Does the world disappear?

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

“On Realization of Self-Knowledge, the World

disappears”. This statement I have read in many places

and I am very confused, or is it because I am not able

to understand/appreciate this? Does the world

disappear just like the snake appeared on the rope

disappears, or the pearl appeared on the shell

disappears, and they appear as rope and shell

respectively? I understand and appreciate when it

comes to Rope Knowledge and Shell Knowledge and there

is disappearance of the snake and the pearl. However,

when it comes to Self-Knowledge, does the world

disappear and if so what appears in its place?

They say, on Self Realization the world disappears and

there is absolute bliss only. If the world disappears,

will the body (which is also part of the world, i.e.

idam or other than the absolute I) of that realized

knower also not disappear, at least for him? It is

also said, on realization Awareness shines. Does the

Awareness not shine always and is there any special

shining of Awareness once self-knowledge takes place?

Is any negation required (neti neti), or any special

effort/sadhana required to appreciate that Awarenss

always shines?

I look forward to get some clarification on these

points from our learned members.

R.S. Mani

 

 

 

 

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advaitin

[advaitin] On Behalf Of R.S.MANI

Thursday, June 23, 2005 10:45 PM

advaitin

Does the world disappear?

 

 

 

Namaste,

"On Realization of Self-Knowledge, the World

disappears". This statement I have read in many places

and I am very confused, or is it because I am not able

to understand/appreciate this? Does the world

disappear just like the snake appeared on the rope

disappears, or the pearl appeared on the shell

disappears, and they appear as rope and shell

respectively? I understand and appreciate when it

comes to Rope Knowledge and Shell Knowledge and there

is disappearance of the snake and the pearl. However,

when it comes to Self-Knowledge, does the world

disappear and if so what appears in its place?

 

 

 

Good question Maniji. Your asking the question and my

answering it is all part of the worldly phenomena. If I

were to say, when the world disappears, this will

happen or something would replace it, would I be saying

it as part of the world or standing independently of

the world? In other words, If I am answering the

question as part of the transient phenomena that occurs

in the world, or that is the world, then it is not

clear what the meaning of my answer would be. On the

other hand, if I am standing fully independent of the

world and the world does not appear to me at all, then

it is not clear who I would be answering.

 

 

 

By the way, did anyone clarify the vedic shloka about

how Brahmacharya should be practiced in the day time

but not at night?

 

 

They say, on Self Realization the world disappears and

there is absolute bliss only. If the world disappears,

will the body (which is also part of the world, i.e.

idam or other than the absolute I) of that realized

knower also not disappear, at least for him?

 

 

 

Yes!

 

 

 

 

 

It is also said, on realization Awareness shines. Does

the

Awareness not shine always and is there any special

shining of Awareness once self-knowledge takes place?

 

 

 

There is an extra special shining involved. Other wise

why all the commotion.

 

 

 

 

Is any negation required (neti neti), or any special

effort/sadhana required to appreciate that Awarenss

always shines?

 

 

 

We are not separate from Awareness. Possibly the effort

and sadhana depends on destiny or karma.

 

 

 

I look forward to get some clarification on these

points from our learned members.

 

 

 

Self-Realization involves total forgetfulness of all

learning.

 

 

 

*

R.S. Mani

 

..

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

praNAms

Hare Krishna

 

prabhuji, kindly allow me to share few of my thoughts on the below

questions....

 

Mani prabhuji:

 

"On Realization of Self-Knowledge, the World

disappears". This statement I have read in many places

and I am very confused, or is it because I am not able

to understand/appreciate this?

 

bhaskar :

 

After the dawn of knowledge *the wrong* knowledge about the world

disappears...jnAni's realisation is that it reveals the fact that there

was/is/will be no world whatsoever at any point of time...

 

Mani prabhuji:

 

 

Does the world disappear just like the snake appeared on the rope

disappears, or the pearl appeared on the shell

disappears, and they appear as rope and shell

respectively?

 

bhaskar :

 

The question needs to be asked here is...were the snake & pearl really

there on rope & shell respectively before realization ?? After the *right*

knowledge of rope & shell, the realizer knows that rope & shell

were/are/will be always *rope & shell* only nothing else!!!

 

Mani prabhuji:

 

I understand and appreciate when it

comes to Rope Knowledge and Shell Knowledge and there

is disappearance of the snake and the pearl.

 

bhaskar :

 

again, it is the *wrong knowledge* about rope & shell which will disappear

& it_is_not anyway disappeance of non-existent snake & pearl...where to

bring the snake & pearl to take them away from the rope & shell prabhuji??

when it is rope & shell always!!!

 

Mani prabhuji:

 

However, when it comes to Self-Knowledge, does the world

disappear and if so what appears in its place?

 

bhaskar :

 

strictly speaking, nothing comes & goes....if the self realization leads to

the process of one appearance in place of another.... it is again ajnAna

only...not the self knowledge...Atma jnAna does not present anything new

prabhuji.

 

Mani prabhuji:

 

They say, on Self Realization the world disappears and

there is absolute bliss only.

 

bhaskar :

it is not two step process..i.e. world disappearance AND then bliss..jnAni

knows that there was never ever world as such at any stage..its been always

bliss & it was only ajnAna which was the hindrance to realize this ever

existing bliss!!!

 

Mani prabhuji:

 

If the world disappears, will the body (which is also part of the world,

i.e.

idam or other than the absolute I) of that realized knower also not

disappear, at least for him?

