deep sleep

[Guest guest]

OM TAT SAT

 

Dear friends, I have heard and read the deep sleep argument many times which

roughly says that time, space and mind disappear in deep sleep and this state of

total avidya gives the jeev a chance to taste bliss. Honestly speaking, it does

not sound convincing to me but I must also admit I have'nt read Shankar's

commentary on Mandukya upanishad. What is the crux of the argument about the

mithya nature of the world. If I close my eyes, does it mean the world ceases to

exist just as not knowing Brahman does not mean there is no Brahman. Perhaps,

the learned members can point me to some specific commentary or portion of the

scriptures. I also need to read Sri Naik's 'real and unreal' series in which I

believe he says that the world and Ishwara are real. I don't wish to start

another debate though.

 

OM TAT SAT

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I have heard and read the deep sleep argument many times which roughly says

that time, space and mind disappear in deep sleep and this state of total

avidya gives the jeev a chance to taste bliss. Honestly speaking, it does

not sound convincing to me but I must also admit I have'nt read Shankar's

commentary on Mandukya upanishad. What is the crux of the argument about

the mithya nature of the world.

 

praNAms

Hare krishna

 

We do analyse all these three states from two different view points...one

is vyAvahArika drushti & another one is vaidika or shAstra drushti. When

we analyse deep sleep state (sushupti) from transactional reality, being

highly entangled in waking state's reality we say like dream state, deep

sleep state also a mAyic aspect & we regard it as a passing cloud of

ignorance in our day to day experience.

 

But, when the same state has been analysed from the shAstra drushti or from

the position of witness (sAkshi) of these three states, this much neglected

state of deep sleep state brings new dimension to the vEdAntic ultimate

reality of our non-dual nature. This state to be seen as an intuition of

our true nature without the dirt of individuality and its personality like

waker or dreamer and their respective experience of duality in waking &

dreaming states. In this deep sleep state we donot have the limitation of

neither waking nor dream, we are indeed elevated to our own non-dual nature

which is complete with bliss unconditioned by the time & space frames.

shankara in bruhadAraNyaka shruti bhAshya uses this deep sleep state as

*drushtAnta* to prove our non-dual nature.

 

Without knowing the subtle difference between these two different view

points, modern day advaitins declaring there is a mUlAvidya (kAraNAvidyA)

in the deep sleep state which is covering the nature of our true self....

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

In this deep sleep state we donot have the

> limitation of

> neither waking nor dream, we are indeed elevated to our own non-dual

> nature

> which is complete with bliss unconditioned by the time & space frames.

> shankara in bruhadAraNyaka shruti bhAshya uses this deep sleep state

> as

> *drushtAnta* to prove our non-dual nature.

>

> Without knowing the subtle difference between these two different view

> points, modern day advaitins declaring there is a mUlAvidya

> (kAraNAvidyA)

> in the deep sleep state which is covering the nature of our true

> self....

 

Much to the disappointment of dvaitins, any reality to duality causes a

problem since one limits the other and any limitation cause fear and

associated suffering. Udaramantaram kurute athathasya bhayam bhavati –

a spec of difference causes fear - Absence of duality in deep sleep

state is the bliss part of it as anandamaya kosha as absence of

suffering.

As Bhaskarji pointed out, Vedanta and Shankara utilize nature ready-made

example to illustrate one's identity with non-dual nature.

 

However, ignorance continues to this state as well. Hence, an ignorant

man will remain as ignorant even in the deep sleep state even though he

is experiencing the non-duality.

 

Hence, nature provides another lesson for us - it is not the experience

of non-duality that is lacking but understanding of the non-duality, (it

is understanding that one is non-dual in spite of experience of duality

or non-duality). A realized person will remain realized in all three

states. yad gatvaa na nivartante tad dhaama paramam mama - one the

knowledge that one is non-dual in spite of duality that knowledge never

leaves. muula avidya is there in all three states - in the deep sleep

states muula avidya remains without the associated projection of the

world since that projection is done with the mind or by the mind, which

is not present in its full glory in the deep sleep state. Here the

nature provides another lesson for us - without the mind, duality is

not perceived. Whether such duality is there just because on is not

perceiving becomes debatable issue (in the realm of the minds!) since

mind has to be there even to debate.

