Gita in Daily Life: Chapter 7

[Guest guest]

Namaste

 

Before we begin discussing the implications of Chapter 7

for our daily life, it is necessary to have an overall idea

of what is in Chapter 7. Already we have Swami Dayananda's

commentary on Chapter 7 presented by Ram Chandran-ji in

2001. The relevant references are given below. After

members acquaint themselves (if necessary) of these, we

shall get to the subject of Gita in Daily Life: Ch.7.

 

1. http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m9796.html

for Ram Chandran's Review.

 

For Swami Dayanda's Commentary, see

 

2. http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10134.html

and

3. http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10135.html

on Ch.7 in general

 

4 to 8.

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10810.html

and four succeeding posts

for verses 20 to 23, 24 to 26, 27 to 28, 29 to 30 and for

conclusion

 

9. http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10819.html

for Some observations by Ram Chandran-ji on Verses 21 to 24

 

10. http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10866.html

for "God and the Universe" by Swami Krishnananda on Ch.7

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaste Prof Krishnamurthy-ji, I have probably asked

this question before and perhaps I have a half-baked

answer in mind but since chapter 7 is being discussed,

I will ask it again. I am specially interested in 7:14

where Bhagwan says that his Maya is very difficult to

transcend. On one hand we talk about non-duality and

the whole message of Gita is about non-doership and

non-enjoyership and witness attitude to the happenings

of the world and on the other hand, Bhagwan himself

says he has a lower nature which is 8-fold(5 primeval

elements, mind, ego and intellect) and it is very

difficult to cross it. By saying that he has a lower

nature and this gunas based Maya is extremely

difficult, he is almost admitting that he is also

responsible for anything that arises from this so

called lower nature. It sounds like Bhagwan is saying

he is playing a game - humans are born deluded by the

3 gunas and made up of those 8 things, spend

innumerable lives trying to attain the higher nature

or sat-chit-ananda. He is on both sides, he is playing

on the phenomenal plane by providing consciousness and

he is also the ultimate goal of everybody in the

world.

The explanation that I have heard/read is that

Prakriti is brought into picture to explain creation

because almost every seeker would like to know the why

and the how of this visible universe. Maya is not

boolean and Bhagwan is addressing something which is

not boolean. For those on the "higher rung", he

already spoke 2:16 and the very profound message of

5:14. He is trying to address those on the lower rung

here ?? So when he talks about "my Maya" in 7:14, does

he mean

- Maya is a special/mysterious power of Brahman

or

- Maya is a side affect of Brahman's presence

or

- there is no such thing as Maya but it is simply a

misperception or misconception of the absolute reality

 

thanks and regards,

Shailendra

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri Shailendra Bhatnagar prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

You can be rest assured that Sri Prof. VK prabhuji will come up with a more

authoritative answers to your questions. In the meantime, kindly allow me

to share my thoughts.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

I am specially interested in 7:14

where Bhagwan says that his Maya is very difficult to

transcend.

 

bhaskar :

 

but subsequently, does he not assure us that those who constantly adore him

can overcome mAya?? (mAmEva yE prapadyantE! mAyAmEtAM taraNtitE)

 

SB prabhuji:

 

On one hand we talk about non-duality and

the whole message of Gita is about non-doership and

non-enjoyership and witness attitude to the happenings

of the world

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes prabhuji, that is the ultimate siddhAnta of shruti & smruti texts..to

teach this parama siddhAnta scriptures adopt somany ways.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

and on the other hand, Bhagwan himself

says he has a lower nature which is 8-fold(5 primeval

elements, mind, ego and intellect) and it is very

difficult to cross it. By saying that he has a lower

nature and this gunas based Maya is extremely

difficult, he is almost admitting that he is also

responsible for anything that arises from this so

called lower nature.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes there is no *other cause* than parabrahman...I think this particular

observation aimed towards sAnkhya philosophy since they believe in bhEdha

in prakruti-purusha..Refuting this, krishna saying he is the material as

well as efficient cause & there is nothing apart from him!!