 

bhaskar :

 

Where is the question of body for a jnAni?? when he realizes his advitIya

nature where is the question of body, senses & the world?? Here it should

be noted that it is only effacement of the idea of one's identity with

*body* of *vishwa* & *taijasa* & resultant perception of waking & dream

worlds!! what will be the status of body of jnAni after realization??

just as the cast-off slough of a snake would lie lifeless in an ant hill.

so does the body of the enlightened person life there...and he is now

really dEhAtIta (bodiless), prANAtIta, avasthAtIta (beyond any states) he

is brahman alone!! so says bruhadAraNyaka shruti. Patanjala yOga followers

may rise their head and says Oh!! this state is possible only in the

Nirvikalpa samAdhi, so nirvikalpa/asaMprajnaTha samAdhi is the must to

experience absolute state of advaita.....NO...shankara categorically says

that brahma jnAna is not the other state where vyavahAra is absent..it only

transcends the vyavahAra with sublated knowledge.

 

Mani prabhuji:

 

It is also said, on realization Awareness shines. Does the

Awareness not shine always and is there any special

shining of Awareness once self-knowledge takes place?

 

bhaskar :

 

As said above...self evident nature of Atman is svataH pramANa...it is not

kAlAntara nor lOkAntara nor avasthAntara jnAna.

 

Mani prabhuji:

 

Is any negation required (neti neti), or any special

effort/sadhana required to appreciate that Awarenss

always shines?

 

bhaskar :

 

nEti nEti jnAna naturally comes to jnAni as he has the intuitive knowledge

that the existence of world is temporary & restricted to particular avasthA

& he is mere witness to it!!

 

Mani prabhuji:

 

I look forward to get some clarification on these points from our learned

members.

R.S. Mani

 

bhaskar :

 

This is only my opinion based on my studies in advaita &

gurUpadEsha...kindly pardon me if I said anything contrary to prevalent

understanding of advaita.

 

humble praNAms

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

I think everyone answered the question - here is simple analogy.

 

World is nothing but Brahman is knowledge and it does involve any

transformation of world into Brahman.

 

The Snake-role analogy is only partial to explain the adhyhaasa. The

other analogy that is used is Mirage water. Another example is sunrise

and sunset. Knowledge that sun neither raises nor sets does not

eliminate the sunrise or sunset but only appreciates the truth behind

the sunrise and sunset. After knowing very well that sun never raises

not sets, one can still appreciate the sunrise and sunset and continue

to transact at vyavahaara level with sunrises and sets.

 

After realization, only the notions that world is real and I am separate

from the world, etc disappears. I will still see the plurality but I

will not have the delusion that plurality is real.

 

As usual, the waking world disappears with the dream world and dream

world with the deep sleep state.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Sri Harshaji,

Namaste, and thank you for your note.

<<<<By the way, did anyone clarify the vedic shloka

about

how Brahmacharya should be practiced in the day time

but not at night?>>>>

I recollect hearing some sloka about this. I cannot

recollect where exactly I heard it, whether in some

Upanishads or some Bhashya etc. If it is talking about

“day” and “night” for practicing and not practicing

brahmacharya, there is sanction and one is allowed to

practice it in night.

Can it mean, brahmacharya can be practiced (I do not

understand how one practices Brahmacharya), while one

is in darkness, i.e. ignorance about his own self and

other than the self; and when he is in light, i.e.

when he has self-knowledge, he should practice it? If

that is the case, not practicing brahmacharya is only

after realization, and it is not a pre-requisite for

gaining(?) self knowledge.

Already a detailed discussion has taken place about

“Brahmacharya”. However, I was told, brahmacharya

involves discipline in indulging in all sensual

pleasures, not only sex, and not complete avoidance of

them. I heard a story that even Adi Shakaracharya had

to enter the body of a dead king in order to

experience what happens during sex. This happened

during his debate with Mandana Mishra (or is it

Mandala Mishra)? I do not know how real that was. I

also think enquiring into such episodes is just waste

of time.

The creation is wonderful and perfect. For thirst

water is there, for hunger food is there and for

sexual urge the other sex is there. I do not know why

there is so much talk against sex in the context of

Atmagnanam. Maybe my understanding requires a lot of

further polishing. Personally, I do think total

avoidance only amounts to “markata vairagyam”.

>>>If the world disappears, will the body (which is

also part of the world, i.e. idam or other than the

absolute I) of that realized knower also not

disappear, at least for him?<<<

<<<Yes!>>>

If that is the case, (i.e. “Yes”), how a Gnani

continues to talk to anyone as he knows he has no body

and the “other” is not there. It cannot be that, one

knows something and does exactly opposite of that, as

our dear politicians do now a days!

The body never disappears, but his knowledge that his

body is he himself gets corrected and he can see his

body as he can see any other objects, (which he used

to see previously also, but there was a confusion and

mixing up) and he makes use of the body with that

wisdom while in vyavahara. I may be wrong again.

What disappears is the false/wrong knowledge (result

of ignorance) about “I” (aham), “other than I” (idam)

and Eswara. Such a realized one no more looks to the

world for being/becoming happy, and equally does not

blame the world for any suffering he has. He knows for

sure that they are all passing shows.

<<<There is an extra special shining involved. Other

wise

why all the commotion.>>>

Involved where? Please pardon me, I am not trying to

enter into an argument.