 

Finally, Nature provides another lasting lesion - it is not the duality

that is the problem and hence elimination of duality does not eliminate

the problem. It is the perceived reality to the duality is the problem.

That arises because of lack of appreciation of one’s non-dual nature

and nothing other than oneself is real. Vedanta philosophy stands tall

only because it takes total experience of the human being (waking, dream

and deep sleep states) into consideration for the analysis. It comes to

the conclusion that everything is nothing but Brahman which is non-dual

– It is non-duality in spite of duality; and that is ones own self –

since self is real and self is singular not plural – that understanding,

not as a thought, but as a fact is the true understanding of ones own

self.

 

From my understanding, the existence of the world remains as

indeterministic problem since a mind, which is enlivened by the

consciousness, has to be there to make it as deterministic problem. Its

absence in the deep sleep states, provides an eye opener for those who

can open – yah pasyati saH pasyati.

 

The rest is the theory.

 

 

Hari Om!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

Hon.Shri Kuntimaddi Sadananda,

 

I have noted that you, Shri Ramchandran and many others

write the words "Hari" prefixed to "Om".

 

Is there any specific reason or Shastra recommendations

for this?

 

Dilip Sahani

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Friend,

 

advaitin, Brahmarpanam Brahmhavih

<mahadevadvaita> wrote:

>

> Dear friends, I have heard and read the deep sleep argument

> many times which roughly says that time, space and mind

> disappear in deep sleep and this state of total avidya gives

> the jeev a chance to taste bliss. Honestly speaking, it does

> not sound convincing to me but I must also admit I have'nt

> read Shankar's commentary on Mandukya upanishad. What is

> the crux of the argument about the mithya nature of the

> world. If I close my eyes, does it mean the world ceases

> to exist just as not knowing Brahman does not mean there

> is no Brahman. Perhaps, the learned members can point me

> to some specific commentary or portion of the scriptures.

 

 

Many of us wish to see God, but is there anyone anywhere that hasn't

really seen God? Is there anything at all we see that is not God?

 

Everything that we see every moment of our lives is God, yet we do

not see Him!

 

When we see all this as God we are said to have 'realised' God, but

all this is God whether we realise it or not! Paradoxically, we see

Him always and yet do not see Him!

 

What is it that stands between our vision that sees all this as the

ungodly world and our vision that sees all this as God?

 

That unseeing eye with which we look at this world is deep sleep. It

is there in the waking state, it is there in the dream state, and it

is there in the deep sleep state. It is the deep sleep that

characterises the life of samsara. It is called the anadi bija nidra,

the deep sleep that lies beneath our waking states and dream states.

Sri Shankaracharya speaks about it in the Brahma Sutra Bhashya.

 

The waking state comprises the world of objects that we see around

us. When we are imagining in the waking state, it is the dream state

that underlies the waking state. The dream state always exists in the

waking state and it is the world of imagination that lies interleaved

with the objects of the waking state, and that is why when we are

lost in imagination we are said to be 'day-dreaming'. Again, so often

we do not see things in the waking state even when we are looking at

these things, and this sleep that veils our eyes to what we are

seeing even when we are awake is the deep sleep in our waking state.

And that is why when a person looks at something with unseeing eyes,

we ask him: "Are you asleep?" But the jiva is always asleep because

it is always looking at this world with the unseeing eyes of avidya.

The deep sleep state, the dream state, and the waking state are not

merely three chronologically alternate states, but three states that

are overlaid one on the other. Sri Shankaracharya speaks about it in

the bashya to the Mandukya Upanishad. The deep sleep state does not

go away even when we wake up. It persists through all our states -

the dreamless sleep state, the dreaming state, and the waking state -

and that is the deep sleep of samsara. That is avidya.

 

Sri Bhaskar Prabhuji is right, there is no such thing as mula-avidya

because there is no existing thing that may be called mula-avidya. It

is the absence of what is present, the sleep that makes absent to us

what lies before our very eyes. But if we must attach a name to this

unseeingness of our vision that is the root cause of all the twists

in phenomena like the rope appearing as the snake, then is there a

better name for it than 'root-ignorance' or 'mula-avidya'? Sri

Shankaracharya refers to it as the causal body in the Vivekachudamani

and in the bhashya to the Mandukya Upanishad. It is what pulls us

back from the non-duality in deep sleep to the duality of the waking

state because it is the latent notion of duality that is there even

in the deep sleep state. It is the notion of duality that has no

form – because it is the latency that is not possessed of form - and

it is therefore called the undifferentiated, avyakta.

 

> I also need to read Sri Naik's 'real and unreal' series

> in which I believe he says that the world and Ishwara are

> real. I don't wish to start another debate though.

 

The world and Ishwara are undoubtedly real. But I also hold that the

entire world is unreal. I do not deny a single line of the bhashya

which says that jagat is mithya. And I also do not deny a single line

of the bashya that says the effect is the Cause itself. Sri

Shankaracharya says both these things, and he says that the seeming

separation of the effect from the cause arises from speech. What is

the nature of speech from which this mystery arises? There is a

condition in this mystery whereby Advaita is seen as being the Truth

because these forms are seen to be subsumed in Reality, and there is

a condition in this mystery whereby Advaita is seen as being the

Truth because these forms that seemingly stand apart from Reality are

seen to be false. We may speak of them as two aspects of Advaita

based on two conditions of speech. Most speak of the latter while I

am more inclined to speak of the former. But each is valid as

according with the condition of speech on which it is premised. It is

the Grace of the Lord alone that calls each to his or her path.

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

However, ignorance continues to this state as well. Hence, an ignorant

man will remain as ignorant even in the deep sleep state even though he

is experiencing the non-duality.

 

praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Yes, we can say even in the deep sleep state we will be enmeshed in

ignorance...but this is only from the vyavahArik drushti where we believe

waking state also does have avidyA...but when we witness this state from

sAkshi view point, it is absolute non dual state without any trace of

duality. As you rightly pointed out prabhuji, there is no time when jIva

has not become one with brahman, for one's intrinsic nature cannot be

alienated. Only because of the seeming association with the limited

adjuncts (upAdhi-s) which vishwa & taizasa assumes in waking & dream states

we say both are avidyA and in deep sleep state he attains his own form on

the dissolution of those limited adjuncts. That is why shankara says in

sUtra bhAshya "jIva merged in pure being is not conscious because of

absolute unity"...jIva & his association with avidyA sakti holds water only

in vyAvahAric reality. avidyA is noway with bhAva rUpa (a positive entity)

at any point of time.

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

--- bhaskar.yr wrote:

> Yes, we can say even in the deep sleep state we will be enmeshed in

> ignorance...but this is only from the vyavahArik drushti where we

> believe

> waking state also does have avidyA...but when we witness this state

> from

> sAkshi view point, it is absolute non dual state without any trace of

> duality.

 

As I understand:

Bhaskar -we may be saying the samething using different words. If you

study your wording in the above sentences " when we witness this state

from a sAkshis point of view...". First, witness and witnessed both are

in duality and exit as two only in vyavahaarika level. If we analyze

deeper - the existence of any state, including deep sleep state, is also

only at vyavahaarika level. Next, how can 'we witness "this state" from

a Sakshi point of view". There is no 'we' to witness. What Shankara

means is that there is a disolution of duality and in the process the

witness and witnessed both merged into one homogeneous mass of silence

of oneness. Since there is no knowledge of that state, other than the

experience of that state, the ignorance remains. But remember one does

not know that one is ignorant in that state either - otherthan

experience of non-duality - samskaara of which is left in the

understanding that "I slept very well" -a statement made once one is out

of that state!

 

That is why shankara says

> in

> sUtra bhAshya "jIva merged in pure being is not conscious because of

> absolute unity"...

 

That is correct. To me Shankara's statement means the duality - witness

and the witnessed merged into one homogenous mass of existence- as

absolute unity - exiting all the time as one only. The projection of the

plurality within the existence is dissolved at the micro level - Similar

thing occurs when Brahma sleeps as Geeta Ch. 8 discusses as pralaya.

 

jIva & his association with avidyA sakti holds water

> only

> in vyAvahAric reality.

 

True - don't you think that vyavahaarika reality includes the deep sleep

state too! That which is beyong the three states is 'turiiyam'.

Everything else is within vyavahaara - at least that is my

understanding.

 

avidyA is noway with bhAva rUpa (a positive

> entity)

> at any point of time.

 

Yes - this is true all the time - A positive entity cannot be removed!

Even the concepts of bhaava and abhaava ruupa are within vyavyahaara

too. When we say ignorance is anaadi - it is beyond the conception of

the mind too which consists of bhaava-s. For that reason also avidya is

abhaava ruupa. It can only be removed by its opposite - knowledge - not

by any states.

 

'maayaa kalpita desha kaala kalanaa vaichitra chitree kritam ..'

 

'yat swapna jaagara sushupta mavaiti nityam

that brahma nishkala maham na cha bhuuta sanghaH'

 

says Shankara.

 

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dilipji I am honored by your address.

 

Hari OM! or HariH Om! is greetings that common in greeting sadhaks.

Popular how one greets others, particularly in Chinmaya Mission. May be

in other missions too.

 

We can give many meanings as one sees fit.

 

First we are address the other as Hari - the Lord Narayana himself in

different forms and shapes since He is every thing - inside and out side

- antar bahischa tat sarvam vyaapa naaraayana sthitaH.

 

Second HariH eva Om! - Om! is nothing but Brahman - Om ityekaaksharam

brahma says Gita. and Hari who is vishnu that pervades every thing is

nothing but Brahman.

 

The whole advaita is packed in that greeting.

 

Well that is the intension in greeting one another. We are familar with

Shree Ram or jai Ram. Jai Shree Krishna, or Jai Shreeman Naarayana etc

used while greeting one another.

 

It is the vision of seeing the Lord in everyone. A beautiful indeed -

you and me are one and the same by bring two hand into one as namaskaar.

 

 

HariH OM!

Sadananda

 

 

--- Dilip Sahani <dilsahani wrote:

> Hon.Shri Kuntimaddi Sadananda,

>

> I have noted that you, Shri Ramchandran and many others

> write the words "Hari" prefixed to "Om".

>

> Is there any specific reason or Shastra recommendations

> for this?

>

> Dilip Sahani

>

>

>

>

>

> Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thank you. Nice post Kuntimaddi Sadananda.

On 10/18/05, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote:

> However, ignorance continues to this state as well. Hence, an ignorant

> man will remain as ignorant even in the deep sleep state even though he

> is experiencing the non-duality.

 

Regarding this, if we are in the dual state we cant remember what happens

in deep sleep, is this related to the ignorance?

 

Hence, nature provides another lesson for us - it is not the experience

> of non-duality that is lacking but understanding of the non-duality, (it

> is understanding that one is non-dual in spite of experience of duality

> or non-duality).

 

Agreed. Now, what does memory has to do with this? I believe there most be

a connection. Let me tell you why. I was in a non dual state, I remained

"there" for four months in a row. The experience is continuous, you do not

experimentate unconsciousness in deep sleep. All the time THAT remains. Now

that I am "human" again I lost the hability to remain aware in deep sleep. I

asume I am, but as soon as I wake up I have no memories about being there.

> A realized person will remain realized in all three

> states.

 

Yes! Not to say I was realized, but I definitively reached advaita. Who is

this "I" who doubts? Oh, well...

 

Vedanta philosophy stands tall

> only because it takes total experience of the human being (waking, dream

> and deep sleep states) into consideration for the analysis. It comes to

> the conclusion that everything is nothing but Brahman which is non-dual

> – It is non-duality in spite of duality; and that is ones own self –

> since self is real and self is singular not plural – that understanding,

> not as a thought, but as a fact is the true understanding of ones own

> self.

 

Yes, knowledge as a real state and not as an idea. I have a question. How

come one can be in a non dual state and then "return" to a dual state? I

have stated this in this very list, in my case, I didnt wanted anymore to be

in the non dual state, an enormous fear was all that was left of my ego, but

was strong enough to make me return to the world of humans. Up to this day I

know what I was, what I am, but I still live in the dual state. Its

confusing to know something and, at the same time, to not know that

something!

 

Manuel Delaflor

 

_____

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt

the world to himself. Therefore, all progress

depends on the unreasonable man.

 

-George Bernard Shaw