“Prarabdha –vis-à-vis Purushartha”

[Guest guest]

Namaste, all

 

Shastra says my current birth is as a result of my Prarabdha and that Prarabdha

plays a vital role in my current life journey. I am also told that I have

“Purushartha” by which I can improve my lot. Considering the operation of

Prarabdha, how much freedom do I have in going for Purushartha? Is my going for

Purushartha also guided/decided/dictated by the operation of Prarabdha? If not,

how much freedom I do have in using my free will in the context of Purushartha.

If my Prarabdha decides everything, even my pursing Purushartha, where do I

stand?

 

My Swamiji told me once, that it is the same freedom a cow has, to move within a

circle from the center of the circle, where it is tied to a pole. It cannot move

beyond that. Does it mean that our free-will is limited to a certain extend

only, as beyond that Prarabdha will be in operation? Or, even that limited free

will is dictated by Prarabdha?

 

Learned members of the group are requested to kindly give their views on this

point.

 

With Pranams to all

 

R.S.Mani

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

namaste,

my experience tells me that we have very

little freedom from the limits imposed by prarabdha.

even getting a guru who can help overcome

pararabdha is dicttated by parabdha.???

a.v.krshnan

--- "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani wrote:

>

 

 

 

 

_________

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>

> Namaste, all

>

> Shastra says my current birth is as a result of my Prarabdha and

that Prarabdha plays a vital role in my current life journey. I am

also told that I have "Purushartha" by which I can improve my lot.

Considering the operation of Prarabdha, how much freedom do I have in

going for Purushartha?

 

Namaste R S,

 

We cannot change a thing in this lifetime except our attitude to

events. However we can improve our future lives as it where, based on

the attitudes we take in this one. Everything really happens at once

for there is no time as such, even within this non happening

illusion...........ONS..Tony.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>

> Considering the operation of Prarabdha, how much freedom do I have

in going for Purushartha? Is my going for Purushartha also

guided/decided/dictated by the operation of Prarabdha? If not, how

much freedom I do have in using my free will in the context of

Purushartha. If my Prarabdha decides everything, even my pursing

Purushartha, where do I stand?

>

>>

> R.S.Mani

>

 

Namaste, Mani-ji

 

Please see the following extract from 'Dialogue on Freee will and

Divine Will' and please follow it up, if necessary before and after.

.......

TD: Fate is only our prArabdha karma which nobody can escape. It

seems even divine intervention cannot change it. Many of our stotras

which promise eradication of all sin as the result of recitation of

that stotra, are careful to imply only the destruction of sanchita

karma and not prArabdha karma. Sometimes it says this explicitly as

in "sanchita-pApa vinAshaka lingam" in LingAshhTakaM. PrArabdha

karma has to be exhausted only by experiencing it.

 

 

DDW: But it is our attitude to the experience that changes according

to our trust in God.

 

 

TD: That is where our level of spiritual evolution enters the

picture. A trust in God and his omnipotence does not mean that

we `believe' in Fate. It is wrong to think so. It is the first step

for the correct understanding of Hindu philosophy and spirituality.

 

 

DFW : Does not the omnipotence of God mean that unless He wills it

we cannot become spiritual?

 

TD: You are raising the right question at the right time. Your

question brings home to us another point that is mentioned in our

smritis. You know there are four goals of life. These are

called `purushArthas' in Sanskrit. They are dharma, artha, kAma and

mokSha. – meaning broadly, Duty of Righteousness, material

prosperity, satisfaction of sensual desires and release from the

samsAra bondage. Of these, the smritis would say, only artha and

kAma are obtained as per one's prArabdha karma. The other two,

dharma and mokSha are obtained only by self-effort. That is

why `satyam vada' and `dharmam chara' are specific injunctions to

us. Self effort is the most essential ingredient for lifting

ourselves upward in the ladder of spiritual evolution.

 

 

DDW: If the upward path to higher levels of spirituality has to be

chalked out only by our effort then where comes the question of

divine will? You are confusing me now.

 

........

 

The full dialogue may be seen at

http://www.geocities.com/profvk/HNG/FWDW.html

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>

> Namaste, all

>

> Shastra says my current birth is as a result of my Prarabdha and

that Prarabdha plays a vital role in my current life journey. I am

also told that I have "Purushartha" by which I can improve my

lot.

Considering the operation of Prarabdha, how much freedom do I have

in going for Purushartha? Is my going for Purushartha also

guided/decided/dictated by the operation of Prarabdha? If not, how

much freedom I do have in using my free will in the context of

Purushartha. If my Prarabdha decides everything, even my pursing

Purushartha, where do I stand?

>

 

Namaste!

 

IMHO, this question is irrelevant. If I have a choice, I can

exercise that choice. Whether this itself is owing to my prArabdha

or it is an exercise of purushArtha is not material, is it?

 

For a detailed discussion on this, see Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati

Swami's dialogue at (you may have to cut and paste the entire url):

 

http://www.advaita-

vedanta.org/articles/The_Riddle_of_Fate_and_Free.htm

 

Also see:

 

http://avgsatsang.org/hhsvs/pdf/More_on_freewill_versus_destiny.pdf

 

 

Satsang with Sri Swami Viditatmananda Saraswati

Arsha Vidya Gurukulam

More on Freewill versus Destiny

Question

When I use my free will and perform an action, am I not still acting

under the influence of destiny?

Answer

This is a question that is asked often. What is freewill and what is

destiny? Is an action performed out of free will or does destiny

make me

perform the action in a particular way? We cannot really declare

what the

extent of free will is and what the extent of destiny is. Both are

present in our

lives. We have to accept the many things that we cannot control as

being

destiny. On the other hand, there are a few things we can control

and our

freewill comes into play when we do control them in a given

situation. There

is thus some freewill and some destiny in every action. However, it

is

difficult to determine the extent of destiny and freewill in our

actions.

When I act out of an impulse, I don't use my free will. For

example,

if I

act out of anger, jealousy, or any one of these reactions, it is my

impulse and

not my freewill that determines what I do. We have the freedom to

use our

freewill if we choose to, and perform an action in keeping with

dharma. In

fact, each one of us knows what the right thing to do in most

situations is.

Even when I am about to hurt someone, something within tells me that

it is a

wrong action, for the simple reason that I myself do not want to be

hurt.

There is an inner voice that tells me that my action is wrong. I

have the

freedom to listen to that voice and act accordingly. This is the use

of freewill.

I am conscious of what is right and what is wrong and I have the

freedom to

do what is right. Sometimes we submit to our impulses, which are the

result

of our past actions. We do not exercise our freewill then and, thus,

do not

benefit from having freewill.

Question

What about the statement that Duryodhana is driven to do a wrong

action even when he knows it to be wrong?

Answer

There is no freewill there. Duryodhana loses the capacity to perform

an action out of freewill. An action that is performed in accordance

with

dharma is an action born of freewill. An action that is prompted by

adharma

is an abuse of freewill or the result of an impulse. Duryodhana says

that there

www.AVGsatsang.org 2

are impulses that control him so he does not have the freewill to do

what is

right and he does not have the will power to desist from what is

wrong.

However, there are occasions when Duryodhana is a kind person; it is

not that every action he performs is an evil action. When he acts in

a kind

manner, he acts out of free will.

******

 

 

Harih Om.

Neelakantan

[Guest guest]

In simple terms - as Swami Chinmayanandaji used to say: What I have is

prarabda and what I do with what I have is purushaartha. The future

prarabda is past prarabda modified by my present action. I may be

prisioner of my past but I am also master of my future.

 

Until of course the concept past and future dissolves in the dissolution

of time where my presence alone matters with the eternal present.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

namo nArAyaNAya !

 

dear SrI maNi and list members,

 

as far as my understanding goes, all events happening

(including our actions) are predetermined. the feeling

that we have a free will is actually our mind's

response to the ever-free Atma svarUpam present behind

it. actions exist only in the realm of mAyA. an action

causes a vikAra within mAyA. it is only due to the

wrong identification of our svarUpam with the

body,mind and intellect that we think that we perform

actions.

 

given this i.e. although theoretically there is no

free will, from a practical viewpoint, we definitely

have some notion of free will, though what this notion

is is not clear to us. What is to be done with this is

to root out the "i am the doer" idea and merely remain

a witness to whatever happens.

 

as far as attaining moksha is concerned, it is

sufficient to note that moksha or Atma j~nAna cannot

be obtained by any amount of work/sAdhanA whatsoever.

it can be attained only when the Atman reveals itself.

this is not under our control. all that can be done by

human effort is to make the mind one pointed or to

constantly look for the source from which thoughts

arise. we then have to patiently wait for the AtmA to

reveal itself (the process can be accelerated by guru

kR^ipA).

 

vAsudevaH sarvaM,

aparyAptAmR^itaH.

 

Amuthan Arunkumar R,

4th year, B.Tech/M.Tech Dual Degree,

Department of Aerospace Engineering,

Indian Institute of Technology Madras.

 

 

 

________

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[Guest guest]

Dear friends:

 

This my take on the subject matter

 

If we were supposed to be contented and dependent on praarabdha then

our ancestors would not have developed the concept of "yaj~na"

and "yoga", which were the processing tools for further purification

that encompassed everything including you yourself. That why

purhSha suukta stresses the importance of sarvahuta yaj~n, where

everything including yourself is also oblated.

 

Neither would vedavyasa said, "There is nothing more significantly

higher than humans beings."

 

guhyaM brahma tadidaM braviimi |

na hi maanuShaacchhreShThataraM hi ki~ncat || ma. bhaa. shaanti

parva 299 . 20||

 

He further recommends what is known as the paaNiivaada.

 

aho siddhaartata teShaaM yeShaaM santiiha paaNayaH ||

atiiva spR^ihaye teShaaM yeShaaM santiiha paaNayaH ||

paaNimad{}bhyaH spR^ihaasmaakaM yathaa tava dhanasya vai ||

na paaNilaabhaadadhiko laabhaH kashcana vidyate || ma. bhaa. shaanti

parva 180.11.12 ||

 

Meaning - (Indra says) One who has hands can do any thing. They are

the sidhaartha. I like the folks who have hands. Just like you

yearn for "money", I desire for "hands". Getting hands the highest

benefit (laabha).

 

IMO - Here hand is to be interpreted as ability, dexterity, self

reliance and sharpening and then teaching those tools to others is

what I regard as the purushaartha.

 

Self reliance is also stressed in R^igveda -

 

ayaM me hasto bhagavaa nayaM me bhagavattaraH |

ayaM me vishvabheShajo.ayaM sivaabhimarshanaH || R^i. 10.60.12 ||

 

Meaning – My hand is the indeed very fortunate because by it

encompasses all the medicines of the world. Everything is obtained

through its touch.

 

However, if one just depends on the "praarabdha" and does not

exercise his "purushaartha" then the individual wallows in the mud

of ignorance. But a realized one plants a lotus seed of abhyudaya

for be benefit of all. Why lotus you may aks? Because nothing

sticks to it. It is nature's "TEFLON" - a perfect non-stick

material for non-attachment simulations.

 

Just me 1 & 1\4 Cents.

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

[Guest guest]

Namaste all.

 

The harrowing conundrum of fate and freewill was rather exhaustively

discussed here during March/April 2003 upon a debate initiated by our

Dennisji.

 

This is just to embellish what I mentioned in that context.

 

The question to be answered is: Is freewill the same as sense of

agency? I think the two are very close. If so, then ironically most

of our teachers seem to advocate relinquishing sense of agency while

accepting freewill.

 

I may be countered here. Yet, I am for a more practicable approach.

I would rather that there is only destiny. That one feels there is

freewill is part of destiny. To take the case of our Duryodhana –

given his background, he probably cogitated over the righteousness of

a battle with his own cousins and reached the conclusion that it was

not right to fight them. But, he succumbed to his impulses. Another

person in his shoes would have acted differently and sought peace.

How can we call that freewill?

 

Personally, despite my constant dabbling in advaita, I find that I

still have many failings, which I should have overcome long ago with

the so-called freewill. But, my attempts in that direction have been

rather half-hearted. Strangely, I find that there are many around

me, who do not know even the ABC of Vedanta, but yet many rungs ahead

of me on the ladder of values and virtues, which are meant to bestow

the necessary chittashuddhi for Self-Realization – the last of our

purushArthAs. I can pray to the Almighty to render my attempts full-

hearted and continue my efforts. That may seem like freewill. But,

I would like to see it as destiny, as the acknowledgement of an

Almighty and the attempts at supplicating Him are a part of my

destiny. There are many around who lack a similar inclination. That

is their destiny. If I am, therefore, to triumph over my failings

tomorrow, I would call that destiny. I would certainly not label it

freewill. If I do, that would not be befitting the vedantin in me as

I would be owning up agency for my actions.

 

Sankara said: kartum sakyam, akartum sakyam, anyatAva kartum sakyam

(can do, need not do, can do differently). Perhaps, he emphasized

this tripartite possibility as seeming options for those who are

miserably immersed in the transactional. These options lose their

individual validity vis a vis Consciousness, which unfolds all the

situations we live and act in. That we feel we have a freewill is a

part of that delusional drama. Tracking it back to Consciousness is

acknowledgement of destiny. There is only destiny – the vast blue

sky against which the dissipating cloud of freewill is just suspected

like a mirage. That we have purushArthAs, that some of us know them,

while others do not, and that some of the knowers wholeheartedly

work to fulfill them while others are less enthusiastic – all these

are destiny.

 

In Maniji's guru's analogy of a cow tied to a pole, the length of the

rope is a given over which the cow has no choice. How can it boast

of freewill while operating in the bondange of that very dictating

parameter? We are all cows. Cows are interested in grazing only.

Most of us cows are interested only in the first three pursharthAs.

However, there are some whose eyes are set on the fourth. They work

towards getting rid of their bondage. Well, that is then their

destiny. That we know we have the option to realize the fourth and

the required verve for it is a supreme benediction bestowed on us

by destiny.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair"

<madathilnair> wrote:

> Namaste all.

> Is freewill the same as sense of

> agency? I think the two are very close. If so, then ironically

most

> of our teachers seem to advocate relinquishing sense of agency

while

> accepting freewill.

>

> Strangely, I find that there are many around

> me, who do not know even the ABC of Vedanta, but yet many rungs

ahead

> of me on the ladder of values and virtues, which are meant to

bestow

> the necessary chittashuddhi for Self-Realization – the last of our

> purushArthAs. I can pray to the Almighty to render my attempts

full-

> hearted and continue my efforts. That may seem like freewill.

But,

> I would like to see it as destiny, as the acknowledgement of an

> Almighty and the attempts at supplicating Him are a part of my

> destiny. There is only destiny – the vast blue

> sky against which the dissipating cloud of freewill is just

suspected

> like a mirage. That we have purushArthAs, that some of us know

them,

> while others do not, and that some of the knowers wholeheartedly

> work to fulfill them while others are less enthusiastic – all

these

> are destiny.

>

 

Namaste, Nair-ji

 

I missed you all these days.Welcome back.

 

Yes, the fact that you accept everything is destiny shows you are

several rungs of the ladder above the 'others'! To accept destiny's

role to that extent is to surrender one's 'freewill' totally to

Him. I have heard Ram Kinkarji saying about Lakshmana that when

Rama asked him to build a ParnashAla at a 'suitable' place Lakshmana

replied saying that 'the suitability involves a decision making and

that is to be left only to the Lord; he can only carry out the

orders of the Lord'.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

Namaste, Mani-ji my personal experience has been that sankalpa are

futile. I have repeatedly failed to follow my sankalpa and then one

day it was spontaneous or effortless. I call it grace of God, others

may differ. Yes, my statements are dualistic.

 

regards,

Shailendra

[Guest guest]

Namaste Shailendra-Ji:

 

This bring us back to the significance why shaastra may have been

introduced.

 

Failing is not the problem not attempting the "saadhanaa" whether is

vavahaarikaa or paramaarthikaa level is extremely important.

 

There is a famous shloka associated with sa~Nkalpa -

 

sa~N{}kalpya ca thathaa kuryaat snaanadaanavrataadikam |

anyathaa puNyakarmaaNi niShphalaani bhavanti ca ||

 

Meaning (Liberal) - (sa~N{}kalpa - Without the statement of the

purpose of this act or procedure) especially during bathing, during

the process of donation (daana) and various ritualistic processes

(vrata) one does not get the benefit of the expected karmaphalaa.

Therefore, it is important to state the sa~N{}kalpa at the beginning

of such activity.

 

All this is trying to direct our attention is to focus on

the "Target". Just imagine if one does not have a target one will

never be able to hit it?

 

Precisely for this reason I would like to quote two mantraa's from

mu.ndakopaniShada.

 

dhanurgR^ihitvaupaniShadad.m mahaastra.m shara.m hyupaasaanishita.m

sa.ndhayiita |

aayamua tadbhaavagatena cetasaa, laxya.m tadevaaxara.m saumya viddhi ||

praNave dhanuH sharo hyatmaa brahma tallaxyamucyate |

apramattena veddhavya.m sharavattanamayo bhaveta ||

 

Meaning (Liberal overall) - praNava is dhanuaShya, aatmaa is the arrow

and brahma is the target. Carefully usderstand the knowledge from

uapaniShdaas on need to become one with the target.

 

One can apply this formulae at every possible situation. That is

svaadhyaaya.

 

So ultimately it is not God's Grace it to awaken the God within and

that is the grace. Often teacher's help us realize this aspect and

keep us on tract.

 

Best wishes for all saadhakaa's who are trying to trade on this path

of progress. The ultimate goal is the realize the advaita from these

dvaita uapaasanaa. This come our in the profound words of Saint

tukaaraam, who practiced and focused on upaasanaa for masses with

advaitic core principles.

 

kelaa maatiicaa pashupati . pari maatiisa kaaya maha.ntii .

shivapuujaa shivaasii pave . maatii maatiimaajii samaave .

kelaa paaSaaNaacaa viSNu . pari paaSaaNa navhe viSNu .

viSNupuujaa viSNuusii arpe . paaSaaNa raaho paaSaaNaruupe .

jyaacii puujaa teNe.nci gheNe.n . Amhaa.n paaSaaNaruupa raahaNe ..

127 ..

 

Post is already too long for my liking, therefore I will stope here.

 

Regards and best wishes for all the saadhakaa's,

 

Dr. Yadu

 

 

advaitin, "bhatnagar_shailendra"

<bhatnagar_shailendra> wrote:

> Namaste, Mani-ji my personal experience has been that sankalpa are

> futile. I have repeatedly failed to follow my sankalpa and then one

> day it was spontaneous or effortless. I call it grace of God, others

> may differ. Yes, my statements are dualistic.

>

> regards,

> Shailendra

[Guest guest]

namo nArAyaNAya !

 

dear SrI yadu,

 

--- ymoharir <ymoharir wrote:

>kelaa maatiicaa pashupati . pari maatiisa kaaya

>maha.ntii .

>shivapuujaa shivaasii pave . maatii maatiimaajii

>samaave .

>kelaa paaSaaNaacaa viSNu . pari paaSaaNa navhe viSNu

..

>viSNupuujaa viSNuusii arpe . paaSaaNa raaho

>paaSaaNaruupe .

>jyaacii puujaa teNe.nci gheNe.n . Amhaa.n

>paaSaaNaruupa raahaNe ..

>127 ..

 

can you please provide the english translation for the

above song (quoted from ur previous mail) of sant

tukArAma?

 

vAsudevaH sarvaM,

aparyAptAmR^itaH.

 

Amuthan Arunkumar R,

Final year, B.Tech/M.Tech Dual Degree,

Department of Aerospace Engineering,

Indian Institute of Technology Madras.

 

 

 

 

 

 

________

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, Amuthan Arunkumar R <aparyap>

wrote:

>>

> --- ymoharir <ymoharir> wrote:

>

> >kelaa maatiicaa pashupati . pari maatiisa kaaya

> >maha.ntii .

> >shivapuujaa shivaasii pave . maatii maatiimaajii

> >samaave .

> >kelaa paaSaaNaacaa viSNu . pari paaSaaNa navhe viSNu

> .

> >viSNupuujaa viSNuusii arpe . paaSaaNa raaho

> >paaSaaNaruupe .

> >jyaacii puujaa teNe.nci gheNe.n . Amhaa.n

> >paaSaaNaruupa raahaNe ..

> >127 ..

>

>>

> vAsudevaH sarvaM,

> aparyAptAmR^itaH.

>

> Amuthan Arunkumar R,

>

 

Meaning – One makes a parthiiva shiva linga for worshipping but it

reaches lord shiva. At the end of the parthiiva shiva pujana,

linga's visarjana is also practiced. Then material remains as dirt

and no one call it shiva. Similarly when one worships a stone in

the name of lord viShNu. That puujaa reaches viShnu and not the

stone. The stone remains as the stone and no one call the stone

viShNu. Who soever is worshipped in whatever form gets/derives

respective worship. As the medium remains only the vehicle thus

become that.

 

On another occasion he describes his views about the cycle of re-

birth that even applies to Gods as well.

 

devaasii avataara bhaktaa.nsii sa.nsaara . dooho.ncaa vicaara

ekapaNe.n .

bhaktaa.nsi sohaLe devaaciyaa a.nge . deva bhaktaa.n sa.nge sukha

bhogii .

deve.n bhaktaa.n ruupa dilaase Akaara . bhaktii.n tyaacaa paara

vaakhaaNilaa .

ekaa a.ngii.n donhii jaalii.n hii.n nirmaaNa . devabhaktapaNa

svaamiisevaa .

tukaa mhaNe yethe.n naahii.n bhinnabhaava . bhakta toci deva

devabhakta .. 3324 ..

 

Meaning – Gods take birth as an avataara and devotee has to take

births and re-birth for their salvation. Both the activities are

for a similar cause. As devotee desire for God, so does God desire

for his bhakta and that is what makes them (each other) happy. Gods

have given the human form to the devotee which enables them to sing

the praise of Gods. Both of these entities (bhakta and bhagavaana)

are part of the same (compare this is where giitaa expresses this

concept as "avibhaktam vibhakteshu"). Tukaaraama says there is no

bhedabhaava because it is all one. One who is a bhakta is a God and

God is also in the fom of a bhakta.

 

If there is no bhatka, then there would be no reason to have that

separate identity of a deity. Thus Saint tukaaraama practiced and

preached advaitapar devotion for the benefit of common folks.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Yadu