 

SB prabhuji:

 

It sounds like Bhagwan is saying he is playing a game - humans are born

deluded by the

3 gunas and made up of those 8 things, spend innumerable lives trying to

attain the higher nature or sat-chit-ananda. He is on both sides, he is

playing on the phenomenal plane by providing consciousness and he is also

the ultimate goal of everybody in the

world.

 

bhaskar :

 

I dont think bhagavan making us puppets here!! he has clarified *secrets*

of this game by saying *naktrutvaM, nakarmAni lOkasya srujaji*, prakrutEH

kriyamANAni! guNai karmAni sarvashaH & *guNA guNEShu vartante* etc. etc.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

So when he talks about "my Maya" in 7:14, does

he mean

 

- Maya is a special/mysterious power of Brahman

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes for those who believe in creation-creator distinction &

jIva-prakruti-Ishwara bhEdha. shankara in the IInd sutra janmAdasya yatha

says "the origination of the universe with multi dimensional

characteristics cannot be effected by any other means except Ishwara who is

possessing these qualities. No need to mention here for describing creation

etc. the secondless brahman has been equated here with Ishwara who is

sarvajna & sarvashakta.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

or

- Maya is a side affect of Brahman's presence

 

bhaskar :

 

There is no possibility of *side effects* since brahman is all pervading &

all encompassing & more importantly there is nothing apart from brahman.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

or

- there is no such thing as Maya but it is simply a

misperception or misconception of the absolute reality

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes & yes..... this is what the ultimatum issued by shankara while

explaning the true nature of mAya. It is our anAdi avidya causing us to

see the non existent snake in the rope. My paramaguruji Sri

SatchidAnandEndra Saraswati explains this *mAya* beautifully in his master

piece *mAndukya rahasya vivrutti* sEyaM mAyA adhyAtmikadruShtyA agrahaNaM

iti, bAhya druShtyA cha mAyAbIjaM iti cha abhilapyatE...rough meaning..

that which is called avidyA/agrahaNa through subjective defect the same

has been addressed as mAyAbIjaM etc. as objective false appearance. As you

rightly said it is only misperception / mis-understanding of the absolute

nondual reality.

 

thanks and regards,

Shailendra

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

Dear all

 

This (seeming) distinction between the "unmanifest One" and "manifest Many"

has confounded Saadhaks over centuries and its no different even today.

 

I would just quote Sri Ramana, who, like everything else he did, has

explained this in such simple terms. It would take just a bit of dwelling on

this and this confusion in our would be over for ever.

 

Sri Ramana said, "Shankaracharya has been criticised for his philosophy of

Maya (illusion) without understanding his meaning. He made three statements:

that Brahman is real, that the universe is unreal and that Brahman is the

universe. He did not stop with the second. The third statement explains the

first two; it signifies that when the universe is perceived apart from

Brahman that perception is false and illusory. What it amounts to is that

the phenomena are real when experienced as the Self (Brahman) and illusory

when seen apart from the Self"

 

When I read this my confusion over this issue was over once and for all.

Hope it works similarly for you.

 

 

 

 

----

 

bhaskar.yr

06/17/05 11:40:26

advaitin

Re: Gita in Daily Life: Chapter 7

 

praNAms Sri Shailendra Bhatnagar prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

You can be rest assured that Sri Prof. VK prabhuji will come up with a more

authoritative answers to your questions. In the meantime, kindly allow me

to share my thoughts.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

I am specially interested in 7:14

where Bhagwan says that his Maya is very difficult to

transcend.

 

bhaskar :

 

but subsequently, does he not assure us that those who constantly adore him

can overcome mAya?? (mAmEva yE prapadyantE! mAyAmEtAM taraNtitE)

 

SB prabhuji:

 

On one hand we talk about non-duality and

the whole message of Gita is about non-doership and

non-enjoyership and witness attitude to the happenings

of the world

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes prabhuji, that is the ultimate siddhAnta of shruti & smruti texts..to

teach this parama siddhAnta scriptures adopt somany ways.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

and on the other hand, Bhagwan himself

says he has a lower nature which is 8-fold(5 primeval

elements, mind, ego and intellect) and it is very

difficult to cross it. By saying that he has a lower

nature and this gunas based Maya is extremely

difficult, he is almost admitting that he is also

responsible for anything that arises from this so

called lower nature.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes there is no *other cause* than parabrahman...I think this particular

observation aimed towards sAnkhya philosophy since they believe in bhEdha

in prakruti-purusha..Refuting this, krishna saying he is the material as

well as efficient cause & there is nothing apart from him!!

 

SB prabhuji:

 

It sounds like Bhagwan is saying he is playing a game - humans are born

deluded by the

3 gunas and made up of those 8 things, spend innumerable lives trying to

attain the higher nature or sat-chit-ananda. He is on both sides, he is

playing on the phenomenal plane by providing consciousness and he is also

the ultimate goal of everybody in the

world.

 

bhaskar :

 

I dont think bhagavan making us puppets here!! he has clarified *secrets*

of this game by saying *naktrutvaM, nakarmAni lOkasya srujaji*, prakrutEH

kriyamANAni! guNai karmAni sarvashaH & *guNA guNEShu vartante* etc. etc.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

So when he talks about "my Maya" in 7:14, does

he mean

 

- Maya is a special/mysterious power of Brahman

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes for those who believe in creation-creator distinction &

jIva-prakruti-Ishwara bhEdha. shankara in the IInd sutra janmAdasya yatha

says "the origination of the universe with multi dimensional

characteristics cannot be effected by any other means except Ishwara who is

possessing these qualities. No need to mention here for describing creation

etc. the secondless brahman has been equated here with Ishwara who is

sarvajna & sarvashakta.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

or

- Maya is a side affect of Brahman's presence

 

bhaskar :

 

There is no possibility of *side effects* since brahman is all pervading &

all encompassing & more importantly there is nothing apart from brahman.

 

SB prabhuji:

 

or

- there is no such thing as Maya but it is simply a

misperception or misconception of the absolute reality

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes & yes..... this is what the ultimatum issued by shankara while

explaning the true nature of mAya. It is our anAdi avidya causing us to

see the non existent snake in the rope. My paramaguruji Sri

SatchidAnandEndra Saraswati explains this *mAya* beautifully in his master

piece *mAndukya rahasya vivrutti* sEyaM mAyA adhyAtmikadruShtyA agrahaNaM

iti, bAhya druShtyA cha mAyAbIjaM iti cha abhilapyatE...rough meaning..

that which is called avidyA/agrahaNa through subjective defect the same

has been addressed as mAyAbIjaM etc. as objective false appearance. As you

rightly said it is only misperception / mis-understanding of the absolute

nondual reality.

 

thanks and regards,

Shailendra

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

 

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of

Atman and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

So when he talks about "my Maya" in 7:14, does

> he mean

> - Maya is a special/mysterious power of Brahman

> or

> - Maya is a side affect of Brahman's presence

> or

> - there is no such thing as Maya but it is simply a

> misperception or misconception of the absolute reality

>

> dear friend,

 

i am quoting from the book written by Late Shri Rajagopalachari on

Bhagavad gita which is easy to understand by all. he says:

 

the hindu interpretation of the riddle of the Universe the great "open

secret" which has baffled men ever since he began to think deeply, and

which must ever remain an insoluble paradox. this involves a study of

the 7th, 9th and 15th chapters of Gita.

All physical elements of nature, including the material bodies

of animate beings and their sensory and mental functions, may be

grouped together forming the ever-changing physical aspect of the

universe. This is called Prakriti. Behind all again is the Supreme

Being whose power it is that holds together all the changes visible in

one organic existence. He dwells with in and supports and moves

everything, but exists apart from all.

 

The universe moves according to what are known as the laws of nature.

This code of nature is but the manifestation of the Supreme Will. God

himself is not seen as such and as a whole. What we see of him we are

content to call by the name of physical and moral laws, and life

proceeds as if wholly independent of God.

He says in Gita:

 

"Earth, water, fire, air, ether, thought, reasoning and consciousness

of individuality- these are eightfold divisions of my nature".

 

"This physical nature that I have described is My inferior

manifestation. My other and higher nature is the life-principle by

which the universe is upheld".

 

"Understand that these two constitute the womb of all beings. I am the

origin of the whole universe and into which it dissolves".

 

"There is naught whatsoever beyond Me. All this universe hangs together

on Me, as pearls on a string".

 

The dependence of all things and beings in Nature on the Supreme Spirit

is in other slokas.

 

The Lord says in slokas vii 8 to 14 and from 25 to 27.

 

He says, I am the taste in water, I am the radiance in the sun and the

moon, I am the sacred OM in all the Vedas; I am sound in space; I am

virility in men.

 

I am the sweet fragrance of the earth and the heat in the fire: the

life in all beings, the austerity in ascetics.

 

Know me as the seed primeval of all beings. I am the buddhi of the

wise, the splendour of the illustrious.

 

I am the strength of the strong, when it is untainted by desire and

passion. I am love that moves all beings, when it is not against Dharma.

 

This means that if an individual marries a girl and loves then it is

acceptable. But if any one thinks of having an affair with other girl

who is not his wife then god does not accept that love, as it is

Adharma. Also after getting married he is to support that girl till her

death, if he leaves her and goes behind other girl then it is also

Adharma.

 

He says that the divine Maya, operated by Me and founded on the play of

qualities, is hard to overcome; but they who seek refuge in Me cross

over this illusion.

 

The Tamil poet Thiruvalluvar says; " Piravi perunkadal needuvar,

neendar iraivan adi seradhar". Means those who falls at His feet will

be able to cross the sea of birth and death, those who fail to cross

are the one who does not reach his feet.

 

Not withstanding the fact that God supports and governs all, we are

ignorant of it, as the process of His governance is inclusive of

ourselves and all our perceptions, thoughts, reasonings and emotions.

The laws of nature are the will of God. His will is manifested in the

shape of what we see directly or by investigation but which we choose

to call by the name of Truth or Law of nature. God is the Law, and the

Law is He. He rules through the Law, and it seems as if the Law rules

and not He. The two are not different, nor can there be a variation

between them.

 

The will of God acts as the continuous natural creative force of the

world, Yoga-Maya, as it is termed in chapter 7-25, and the

untranscendable rule of Law, described as Yogam Aisvaram in chapter 9-

5. It is God that works throughout all the seeming phases and

complexities of life.

 

He says: "All this world is pervaded by Me in the form Unmanifest; all

beings abide in Me, but I stand apart from them."

 

" I am the Father of this world, Mother, the Supporter, the Grandsire,

the Holy One to be known, the Ohm, and also the Rik, Saman, and Yajus."

 

"I send heat; I hold back and pour down the rain; I am immortality and

I am also death; I am being, and I am also non-being."

 

I pervade this entire world in form unmanifest; all beings abide in Me,

but I stand apart from them!

 

And yet beings are not rooted in Me. Behold the scheme of My

sovereignty; Myself, the origin and the support if beings, yet standing

apart from them!

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, Shailendra Bhatnagar

<bhatnagar_shailendra> wrote:

> Namaste Prof Krishnamurthy-ji, I have probably asked

> this question before ....

 

 

Namaste, Shailendra-ji and others.

 

I am responding to the following final question of yours:

"So when he talks about "my Maya" in 7:14, does

he mean - Maya is a special/mysterious power of Brahman

or - Maya is a side effect of Brahman's presence

or - there is no such thing as Maya but it is simply a

misperception or misconception of the absolute reality".

 

Bhaskar Prabhuji has already answered your question and rightly has

negated your second alternative above. We are only left with the

other two alternatives. Both are right; it depends on your level of

evolution to accept one or the other.

 

Here is Sadananda-ji's answer to a similar question in one of his

posts where he was welcoming a new member on this list.

 

"In spite of the fact that Brahman alone is there and there is no

creator or creation in Brahman, you are seeing a creation separate

from Brahman. You have to redirect the question as to why are you

seeing that which is not there. It is not there and you are still

seeing the world, then there is something wrong with the vision.

Seeing something which is not there is what is called illusion or

Maaya. It is like asking gold why did you become a ring or a

bangle. Gold would say that I never became anything. I was gold, I

am gold and I shall be gold. Gold has not transformed into

anything. Similarly, we cannot blame Brahman for the creation,

since it is we who are seeing, not Brahman. That is why it is

called Maaya. That which appears to be there, but upon inquiry what

we find is what is there is only undivided or akhandam advitiiyam

Brahman. Hence, any divisions or plurality is only apparent due to

not knowing the oneness. Ignorance of Brahman is the cause for the

apparent plurality. Now depending on the student one can give some

explanation to satisfy the mind of the seeker for the plurality,

which appears to be there but really is not there.

 

One explanation is that it is creation by the Lord - Iswara. Who is

Iswara? Iswara is the one who created this world. This itself is a

circular definition. When did he create this? Here, we have a

problem. If we say some time ago, but time is also one of the

created things too. Before time concept if the creation is there

then one cannot talk about beginning for a creation since beginning

is a concept of time. Hence, creation is beginning less - That

which is beginning less and endless can only be a cycle. You cannot

ask when the cycle starts since that question is illogical. Second

logic itself is the concept of the intellect. However, intellect

itself is part of the creation. You are asking a logical question

using your intellect and seeking a logical answer about that which

is beyond the intellect and beyond the concept of time. Hence Swami

Vivekananda's answer. All these questions arise only because you

are asking about a creation, which is not there to start with.

Since it appears to be there, let us call it as Maaya.

 

Another way to answer and stop the student from asking any more is

to say this is all liila or play of the Lord. Why he has to play?

Why not? If He has to be accountable for why and how then he is no

more Lord. Why - that is why! One has to be the Lord to understand

his motivation of the creation. If you are happy with this answer

than what Swami Vivekanandaji's gave - that is O.K. you are Bhakta.

We do not question any more why? That is HIS WILL.

 

Therefore, my friend let us not blame Brahman since he has nothing

to do with all this. There is no karma or karta in Brahman. He is

homogenous mass of absolute sat chit and ananda - satyam jnaana and

anantam. There is no jiiva nor the world nor karma nor anything

other than himself.

 

However, we who think we are different from Brahman then we have

this problem. The most useful question is then why do we think we

are different from Braham? The whole scripture keep screaming at us

saying that you are that Brahman; tat tvam asi. Unfortunately we do

not readily accept the truth of the Vedanta and we keep questioning

how can I or you be

Brahman.

 

For that, we need to study the scriptures and see the truth as

expounded by the scriptures"

 

In our own list Milind Joshi-ji asked a similar question recently;

and I answered it by going back to Maitreya's answer to Vidura's

same question in the Bhagavatam. This answer of mine is also a kind

of reply to your question, Shailendra-ji. You may see it in

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m25887.html

 

It contains a beautiful analogy by Sant Jnaneshvar which is worth

all attention and nididhyasana. Of course, as you said, (and Bhaskar

Prabhuji approved) 2.16 and 5.14 of the Gita fully answers the

question, though at a 'higher' level.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaste:

 

Sri Sachin's message of the explanation of Bhagwan Ramana is quite

precise by indicating that our 'delusion' is the reason for the

confusion. This chapter introduces "Isvara" to help us to get over our

delusion in several steps. The very step is surrendering our 'ego'

to "Isvara." Isvara serves as the 'ladder' to get out of the deep well

of samsara. Those of you who want to get detailed explanation on

linkage between Brahaman, Isvara, World and the deluded Jiva should

read the earlier discussions of Gita Satsangh during July-September,

2001. These discussions can be accessed from the archived files. I

strongly recommend everyone to read the following referenced articles

which are the explanations of Swami Dayananda Saraswati of Arsha Vidya

Gurukulam.

 

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10507.html

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10508.html

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10810.html

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10811.html

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10812.html

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10813.html

http://www.escribe.com/culture/advaitin/m10814.html

 

warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "Sachin Chavan" <chavansachin@h...>

wrote:

> that Brahman is real, that the universe is unreal and that Brahman is

the

> universe. He did not stop with the second. The third statement

explains the

> first two; it signifies that when the universe is perceived apart from

> Brahman that perception is false and illusory. What it amounts to is

that

> the phenomena are real when experienced as the Self (Brahman) and

illusory

> when seen apart from the Self"

>

> When I read this my confusion over this issue was over once and for

all.

> Hope it works similarly for you.