I think the commotion may be there because of the

language/teaching prakriya (methodology of teaching)

used while unfolding self knowledge, particularly

about “anubhava” or experience one has to wait for

after self-knowledge. On the one hand it is told, the

tripudi vanishes on self knowledge, i.e. difference

between subject, object and knowledge or connection

between the former two, and on the other hand one is

told, one must experience or one experiences the self,

total bliss or Brahma Anandam, after/once

self-knowledge takes place. If that be the case, who

is the experiencer and what is the experienced?

<<<Self-Realization involves total forgetfulness of

all

learning.>>>

May I say, it involves not total correction of the

earlier knowledge/notions about one’s self, the world,

and Iswara. With this wisdom, he can continue to do

vyavahara, and he does that with total inner calmness,

as such a person is firmly abiding in the knowledge

that Self is Sat Chit Anand i.e. lacks nothing and

therefore Poorna, and the imperfection or apoornatwam

he perceives belong to non-self, anatma, which has

only name and form for its existence as anatma, as

when stripped (no physical stripping of involved) of

its name and form, it is Atma only i.e. Self. In fact,

there is no anatma or non-self in reality. It, anatma,

is used while unfolding the Knowledge about Self. The

distance between atma and anatma is only from the

point of knowledge and there is no physical distance

at all. That is, it is all about knowing only, like

the distance of a gold chain from the gold itself.

There is no negation of anatma involved. What is to be

negated is the false knowledge or mithya-gnanam about

one’s self, about the world, and about Iswara.

The teaching is only to remind oneself about what is

real and what is mithya (neither real, nor unreal, and

not both(!)) or making one to remember that fact and

therefore “shastram gnapakarthameva”.

PLEASE DO NOT THINK FOR A MOMENT THAT WHATEVER I HAVE

MANAGED TO GRASP MAY NOT BE WHAT EXACTLY THE GREAT

TEACHERS/PEOPLE WANTED TO CONVEY WITH REGARD TO SELF

KNOWLEDGE. IT IS ALSO NOT MY DESIRE TO JUDGE WHICH

PRAKRIYA IS THE RIGHT ONE, ETC., BECAUSE I AM STILL

TRYING TO ASSIMILATE ONLY. MAYBE I REQUIRE A LOT OF

GRACE FOR GETTING INTO IT FURTHER.

Hari Om

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

_____

 

advaitin

[advaitin] On Behalf Of R.S.MANI

Friday, June 24, 2005 7:32 AM

advaitin

RE: Does the world disappear?

 

 

Sri Harshaji,

Namaste, and thank you for your note.

 

 

 

Sri Maniji,

 

 

 

You are welcome. I tried to convey the essence in the

first paragraph.

 

 

 

Snip..

 

 

PLEASE DO NOT THINK FOR A MOMENT THAT WHATEVER I HAVE

MANAGED TO GRASP MAY NOT BE WHAT EXACTLY THE GREAT

TEACHERS/PEOPLE WANTED TO CONVEY WITH REGARD TO SELF

KNOWLEDGE. IT IS ALSO NOT MY DESIRE TO JUDGE WHICH

PRAKRIYA IS THE RIGHT ONE, ETC., BECAUSE I AM STILL

TRYING TO ASSIMILATE ONLY. MAYBE I REQUIRE A LOT OF

GRACE FOR GETTING INTO IT FURTHER.

Hari Om

 

**************************************************

 

Self-Realization is freedom from thoughts and concepts

and learning, etc. All of these pertain to the bodies,

physical, mental, gross or subtle. Sri Ramana used to

say that the Grace is ever present as the Self.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Lord krishna says in Bhagavad Gita and the same has been explained by

Sri Rajaji in a book. he says:

 

I pervade this entire world in form unmanifest; all beings abide in

Me, but I stand apart from them!

 

And yet beings are not rooted in Me. Behold the scheme of My

sovereignty; Myself, the origin and the support if beings, yet

standing apart from them!

 

Suppose a magician creates a tank of water and by the same magic

fills it with fish and other aquatic animals with some understanding

though limited. The fish must take the water and the tank and all the

conditions of their life in the magic tank as "natural", and do not

know that it is all but the magician's will, quite as much as they

themselves are the will of the magician. Even if he had created, not

water and fish, but kerosene and fish living therein, and even if the

kerosene changed into water and the water into kerosene on alternate

days, the knowing fish would have taken it all as "natural" and made

a synthesis of all that they observed, and mentally codified it into

a body of natural laws. They would be incognizant of the real author

and controller. In the same way do the laws of physical nature hide

God, though they are but the manifestation of His will. So perfect is

His rule that He disappears from the scene, but He is ever present in

the Law itself.

 

The will of God acts as the continuous natural creative force of the

world, Yoga-Maya, as it is termed in chapter seven, and the

untranscendable rule of Law, described as Yogam Aisvaram in chapter

nine. It is God that works throughout all the seeming phases and

complexities of life.

[Guest guest]

--- kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada

wrote:

> After realization, only the notions that world is

> real and I am separate

> from the world, etc disappears. I will still see

> the plurality but I

> will not have the delusion that plurality is real.

 

Namaste Shri Sadananda-ji, One wonders though how many

succeed in this endeavour. Assuming reincarnation is

true and given the population growth in the world,

failure seems to be the norm. Secondly, by

"Self-realization", neither anything is added to

Brahman nor is Brahman missing something without

realization. The one without the second, remains one

with the second, whether or not some humans "achieve

Self-realization". Now it does cause a cessation of

human births but does it matter how many dream and how

many are awake ? Common sense and logic tell us that

the world population will continue to grow. The

dreamers (the ones deluded by Adhyasa) will continue

to be born or is there some divine plan to wake up

these dreamers ? But what plan when from the absolute

perspective, there is no phenomenal world.

