

Vedanta for Beginners by Sri Krishna Iyer

PDF file is available at the advaitin Site:

http://www.advaitin.com/LinksToListDiscussions.html

 

What is Real and Unreal by Sri Chittaranjan Naik

PDF file is available at the advaitin Site:

http://www.advaitin.com/LinksToListDiscussions.html

 

Whence Adhyasa List Discussions

PDF file is available at the advaitin Site:

http://www.advaitin.com/LinksToListDiscussions.html

 

If you have access to either Ramakrishna Mission or Chinmaya

Mission, you visit and check for books on advaita or Vedanta.

 

Most importantly, Bhagavad Gita can provide you comprehensive

materials on topics related to the questions that you have raised.

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

advaitin, "Sowmy" <nsowmy> wrote:

> advaitin, "Ram Chandran" <RamChandran@a...>

[Guest guest]

Thanks a lot Ram-ji for taking the time to provide me with links to

Advaita reference material.

 

Best Regards,

sowmy