Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 advaitin, Hersh Bhasin <hersh_b> wrote: So where is the possibility of escape from the fruit. The following solutions to the disapperance of reations come to my mind. > > 1) It can be contended that the result of renouncing all fruits is increase of sattva in the man - i.e. the fruit of such dedication is obtaining "sattva", right knowledge , which shows man the correct path. But in the Gita Chapter 14 ver 6 it states that "Those situated in that mode become conditioned by a sense of happiness and knowledge" i.e. sattva also binds albeit to happiness. > > 2) It can be said that different laws operate in the spiritual sphere and an action need not be followed by reaction or that reactions get burnt up in such a case. Then this becomes a question of faith as in the normal day to day life we see actions followed by reactions. If it is just a matter of faith or shraddah, we need not try to understand the Gita but just accept at face value the words of the wise. If we do away with our mind, which of the acharays do we take to be true. Shankra, Ramunaja and in recent times Tilak, Gandhi, Swami Chinmayananda and Prabhupad all paint different pictures. > > 4) So Shankras interperation that ALL works need to be given up makes sense as if there is no action, there will be no reaction. > > 5) However the Lord brings us back to the starting point with the statement in Chapter 6 Ver 1: > " He who performs an action which is his duty, without depending on the result of action, he is a monk and a yogi; (but) not (so in) he who does not keep a fire and is actionless." > Thus I am going in a circular loop with this stream of thoughts and would appreciate assistance in my understanding. Namaste Hersh-ji and all. You have touched a live wire! This is itself going to lead you into the heart of the Gita. The heart of the Gita, as far as I understand it as an advaitin, is "Actionlessness". You have yourself quoted the word "actionless" above. But this "actionless" (tr. of *akriyaH* from 6-1) and the technical word "actionlessness" (Tr. of *naishkarmya* from 18-49) are different. And that difference is what is crucial. I shall try to explain a little. But one may have to go through the entire Gita if one wants to understand it better and better and absorb the Gita (in terms of practice) many more times if one wants to 'experience' or 'implement' or 'be in the state of' "Actionlessness". (Note: You can see I am fumbling for words here, because it is so difficult to really communicate the concept of Actionlessness). All actions are done by the body mind and intellect. (5-11). The Jnanis do action for all outward purposes (This is action) but really they do not do anything at all (This is actionlessness). Only he who identifies himself with BMI is doing the 'action'. But he who does not so identify is 'actionless' . The most surprising expression of this is in 18 - 17. So when you do actions with the attitude of actionlessness, the fruits, however great they may be, whether positive or negative, will, though they accrue to the BMI, will not accrue to the one who stands aloof from the BMI. Here Shankara's interpretation is followed by Chinmayananda. Prabhupada and Ramanuja emphasize the dedication to God rather than the *actionlessness* concept. Tilak and Gandhi interpret *actionlessness* as action without any self-interest. Aurobindo puts all of these into that word *actionlessness*. I have tried to say too much in too short a way. But I shall leave it there -- so that elaborations can be done when needed. PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 29, 2005 Report Share Posted September 29, 2005 Namaste Regarding my previous post, I want to give reference to three of my earlier posts on the same subject. Here they are: Message #21022 of 20 Feb. 2004 Message #21052 of 23 Feb. 2004 Message #26712 of 17 May, 2005. PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Namasta Ram Chandranji and Professor VKji First of all let me thank you for your reasoned and extremely scholarly responses. There is a lot of information that you have provided and needless to say it will take me a long time to assimilate and digest it. Your posts provides a map by which one can study the Gita and I thank you for it. Please do not interpret my questions as argumentative or debative. They are not meant to be that.I am asking questions with the attitude of a lost person seeking directions. Ram Chanderji has asked me to limit myself to one question. My question is the applicability of "actionlessness" *naishkarmya* from 18-49 in our current unenlightened condition. 1) ProfVK has pointed out that this(18.49) is the core teaching of the Gita. 2) a)Swami Gambhirnanda in his translation describes naiskarmya-siddhim as " perfection consisting in the state of one free from duties. One is said to be free from duties from whom duties have departed as a result of realizing that the actionless Brahman is his Self". b) Vivekananda describes the Absolute in one of his lectures. He took the example of motion. Motion of one body is always in relation to another body (Theory of Relativity of Einstein). Only the Brahman, which is the sum total of everything (the ONE) can be said to not move. For if everything is in that ONE, what does it move in relation to?. We have to arrive at such a realization c)Katha Upanishad II-v-II describes realization by taking the example of the Sun, which does not get either blessed or condemned by the various scenes that it illumines. Such is the Atma of a realized person. 3) Hence one has to be situated in Brahman Realization before he makes use of the 18.49 teaching. Such a person is one in a million according to the Lord. It may take us many life times to get there. 4) Now if a deluded (unrealized) person comes across this verse and appropriating it to himself says that verse 18 - 17 is also applicable to him i.e. "He who has not the feeling of egoism, whose intellect is not tainted, he does not kill, nor does he become bound-even by killing these creatures! ", will he not be a hypocrite. As Shankra says in Bhaj Govindam (ver 14) " Jatilo Mundi Luncitakesah...". 5) As an example of the dangers of improper digestion of noble teachings, In Japan from the late 1800's through World War II, prominent Zen leaders perverted the Buddhist teaching to encourage blind obedience, mindless killing, and total devotion to the emperor. Two eye opening books are: - Zen at War : Brian Victoria - The Rape of Nanking: The Forgotten Holocaust of World War II by Iris Chang - Also refer to this web site: http://www.mandala.hr/5/baran.html Victoria identifies Sawaki Kodo (1880-1965), one of the great Soto Zen patriarchs of this century, as an evangelical war proponent. Serving in Russia as a soldier, he happily related how he and his comrades had "gorged ourselves on killing people." Later, in 1942, he wrote, "It is just to punish those who disturb the public order. Whether one kills or does not kill, the precept (Dharma) forbidding killing [is preserved]. It is the precept (Dharma) forbidding killing that wields the sword. It is the precept (Dharma) that throws the bomb." It appears to me that it is highly unlikely that I can arrive at the realized state in this lifetime so I guess I will continue in Karam Yoga as described by Ram Chander Ji : "The best medicine for mind purification is "karma yoga" and continued Sadhana of karma yoga will enable one complete mind purification and attain jnana." If by happy accident I achieve the "paramarthika level of reality" - all the better. With regards Hersh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 advaitin, Hersh Bhasin <hersh_b> wrote: > Namasta Ram Chandranji and Professor VKji > > It appears to me that it is highly unlikely that I can arrive at the realized state in this lifetime so I guess I will continue in Karam Yoga as described by Ram Chander Ji : > "The best medicine for mind purification is "karma yoga" and continued Sadhana of karma yoga will enable one complete mind purification and attain jnana." If by happy accident I achieve the "paramarthika level of reality" - all the better. > > Namaste Hersh-ji Your points leading to the above conclusion of yours are well-taken. Yes, karma-yoga and bhakti-yoga are our means to attain purification of mind and capability of one-pointedness. When both of these are perfected we will be automatically ready to pursue jnAna yoga. But there is no meter or machine to measure our perfection. The only way is to check ourselves internally to see whether our anger and passions have subsided. Instead of concentrating on this self- assessment work which itself will set up a chain-involvement in further desires (to improve) and expectations (of achievement), we should rather concentrate on the proper performance of karma yoga and dedicated discharge of obligations through bhakti yoga. These two will take us very far. In the meantime we have to keep learning about the Atman and the ramifications of Prakriti which delude us. Now the Masters say to us: "Then, in due course, your activities will slip off from you by themselves, just as the banana held in the hand of a weeping child slips off from his hand when he goes to sleep" (*nidrALuvat bAlavat*). Thus actionlessness will become an automatic spin-off and not a strained self-enforcement. Thanks for pursuing the topic so earnestly. Keep reading the Mahaswamigal's discourses, yet to be posted. They contain a lot more material. We are only at the tip of the iceberg now! PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Namaste Sri Hersh: Thanks for your kind remarks. Only when the mind is totally PURE, one will be able to recognize that he/she is a non-doer. Honestly, pure karma yoga is possible only when the mind is pure! Strictly, "actionlessness" is applicable and recognizable with a pure mind! This may explain why Gita prescribes "karma yoga" for mind purification and it has be done with a single-pointed devotion to all fellow beings (equivalent to Isvara or God). In other words, Bhakti (Devotion) is implanted within karma yoga (see 2.47, karma yoga). When the mind is impure, we tend to ask questions (questinable mind) regarding the validity/impossibility of performing karma yoga as a sadhana. Since the scripture (Gita) says so, it should be taken as an injunction and perform karma yoga without questions to pave the way for mind purification. At times, we could recognize 'actionlessness' when our action is spontaneous - like saving a drowning child in the river or a swimming pool. In the real world, there are numerous examples where people act heroically and voluntarily without looking for rewards. In those occasions, they become 'actionless' and everyone surrounding such actions become 'motionless' witnessing such divine inteventions. Everyone of us would have had a moment or two in some part of our lives. In the nature, we can see the 'actionlessness' through the blooming flowers and that may explain why we feel the presence of Divine in the presence of flowers and fruits. Those living beings without the mind are enlightened and they exhibit 'actionlessness' and the mind became the barrier for us to understand and appreciate the spiritual injunction of 'karma yoga.' Our true divine nature is hidden within and we do need to dig deeply inside (anthakarana suddhi) to regain it! regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, Hersh Bhasin <hersh_b> wrote: > Namasta Ram Chandranji and Professor VKji > > First of all let me thank you for your reasoned and extremely scholarly responses. ..... > My question is the applicability of "actionlessness" *naishkarmya* from 18-49 in our current unenlightened condition. > > 1) ProfVK has pointed out that this(18.49) is the core teaching of the Gita. > > 2) a)Swami Gambhirnanda in his translation describes naiskarmya- siddhim as " perfection consisting in the state of one free from duties. One is said to be free from duties from whom duties have departed as a result of realizing that the actionless Brahman is his Self". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Namaste Ram Chandranji, I'm a new member of this mailing list. I had a question about your response. Ram Chandranji: Those living beings without the mind are enlightened and they exhibit 'actionlessness' and the mind became the barrier for us to understand and appreciate the spiritual injunction of 'karma yoga.' Our true divine nature is hidden within and we do need to dig deeply inside (anthakarana suddhi) to regain it! Shyam: Are you suggesting here that one has to transcend the body-mind complex, get free of the pancha kosha sheaths to realise the Self? Please clarify. pranams to all, best regards, Shyam for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 30, 2005 Report Share Posted September 30, 2005 Namaste Sri Shyam: I am not trying make any assertion about 'enlightenment' and the example is just an illustration. We can't use language or example to explain any metaphysical assertions such as 'enlightenment.' Your question only confirms the difficulty of understanding 'Self- realization' in simpleton language of expression. We can have a mind without 'agitation' (Lord Krishna asserts Perfect Yogi is the one with the stable mind in chapter 2 - stithaprajna). When we get rid of all the 'notions' we get awakened! It is just like the 'tiger' that appears during the dream becomes responsible for us to wake up - both the dream and the tiger both disappear when we are awakened! I hope this clarifies your question, regards, Ram Chandran advaitin, Shyamsundar Venkataraman <sundar_venkat007> wrote: > Namaste Ram Chandranji, > > Ram Chandranji: > Those living beings > without the mind are enlightened and they exhibit 'actionlessness' > and the mind became the barrier for us to understand and appreciate > the spiritual injunction of 'karma yoga.' Our true divine nature is > hidden within and we do need to dig deeply inside (anthakarana > suddhi) to regain it! > Shyam: > > Are you suggesting here that one has to transcend the body-mind complex, get free of the pancha kosha sheaths to realise the Self? Please clarify. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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