 

Just some random musings.

 

thanks and regards,

Shailendra

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

--- Shailendra Bhatnagar

<bhatnagar_shailendra wrote:

> Common sense and logic tell us that

> the world population will continue to grow.

 

OFcourse not indefinitely.

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Shailendraji

 

The world’s creation, sustenance and annihilation are a cyclic process

and will go on forever.

 

A realized person sees this as either as - leela of Bhagavaan or enjoy

as his own glory - pasyam me yogam iswaryam - Arjuna see my glory.

 

Population increase - you are looking at just one planet in the whole

cosmos - Now we are just beginning to discover the existence of

planetary systems in other stars - there are billions of stars in each

galaxy and perhaps billions of galaxies - It is mind boggling to imagine

the extent of this creation.

 

Our own body has billions of microorganisms. Imagine what happens if

they are all decided to evolve into human forms.

 

So world will never come to end. What comes to an end is our notions

about the world as separate from us. Does the world comes to end when

we go to dream state or deep sleep state -During realization one

realizes sarva bhuutastu aatmaanam sarva bhuutani ca aatmani - oneself

in all beings and all beings in oneself - That is the understanding of

Brahmajanni. The plurality is understood as ones glory.

Phenomenal world remains as phenomenal world - but recognized as the

phenomena of the total potential - the sat chit ananda swaruupa - that

is what it implies as my yoga and my iswaryam.

 

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

 

 

--- Shailendra Bhatnagar <bhatnagar_shailendra wrote:

> --- kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada

> wrote:

> > After realization, only the notions that world is

> > real and I am separate

> > from the world, etc disappears. I will still see

> > the plurality but I

> > will not have the delusion that plurality is real.

>

> Namaste Shri Sadananda-ji, One wonders though how many

> succeed in this endeavour. Assuming reincarnation is

> true and given the population growth in the world,

> failure seems to be the norm. Secondly, by

> "Self-realization", neither anything is added to

> Brahman nor is Brahman missing something without

> realization. The one without the second, remains one

> with the second, whether or not some humans "achieve

> Self-realization". Now it does cause a cessation of

> human births but does it matter how many dream and how

> many are awake ? Common sense and logic tell us that

> the world population will continue to grow. The

> dreamers (the ones deluded by Adhyasa) will continue

> to be born or is there some divine plan to wake up

> these dreamers ? But what plan when from the absolute

> perspective, there is no phenomenal world.

>

> Just some random musings.

>

> thanks and regards,

> Shailendra

>

>

>

> __

> Sports

> Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football

> http://football.fantasysports.

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin, kuntimaddi sadananda

<kuntimaddisada> wrote:

>

> Shailendraji

>

they are all decided to evolve into human forms.

>

> So world will never come to end. What comes to an end is our

notions

> about the world as separate from us. Does the world comes to end

when

> we go to dream state or deep sleep state -During realization one

> realizes sarva bhuutastu aatmaanam sarva bhuutani ca aatmani -

oneself

> in all beings and all beings in oneself - That is the

understanding of

> Brahmajanni. The plurality is understood as ones glory.

> Phenomenal world remains as phenomenal world - but recognized as

the

> phenomena of the total potential - the sat chit ananda swaruupa -

that

> is what it implies as my yoga and my iswaryam.

 

 

Namaste KS,

 

I beg to differ with you on this last statement, as you haven't

completed it. What you are describing is the Mukta's view of the

world not the bodiless Mukta.

 

According to the Sages the world disappears on bodiless Mukta for it

never happened in the first place.

 

So this infinite dream of creation, with infinite universes, not

only disappears on pralaya but actully didn't happen in the first

place. That is why in a dream anything is possible. There is an end

but no beginning, for there never was a start...........ONS....Tony.

[Guest guest]

Namste Tony-Ji:

 

This is probably elegantly answered in aShTaavakra giitaa. As one

gets the realization that so called mukta or bandhana.

 

na me bandho.asti mokhso va bhraantiH shantaa niraashrayaa | ..

2.18 ..

 

Meaning - I have no bondage or mokhsa because if bondage is illusion

then where is moksha? Becoming non-dependent of illusion has helped

quit the illusion.

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

 

advaitin, "Tony OClery" <aoclery> wrote:

> advaitin, kuntimaddi sadananda

> <kuntimaddisada> wrote:

> >

> > Shailendraji

> >

>

 

What comes to an end is our

> notions

> > about the world as separate from us. Does the world comes to

end

> when

> > we go to dream state or deep sleep state -During realization one

> > realizes sarva bhuutastu aatmaanam sarva bhuutani ca aatmani -

> oneself

> > in all beings and all beings in oneself - That is the

> understanding of

> > Brahmajanni.

>

 

 

> Namaste KS,

>

> I beg to differ with you on this last statement, as you haven't

> completed it. What you are describing is the Mukta's view of the

> world not the bodiless Mukta.

>

> According to the Sages the world disappears on bodiless Mukta for

it

> never happened in the first place.

>

> So this infinite dream of creation, with infinite universes, not

> only disappears on pralaya but actully didn't happen in the first

> place. That is why in a dream anything is possible. There is an

end

> but no beginning, for there never was a

start...........ONS....Tony.

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

There are two stories about Shuka-brahmam, the boy sage who narrated

the Bhagavatam to King Parikshit in seven days. The first story is

supported by the shloka referenced below from the Bhagavatam. For

the second one, I don't know the source. But both have much to tell

us about what it means to say "Worlds disappear for the brahma-

jnAni":

 

`yam pravrajantaM ...'. (Bh. I – 2 – 2) Shuka was not interested in

any mundane pursuit. So he started to leave for sannyAsa. And when

he was going thus, the father Vyasa, in passionate affection, cries

out Oh Son Shuka! And, lo and behold, all the trees in the

neighbourhood responded to the call with a `What' and `Why', as if

they had been called. The boy sage Shuka had that pervasion of the

entire universe in him and he had himself permeated the entire

universe, so that the trees themselves felt they were being called!

It is because of this `brahma-bhAva' of Shuka, that advaitins

usually refer to Shuka as Shuka-brahmam. He was in brahman, and of

brahman all the time. `brahmavit brahmaiva bhavati'. – The knower of

brahman becomes brahman.

 

This greatness of Shuka as a realized sage was known to all. In

fact there is another story which highlights the difference between

the enlightened Shuka and the comparatively `less enlightened'

father Vyasa! The youth Shuka goes about naked but even the women

bathing in the river as he passes by have no inhibitions of shameful

feeling sighting him because they know he is a brahma-jnAni and for

him worldly things have no effect on him. But just after he passed

out of sight, the father Vyasa who has been following him, is

sighted and the women immediately cover themselves up! And it

appears Vyasa did ask them an explanation for this curious behaviour

of theirs. And they had to tell him the truth that the youthful son

did not even note there were members of the opposite sex around,

whereas the good old man Vyasa did worry about `the behaviour of

women' in his presence!

 

This by the way is what is meant by `World disappears' for the

brahma-jnAni. The world `is' there but he sees only brahman! (Gita

VI – 30; XIII – 27) We do not understand it because between

brahma-jnAna and us probably there are several ages of time!! And

all our words have to fail in talking about this understanding!!!

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

This story also appears in The mahaabhaara, shantiparva 333

 

This tells us that the pioneer and one of the most knowledgeable

titans vedvyasa was not immune attachments either. Learning that

shuka is going for sanyaasa, vyasa started crying (tataH shuketi

diirgheNa shabdakaakranditastadaa || MB. Sha. 333.22 ||

 

Further, shanka concoles vyasa who was disheartened due to putra shoka

that he had asked for a son that is as powerful as agni, bhuumi, jala,

vayu and aakaasha. Some of the story you have already narrated. The

relevant portion in original is cited below:

 

ta.n devagandharvavR^ito maharShigaNapUjitaH .

pinAka hasto bhavagAnabhyAgachchhata sha~NkaraH .. 31..\\

tamuvAcha mahAdevaH sAntvapUrvamida.n vachaH .

putrashokAbhisantapta.n kR^iShNadvaipAyanaM tadA .. 32..\\

agnerbhUmerapA.n vAyorantarikShasya chaiva ha .

vIryeNa sadR^ishaH putrastvayA mattaH purA vR^itaH .. 33..\\

sa tathA lakShaNo jAtastapasA tava sambhR^itaH .

mama chaiva prabhAvena brahmatejomayaH shuchiH .. 34..\\

sa gatiM paramAM prApto duShprApAmajitendriyaiH .

daivatairapi viprarShe ta.n tvaM kimanushochasi .. 35..\\

 

The chapter ends with a very powerful statement and has a take home

message:

 

itihAsamimaM puNyaM mokShadharmArthasa.nhitam .

dhArayedyaH shama paraH sa gachchhetparamA.n gatim .. 41..\\

 

Meaning - Any one who reads this history and bears it in his heart

obtains the moksha.

 

That means all the stories not only need to be understood but also

utilized for their utility

 

Ultimately, it is all about knowledge and it's realization so that one

does not get trapped into mundane things that have limited meaning and

thus one need to look beyond. Sadananda-Ji have already simplified

the heart of the matter in his previous post.

 

Thank you Prof VK for reminding me of one my favorite stories.

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

 

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

wrote:

> Namaste.

>

> There are two stories about Shuka-brahmam, >

> This by the way is what is meant by `World disappears' for the

> brahma-jnAni. The world `is' there but he sees only brahman! (Gita

> VI – 30; XIII – 27) We do not understand it because between

> brahma-jnAna and us probably there are several ages of time!! And

> all our words have to fail in talking about this understanding!!!

>

> PraNAms to all advaitins.

> profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

good question....

 

the one who find out the answer maybe could ask...

"does the world ever realy exist?"

 

but ok....i understand the question...

 

i beleive that at the point of Self-Realization....there is first

time that this opportunity of choice is rising....to stay

being "here"....or not....

maybe there is some (individual)choice....to leave the world......or

not...

 

only few thoughts....

 

Regards

 

love and peace

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Mani-ji,

 

 

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

> "On Realization of Self-Knowledge, the World

> disappears". This statement I have read in many places

> and I am very confused, or is it because I am not able

> to understand/appreciate this? Does the world

> disappear just like the snake appeared on the rope

> disappears, or the pearl appeared on the shell

> disappears, and they appear as rope and shell

> respectively? I understand and appreciate when it

> comes to Rope Knowledge and Shell Knowledge and there

> is disappearance of the snake and the pearl. However,

> when it comes to Self-Knowledge, does the world

> disappear and if so what appears in its place?

 

 

A few words in response to your post....

 

The snake and the rope, the pearl and the shell, are mere examples.

The snake may disappear, the pearl may disappear, but the impressions

of the snake and pearl do not disappear after the snake and the rope

have disappeared. The impressions have their ground in the Knowledge

that is in the Self. The Knowledge of the Self never appears and

disappears. In the world of creation, impressions are said to arise

from past experience, but in the Truth of Self, impressions as well

as past experience have their ground in pratyabhijna - in the

recognition of things that are forever in the Self.

 

 

Before realisation, the world is not seen to be as it is. It is seen

through un-realisation. It is not what it is seen to be.

 

In unrealisation, whatever one says the world to be, is not what it

is, because what it is, is still unrealised. It cannot be said to be

either this or that whichever way one may try.

 

In unrealisation, it is therefore anirvacaniya, neither real or

unreal as it may be said to be.

 

The world seen in unrealisation partakes of both - that which is said

to be real and that which is said to be unreal.

 

On realisation, the world that is said to be unreal disappears – for

there is no thing here to go away.

 

On realisation, the world that is said to be real, never goes away –

for it always is.

 

It is no use trying to say what goes away and what stays when one is

still seeing through the magic weave of anirvacaniya. It can be known

only after realisation, not before that.

 

The paradox is that there is no such thing as before and after

realisation. The Self is always realised. The non-self is jada and

can never realise.

 

The paradox is the knot of the heart, and the Drama is wrought in

this Knot of Perplexity. He who tries to set things in order here is

a prisoner of the Drama. Setting things in order is not within the

Drama but is the unravelling of the Drama itself - it is the true

meaning of Realisation. To realise a thing is to behold what the

thing truly is - it is not making things disappear or appear.

Realisation is the knot of the heart unravelled. But all these are

mere words - it cannot be defined within the Drama.

 

The Drama is a Dance. The name of the Dance is Madness. It is the

Dance of the Intoxicated Dancer.

 

He who Loves the Dance is trapped here.

 

He who Loves the Dancer is set free forever.

 

The Dancer and the Dance are Two in the Dance, and One in the Dancer.

 

The Oneness of the Dancer is the disapperance of the otherness of the

world.

 

The Dancer is Lord Shiva. He is the Pure Whiteness of Light which

appears as the rainbow of the world through the prism of His own

Maya.

 

In the vision turned outward through the prism, the rainbow is the

world.

 

In the vision turned inward to the Light emerging through the prism,

the Rainbow is His Divine Consort.

 

In the Light that has completely sublimated the prism, She is Him.

 

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik"

<chittaranjan_naik> wrote:

>

> The snake and the rope, the pearl and the shell, are mere

examples.

> > .......

> It is no use trying to say what goes away and what stays when one

is

> still seeing through the magic weave of anirvacaniya. It can be

known

> only after realisation, not before that.

>

> The paradox is that there is no such thing as before and after

> realisation. The Self is always realised. The non-self is jada and

> can never realise.

>

> The paradox is the knot of the heart, and the Drama is wrought in

> this Knot of Perplexity. He who tries to set things in order here

is

> a prisoner of the Drama. Setting things in order is not within the

> Drama but is the unravelling of the Drama itself - it is the true

> meaning of Realisation. To realise a thing is to behold what the

> thing truly is - it is not making things disappear or appear.

> Realisation is the knot of the heart unravelled. But all these are

> mere words - it cannot be defined within the Drama.

>

> The Drama is a Dance. The name of the Dance is Madness. It is the

> Dance of the Intoxicated Dancer.

> .......

> He who Loves the Dance is trapped here.

>

> He who Loves the Dancer is set free forever.

>

> The Dancer and the Dance are Two in the Dance, and One in the

Dancer.

>

> The Oneness of the Dancer is the disapperance of the otherness of

the

> world.

> The Dancer is Lord Shiva.

 

Namaste, Chittaranjan-ji

 

What a beautiful post! We were missing you all these days!

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

Dear Atma swarups,

In the understanding of this question , I have to assume you know

the differnce between Jiva and Ishwara.

ISWARA is at the macrocosmic level, Bhraman-consciousness gets

reflected in Maya, giving rise to Iswara, THIS ISWARA is thus having

two aspects the BRAHMAN CONSCIOSNESS AND MATTER which you and I

refer to universe or the outer world or the outer virat

manifestations.

when an individual jiva through knowledge attains self realization

the outer world does not disappear or gets destroyed.As we know that

although maya at individual level operates through the mind,though

the mind of an individual is in contact with the outer world, the

world exists in totality to the colective mentations of innumerable

beings collectively contributing the the cosmic mind , the Iswara .

so for the entire world to disappear the entire iswara or collective

mind has to experienceBrahman. (whichmay be possible in paralaya).

 

So the scriptures are refering to disappearance of the world

figuratively........meaning that Experiantially Atman is experienced

and intutively and by inference all that is seen and observed is

known as brahman being its substratum. The world does not appear as

it used to and in that sense it has disappeared, noe everything is

happening in consciousness.ONE is focussed on awarenesss of

awareness rather on forms and mentations.

 

World disappearing means to have open eyes and not see forms, to

have ears open among sound and no sound perceived,probably this is

the reason our rishies invented hatha yoga...Adwaita at our stage ,

at least my stage is to accept brahman as the basis of everything

and accept maya happening within it, I meditate and call it shiva

shakti brahman for a lackof better word ,the real and unreal both

being part of the whole and all happenings as part of

brahman..........om satchitekam brahman this includes maya.....Sorry

pure unalloyed brahman,,,,,,,,,Gosh!!! I wish I could willit,

[Guest guest]

List Moderator's Note: List wants to thank the members for their continued

support to list policies and guidelines. Please do not include the previous

posters' messages in the tail end (or in the beginning) of your message while

sending your replies. Both the new members and other members do seem to continue

to repeat doing this. The list appreciates your cooperation in keeping the

message crisp and clear by removing all unnecessary parts of previous messages.

(As it was done in this message!)

 

advaitin, "SHUDDHA ATMA"

<swatantrabrahman> wrote:

> Dear Atma swarups,

> In the understanding of this question , I have to assume you know

> the differnce between Jiva and Ishwara.

> ISWARA is at the macrocosmic level, Bhraman-consciousness gets

> reflected in Maya, giving rise to Iswara, THIS ISWARA is thus

 

LET ME TRY to illustrate it with an anology of a mirage.

Unrealized state is akin to being affected by the mirage of water ,

the observer will run towards it thinking it is real , may be run

towards it to quench his thirst, or get afraid in getting drowned in

it.........but on investigation he has confirmation that it is an

illusion, and cannot quench his thirst, although he has confirmation

about this fact yet the apperance of mirage still remains it does

not seize to exist simply because someone had concluded its

unreality........so is the case of gyani in self realization

although he has confirmation about the illusory nature of MAya or

the manifested world it still appears yes the signifant personal

world of the jiva which wasbeing affected by assuming the reality of

maya will go throug radical change which in scriptures is suggested

as disapperance of the world...the world in which one gets caught up

in sorrow, raga dwesha, emotions etc etc disappears for something

blissfull ,nondemanding, is rediscovered within self realized

beings. Yey the outer world shows up in ones consciouness but it

looses its sting, its attractiveness, its repulsions which were

present pre-realization It is this that disappear.......it is this

world to which the scriptures are pointing. As our entire outer

bodies are part of maya/shakti.....that is body, mind, itellect

(antahakarana),ego. AS long the instrument of maya is around MAya

will continue to manifest that is why we have mukti with body which

is lesser in degree than vidhe mukti(without bodymind complex).

WITH LOVE AND BEST WISHES......SWATANTRA BRAHMAN GIRI

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

the world to "disappear"...it first need to exist (appear) for

real....or for unreal?

 

a real world could "come and go"?

 

does a real world ever exist?.....if the world is related to a time

and space limited mind only

 

....few questions related to the existance of Maya

 

whenever, however and wherever one travel through time and

space.....there is still the same world appearing.....as long the mind

is attached to it....means, as long the mind remain in ego-mind

 

maybe the moment of detachment to the ego-mind....and so to the time

and space limited appearing world....it is possible to "leave" the

limitations.....means, it is possible to get out of "dream-state"

 

then there is Self.....emptyness....nothingness....without form(s)....

 

so the world to "disappear" or "reappear" or just "appear"....depend

on the ego-mind....in how far it is attached to an "appearence"

 

everyone make the "experience" that the world "appear" ...depending

much on the personal mood......(as long this mood is changing ...)

and the mood change....depending on the "appearence" of the world...

 

when this kind of "experience" find an end.....by "Self-Realization"

as for example....then there is "real detachment" from the ego-mind

and world....

 

a world can very well "appear" and "disappear".....and

also "reappear".....and so on.....

maybe the nature of "appearence" make that this happen....

 

in relation to "what"....whatever could "appear" and "disappear"....?

 

....there must be something ....forever staying for

Real..."Being"....."Consciousness"

in relation to a world.....which "come and go"....

 

....and again....there is Self....

remaining....and (realy) nothing else

 

....few thoughts

with open mind...

thanks for the correction of mistakes

 

Regards

 

peace and love

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

What you are describing is the Mukta's view of the

world not the bodiless Mukta.

 

According to the Sages the world disappears on bodiless Mukta for it

never happened in the first place.

 

praNAms Tony prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

It is really baffling me to see your repeated insistence on with body

(sadEha) & without body (vidEha) mOksha. Eventhough you are miticulously

following the doctrine of ajAta vAda you are *still* distinguishing the two

different states of mOkSha....why do you think advaita paramArTha jnAna can

happen ONLY in bodyless state...first of all where is the question of body

& its entanglement to brahma jnAni?? when shruti asserts brahmavit

brahmaiva bhavati...it does not anyway mean brahma vit *dEhAntare or dEha

tyAgAnantare* brahmaiva bhavati....is it not?? jnAni realizes that *he

was/is/will not be entangled with BMI at any point of time....so, it hardly

matters whether a jnAni has a body or otherwise.

 

In bruhadAraNyaka shruti bhAshya shankra confirms this by saying how

jnAni's body is immetarial after realization. Here after the dawn of

ultimate knowledge jnAni is nothing but brahman since he has no vAsana-s

(desires) that may cause the limitation of his jIvahood. And this ultimate

realization happens & he becomes brahman *in this very life only, not when

the body falls*. It is to be noted that jnAni after shedding his mortal

coil, will not undergo any change of condition that which is something

different from that of what he was when he was in life or with the body,

but he is only not connected with other avidyAkruta upAdhi (i.e. limited

adjuncts of names & forms). This is what is meant in shruti vAkya

*brahmaiva bhavati* or jIva-s merging in brahman. If the ultimate

liberation was a change of condition & if it is mere lOkAntara or

janmAntara or dEhAntara jnAna (vidEha mukti) as you said above then it

would contradict the unity of the Self (atmaikatva) that all the shruti-s

seek to teach.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

>

> What you are describing is the Mukta's view of the

> world not the bodiless Mukta.

>

> According to the Sages the world disappears on bodiless Mukta for

it

> never happened in the first place.

>

> praNAms Tony prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> It is really baffling me to see your repeated insistence on with

body

> (sadEha) & without body (vidEha) mOksha. Eventhough you are

miticulously

> following the doctrine of ajAta vAda you are *still*

distinguishing the two

> different states of mOkSha....why do you think advaita paramArTha

jnAna can

> happen ONLY in bodyless state...first of all where is the question

of body

> & its entanglement to brahma jnAni?? when shruti asserts brahmavit

> brahmaiva bhavati...it does not anyway mean brahma vit *dEhAntare

or dEha

> tyAgAnantare* brahmaiva bhavati....is it not?? jnAni realizes

that *he

> was/is/will not be entangled with BMI at any point of time....so,

it hardly

> matters whether a jnAni has a body or otherwise.

 

Namaste Bhaskarji,

 

Obviously the senses of the body/mind complex still appear to exist,

as much as anything else does in this non happening illusion.

This raises the point of embodied Moksha, an important question. For

the Ego is dead so the Mukti is pure Brahman.

 

So what and who is motivating the surviving body/mind?

 

I have often pondered on this question and the only answer is Saguna

Brahman/Sakti/Prarabda Karma. Providing we some validity

to illusion whilst we are in it.

 

So there are not two different states of moksha really, for the Ego

only goes once, but the prarabda plays out the final turns of the

wheel, on its behalf..........ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

Namste Toni-Ji:

 

In these regards I like Nagaarjunaa's statement in his maadhyamika

kaarika. He says no matter how great a advaita pundit may but if he

wishes to live in this vyaavahaarika world the "samvR^ittika truth

is necessary.

 

vyaavaharamanaashritya paramaatho na deshyate |

paramaathmanaagamya nirvaaNa.m naadhigamyate || Maa. kaa. 20.18 ||

 

Meaning - Without the help of vyavahaaraa paramaartha cannot be

realized and without realizing paramaartha narvaaNa is not possible.

 

Thus in my understanding it all comes down to realization of what

was causing the attachment and then consciously trying to remain

detached through such realization.

 

That is why giitaa ends with the statement from arjuna - "naShTo

mohaa" and then he is ready to perform his svadharma without

attachment.

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

 

 

advaitin, "Tony OClery" <aoclery> wrote:

> advaitin, bhaskar.yr@i... wrote:

> >

> > jnAni realizes

> that *he

> > was/is/will not be entangled with BMI at any point of

time....so,

> it hardly

> > matters whether a jnAni has a body or otherwise.

>

 

> Namaste Bhaskarji,

>

 

> This raises the point of embodied Moksha, an important question.

For

> the Ego is dead so the Mukti is pure Brahman.

>

> So what and who is motivating the surviving body/mind?

>

> I have often pondered on this question and the only answer is

Saguna

> Brahman/Sakti/Prarabda Karma. Providing we some validity

> to illusion whilst we are in it.

>

> So there are not two different states of moksha really, for the

Ego

> only goes once, but the prarabda plays out the final turns of the

> wheel, on its behalf..........ONS...Tony.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Bhaskarji,

 

Humble praNAms Sri Tony prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

TC prabhuji:

 

Obviously the senses of the body/mind complex still appear to exist,

as much as anything else does in this non happening illusion.

 

bhaskar :

 

but that is not for the jnAni who has intuitively realized that he

was/is/will not be embodied in body, mind & intellect complex....this is

what precisely shankara saying in bruhadAraNyaka shruti which I quoted

yesterday.

 

TC prabhuji:

 

This raises the point of embodied Moksha, an important question. For

the Ego is dead so the Mukti is pure Brahman.

So what and who is motivating the surviving body/mind?

 

bhaskar :

 

guNAguNEshu vartante....answered this question in gIta by krishna...jnAni

cannot willfully motivate for the survival of *his* body & mind...he knows

that it is there just like that as other things (svabhAvastu pravartate) &

it is mere nAma & rUpa upAdhi & he does not think that he is restricted

himself within the boundaries of *his* body & mind...when he is living in

ALL with all his glory how can he still have the urge to maintain *his*

body prabhuji??

 

TC prabhuji:

 

I have often pondered on this question and the only answer is Saguna

Brahman/Sakti/Prarabda Karma. Providing we some validity

to illusion whilst we are in it.

 

bhaskar :

 

ofcourse prabhuji jnAni does give validity to the temporary appearance of

this nAma & rUpa upAdhi....but it does not anyway mean that he gives

*validity* to appearance when it comes to paramArtha & thinks *ONLY* after

falling of this *illusionary body* he will become secondless brahman!!

 

TC prabhuji:

 

So there are not two different states of moksha really, for the Ego

only goes once, but the prarabda plays out the final turns of the

wheel, on its behalf..........ONS...Tony.

 

bhaskar :

 

jnAni is not bound by any karma (action)/karma phala (fruits of action)

whatsoever...saMpUrNa vAsAna kshaya & Atyantika karma phala nAsha happen

after realization of one's true nature ( there is an elaborated discussion

on this issue in sUtra bhAshya & bruhadAraNyaka bhAshya of shankara). For

that matter, we know through shruti assertion that jnAni is nothing but

brahman itself...how can brahman bound by prArabdha karma?? it may also

lead to another absurdity that brahman gets his final liberation ONLY after

the *death* of brahman's body!!! is it not?? Does not the kArika say in

absolute sense there is no aspirant, no liberation it is yEkamEvAdvitIya

satya prabhuji??

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar