please clear doubts

[Guest guest]

hello everyone

 

My name is hari ,,, i have few questions raised by my

friend that im not able to get over without

answering. My friend is not theist ,, but im a

staunch believer of shiva and vishnu.

 

1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering

though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are

majority rich n healthy thou they dont even kno who

vishnu or shiva are???

 

2) We Indians thou most of them follow the traditions

and principles are suffering,,,, while ppl in US,UK n

other countries who dont even kno wat

""JADAGAM,PANCHAGAM,, AUSPISCIOUS

DAYS,,OFFERING,SLOGAS,VEDAS ,,BLESSING"" like rich n

happy thru out their life goin places ,resorts n

enjoin

 

1) how can u prove the existence of god,,,??

thou i watever i explain him,,, he says

tat its mear coincidence.

 

 

please answer my question

hari

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

On Friday, May 27, 2005, at 02:51 PM, hari h wrote:

> 1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering

> though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are

> majority rich n healthy thou they dont even kno who

> vishnu or shiva are???

 

a) Prosperity or otherwise of a country is more a result of economic

policies than spiritual faith. What you have referred above is at best

association, which is different from causality. if you further analyze

these groups, you might find that believers in vishnu or shiva have

less average height than those who do not believe. Would it imply that

faith in vishnu or shiva is the reason for less average height also?

Clearly, before establishing any causality, it has to be established

that the factors under consideration are actually relevant.

 

b) As a second step, let us assume that the condition referred above is

not merely due to association, but has a causal relationship. If you

look at the economic data of the world, you will find that barring a

dozen or so countries in Western Europe, US and a few in Asia, pretty

much all of the world is poor. However, the world is not only Western

Europe and US. It consists of 175 countries, majority of which is as

poor as India. None of them believe in vishnu or shiva. If spiritual

faith is the reason for economic condition of a country, why is the

majority of non-believers in vishnu or shiva poor? In fact why should

there be any poverty outside India?

 

Not to talk of causality, there is not even association in this case.

 

c) As a third step, let us ignore the above argument for a while and

assume association as well as causality as referred above. However, the

prosperity you are talking of is very recent and does not necessarily

give you enough data to base your argument. On the flip side of it,

till year 1800, for almost a millennium, India was the richest country

producing around one fourth of the entire GDP of the world, with pretty

much same set of spiritual beliefs. This is not to argue that spiritual

beliefs were the cause of India's erstwhile prosperity -- but exactly

the opposite. Causes of India's earlier prosperity and today's

poverty-- both have roots in other than spiritual beliefs. If you are

searching for the causes in a wrong place, you will very likely come up

with the wrong causes.

 

d) Even after accepting everything in the question as true, who can say

that India's condition would not have been worse but for the belief in

vishnu or shiva?

 

The argument given in the question above is OK in a casual

conversation, however analyzed logically, it does not hold any rigor.

> 2) how can u prove the existence of god,,,??

> thou i watever i explain him,,, he says

> tat its mear coincidence.

 

Again, the above question has two aspects. First of all, the inability

to prove existence of God, does not automatically proves the absence of

God. Proving the absence of God is as trick business as proving the

existence.

 

As regards the proof of existence, it depends on what means of

knowledge you accept as valid. A world view that accepts only

pratyaksha as the valid pramana is closest to an atheist's position.

However, few people will have the intellectual honesty to follow this

premise to its logical conclusion. If you accept inference also as a

valid means, position of a theist and an atheist is equally tenable or

untenable. If you add shabda as another valid means there is no scope

for any doubt.

 

However, instead of taking an intellectual approach, why not tackle the

problem at the existential level? If deep down in your heart, you are

satisfied that there is no deeper meaning in life than being born and

procreating, that's fine. You are already in a different dimension and

don't need any spiritual teaching, belief in God etc. But are you

honest about your belief in the meaninglessness of life? If yes, why

argue at all on a useless subject? Where does the psychological need

come from?

 

Regards,

[Guest guest]

hari h <chromozomee wrote: 1) how can u prove the existence of

god,,,??

thou i watever i explain him,,, he says

tat its mear coincidence.

 

 

 

Namaste Hari,

Can your friend prove the non-existence of God ?

Can your friend prove how life evolved into conscious beings on earth ?

Can your friend prove that Bhagvad Gita is a figment of imagination ?

Can your friend prove by experiment that a huge explosion of gases and other

matter will result in a universe that follows some order, rhythm and cycle ?

Can your friend prove that Vedas are imaginary ?

Can your friend prove that the myriad of characters and stories in Puranas,

Mahabharata and Ramayan are all imaginary ?

Can your friend prove that existence can emerge out of non-existence ?

 

regards,

Shailendra

 

 

 

 

!

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, hari h <chromozomee> wrote:

> hello everyone

>

> My name is hari ,,, i have few questions raised by my

> friend that im not able to get over without

> answering. My friend is not theist ,, but im a

> staunch believer of shiva and vishnu.

>

> 1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering

> though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are

> majority rich n healthy thou they dont even kno who

> vishnu or shiva are???

>

 

 

Namaste Hari-ji

 

It has been forecast by great historians like Toynbee that the

middle of the 21st century would see the world veer round to the

nobler ancient thought processes of the East, among which India has

been always counted as a major contributor.

 

Man's essential qualities are the most welcome qualities of

sympathy, compassion, kindliness and brotherhood. If we forget this

in our craze for modern science and technology it is only a crisis

of intellect. What is important for the 21st century citizen is to

come together and rediscover these ancient thoughts that have

remained with us for more than twenty centuries now. The period of

the first millenium B.C. is the most important period of history in

this connection. That was the time when the axis of world's thoughts

shifted from a study of nature to the study of man's life and his

inner aspirations. Then in India we had the Upanishadic seers,

Mahavira the Jina and Gautama the Buddha. ; in China we had Lao Tse

and Confucius; In Iran there was Zoroaster; in Israel there were the

great prophets; in Greece, Pythagoras, Socrates and Plato. That

surge of activity and investigation and the profundity of thought of

that period have never since been matched. They achieved so much

with so little help from any gadgetry. The philosophers of the first

millenium B.C. achieved what they did by sheer rational thinking

coupled with a certain uniue intuition of their own.

 

The test of significance of what they left for posterity is the fact

that they have survived twenty centuries of war and peace, strife

and hatred, and all the ups and downs of grfeat empires and

civilizations. It is extremely doubtful whether anything of what we

call 20th century science and technology will survive as valid

knowledge twenty centuries hence!

 

History should be studied not as history of different nations but

as history of man and of his wars against poverty, disease and

wickedness. Peace is not absence of war but it is a mutual

understanding of each other's aspirations and rights.

 

So who do you think is ultimately healthy, wealthy and wise?

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

Dear Hari,

> 1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering

> though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are

> majority rich n healthy thou they dont even kno who

> vishnu or shiva are???

 

People in US, UK also pray to the Lord, indulge in rituals prescribed by

their faith (Christian, Jew or otherwise) and seek divine help to further

their material enterprises. In this respect they do not differ from

worshippers of Shiva or Vishnu. The difference lies in the work culture

which they have fostered, and virtues like honesty, sincerity, spirit of

adventure, spirit of inquiry and enterprise which they have cultivated-

which are conducive to material prosperity. Indians were propserous when

they possessed these virtues, and are poor because they lost them somewhere

along the line. Whether it is Shiva, Vishnu, Jesus or Jehova; gods don't

help those who don't help themselves.

> 2) We Indians thou most of them follow the traditions

> and principles are suffering,,,, while ppl in US,UK n

> other countries who dont even kno wat

> ""JADAGAM,PANCHAGAM,, AUSPISCIOUS

> DAYS,,OFFERING,SLOGAS,VEDAS ,,BLESSING"" like rich n

> happy thru out their life goin places ,resorts n

 

Traditions and principles are of two kinds.

a) Temporal practices and traditions like Karma Kanda portion of Vedas,

Smrutis of Manu and others. As Science keeps on updating itself these should

also be updated to suit changing times. If they are followed blindly they

degenerate into dogmas and superstitions and lead to stagnation and

downfall of the society. Western sciences like Medicine and Astronomy were

also full of many wrong ideas during the middle ages and would have remain

so if they had stuck to their dogmas.

 

b) Eternal principles like those enunciated in the Upanishads (Jnana Kanda

portion of Vedas) which stand true for ever in all conditions and times.

 

IMHO Indians have neglected to update the Karma Kanda portion which dealt

with necessities of material life, satisfying themselves with mere

mechanical recital, which is responsible their material backwardness. They

however did not neglect the Jnana Kanda portion, which has lead to the

blossoming of a most wonderful system of philosophy.

> 1) how can u prove the existence of god,,,??

> thou i watever i explain him,,, he says

> tat its mear coincidence.

 

There is no need to prove existence of God to anyone. Everyone has to mature

spiritually on his own.

 

Pranams to all advaitins

 

Ravi Shivde

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hello sir,

 

thanks a lot in spendin ur valuable time in answering

my questions,, really matured answers of yours seems

very convincing ,,the fact that im hazy about is , i

believe only in the presence of SHIVA , VISHNU ,

BRAHMA n not any other religion... other than that

answers would have cleared the doubts of lots of

ppl,,, the essence taken the upanishads were nicely

explained ,, again thanks a lot

 

 

hari

 

 

--- Ravi Shivde <shivde wrote:

> Dear Hari,

>

> > 1) Y do u ppl here in India are poor n suffering

> > though they pray god,,, but the ppl in US,UK are

[Guest guest]

List Moderators Note Once Again: Please do not include the previous messages as

a tail of your message while sending your replies. Both the new members and

other members do seem to continue to repeat doing this. The list appreciates

your cooperation in keeping the message crisp and clear by removing all

unnecessary parts of previous messages. (As it is done in this message!)

 

 

hello sirs,

 

thanks for all your answers,,, thanks a lots for

patiently the the questions and answering in the

most elegant with quoting excellent events from

history and examples...

 

thanks

hari

 

 

 

--- "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote:

> advaitin, hari h

> <chromozomee> wrote: