Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Namaste Sri Dilip: Just like addressing you (similary you addressing me) with a 'Sri' preface, it is customory to address 'Om' with 'Hari' or 'Harih.' 'Om' represents the Parabrahman and 'Harih Om' is addressing the Parabrahman with great reverence. Many Vedanta missions such as the Chinmaya Mission, Arsha Vidhya Gurukulam, etc. generally use 'Harih Om' as a means of greetings and/or ending the conversation. While talking to someone in the telephone, we use quite often 'good bye' and 'Harih Om' is a good substitute in those occasions! Harih Om! Ram Chandran advaitin, Dilip Sahani <dilsahani> wrote: > > Hon.Shri Kuntimaddi Sadananda, > > I have noted that you, Shri Ramchandran and many others > write the words "Hari" prefixed to "Om". > > Is there any specific reason or Shastra recommendations > for this? > > Dilip Sahani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 >If I close my eyes, does it mean the world ceases to >exist in your question if you can clearly define what you mean by "I", "world", "cease", "exist" (in all their individual and inter-related dynamics) you'll find the answer yourself. >I also need to read Sri Naik's 'real and unreal' how do you define "real" and "unreal"? avidhya is mostly lack of clarity in our understanding of what we think we know (though we dont realize it). Start your day with - Make it your home page! http://www./r/hs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 --- Manuel Delaflor <delaflor wrote: > > Agreed. Now, what does memory has to do with this? I believe there > most be > a connection. Here is what I understand: The thoughts that are related to all objective experiences are stored in the memory bank, which is part of the antahkaraNa or inner instrument, which includes besides memory, mind, intellect, and ego. When the mind is absent, it is also recorded as the absence of the mind - like 18 and 1/2 minutes of Nixon missing tape. Deep sleep experience is absence of 'anything' or any duality, and is recorded as absence of the mind since mind involves a duality - thoughts and the thinker of the thoughts. Deep sleep state from the mind's point of view (waker's mind) is a recollection of its absence or recollection of non-dual experience That is what is involved in the statement by the mind when it says 'I slept well', since true I never sleeps! Let me tell you why. I was in a non dual state, I > remained > "there" for four months in a row. The experience is continuous, you do > not > experimentate unconsciousness in deep sleep. All the time THAT > remains. Now > that I am "human" again I lost the hability to remain aware in deep > sleep. I > asume I am, but as soon as I wake up I have no memories about being > there. Any experience of non-duality is transcending the mind - since mind involves thoughts or flow of thoughts - there is a tranquil zone where one is very sleepy but not slept very well - mind intermittently comes and goes where the continuity of sleep or continuity of waking is interrupted. Once one is in deep sleep state, it is uninterrupted continuous silence of the mind until the vasanaas push the mind back to activity. > Yes! Not to say I was realized, but I definitively reached advaita. > Who is > this "I" who doubts? Oh, well... Scripture says once one is realized there are no more doubts about that state. Bhagavan Ramana says - firm establishment in that state without any more perturbation is what he calls as realization. > Yes, knowledge as a real state and not as an idea. I have a question. > How > come one can be in a non dual state and then "return" to a dual state? you do not return to duality as before - You return with full understanding that you alone are real and everything is a play of the mind, by the mind, for the mind etc. It is like movie you see on the TV - you know it is not real but you can still enjoy as if it is real. Hence the life becomes a 'play' or Leela in Sanskrit. You can play if you want or turn the TV off and enjoy your mediation. Once realized there is no more notions that you are an object 'this or that - this includes this body this mind etc. You are beyond all this, this, this .. yet you are in all this, this, and this. > Its > confusing to know something and, at the same time, to not know that > something! That state is free from any fear or any suffering - it is your own natural state that one is longing to attain, since right now there is confusion of taking yourself that is not your self. That misunderstanding drops out and The you revel in yourself by yourself and that is what pure absolute happiness that one is longing far in all pursuits. Fear comes from the duality - that is what scripture says. In realization all the notional duality drops with an understanding that one is in everything and everything is in oneself. Sarvabhuutastam aatmaanam sarvabhuutaanica aatmani. It is the remnant vaasanaas that causes the confusion of the understanding of oneself. The best medicine is continue your pursuit either by contemplation or by bhakti - taking refuge at the feet of the Lord - then Lord alone remains - everything dissolves at His alter, including yourself. One Self alone remains. - yo mam pasyati sarvatra sarvan ca mayi pasyati - one who sees me everywhere and everything in me - he alone 'sees' the truth. Ultimately everything dissolves at the alter of love. One love oneslef the most - it is unconditional love. Hope this helps, Hari OM! Sadananda > > Manuel Delaflor > > _____ > The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; > the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt > the world to himself. Therefore, all progress > depends on the unreasonable man. > > -George Bernard Shaw > > > > > > > > > ------------------------ Sponsor > --------------------~--> > Click here to rescue a little child from a life of poverty. > http://us.click./rAWabB/gYnLAA/i1hLAA/XUWolB/TM > --~-> > > > Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity > of Atman and Brahman. > Advaitin List Archives available at: > http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ > To Post a message send an email to : advaitin > Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages > > > Links > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 First of all, thank you for your answer. On 10/18/05, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > > > Deep sleep experience is absence of > 'anything' or any duality, and is recorded as absence of the mind since > mind involves a duality - thoughts and the thinker of the thoughts. Deep > sleep state from the mind's point of view (waker's mind) is a > recollection of its absence or recollection of non-dual experience That > is what is involved in the statement by the mind when it says 'I slept > well', since true I never sleeps! So let me see if I understand. I believe "THAT" can adquire memory of the whole process, from being awake to being in deep sleep, without bein unconsciouss at any moment. Is this what you say to? > Any experience of non-duality is transcending the mind - since mind > involves thoughts or flow of thoughts - there is a tranquil zone where > one is very sleepy but not slept very well - mind intermittently comes > and goes where the continuity of sleep or continuity of waking is > interrupted. I request here too more explanation, if possible. If Im reading you right, you say that if there is mind there is no deep sleep? > > Scripture says once one is realized there are no more doubts about that > state. Bhagavan Ramana says - firm establishment in that state without > any more perturbation is what he calls as realization. Oh, believe me, I had ZERO doubts, there was no one who had doubts anymore, everything was so immediate, so real that even the possibility of a question was out of any proportion! Still, there was this fear about being nothing, about that everything I thought it was real was unreal, about that THAT is the only thing that exists, and it is not personal, it is nothing at all what we can think or imagine. > Yes, knowledge as a real state and not as an idea. I have a question. > > How > > come one can be in a non dual state and then "return" to a dual state? > > you do not return to duality as before - You return with full > understanding that you alone are real and everything is a play of the > mind, by the mind, for the mind etc. It is like movie you see on the TV > - you know it is not real but you can still enjoy as if it is real. Thats very true! And this is exactly what I wanted while I was "there", to return to the world of humans, to be a human among other humans. Hence the life becomes a 'play' or Leela in Sanskrit. You can play if > you want or turn the TV off and enjoy your mediation. Once realized > there is no more notions that you are an object 'this or that - this > includes this body this mind etc. You are beyond all this, this, this .. > yet you are in all this, this, and this. Yes, exactly! No more doubts about the nature of reality, nor about what we are and what we are doing here, nor any other intellectual notion. That state is free from any fear or any suffering - it is your own > natural state that one is longing to attain, since right now there is > confusion of taking yourself that is not your self. That > misunderstanding drops out and The you revel in yourself by yourself and > that is what pure absolute happiness that one is longing far in all > pursuits. This is exactly what my experience lacked. It didnt feel natural, but so completely different to what I was accustomed. Maybe something went wrong? Fear comes from the duality - that is what scripture says. In > realization all the notional duality drops with an understanding that > one is in everything and everything is in oneself. Sarvabhuutastam > aatmaanam sarvabhuutaanica aatmani. A Zen teacher told me once that fear was the last resource of my ego to keep itself alive. That it is normal for some individuals. This very understanding about one is everything was too powerful for me. The realization about everything is oneself just brought me fear about being absolutely alone! It is the remnant vaasanaas that causes the confusion of the > understanding of oneself. The best medicine is continue your pursuit > either by contemplation or by bhakti - taking refuge at the feet of the > Lord - then Lord alone remains - everything dissolves at His alter, > including yourself. One Self alone remains. - yo mam pasyati sarvatra > sarvan ca mayi pasyati - one who sees me everywhere and everything in me > - he alone 'sees' the truth. Ultimately everything dissolves at the > alter of love. One love oneslef the most - it is unconditional love. > > Hope this helps, It sure helps. Thank you again. Manuel _____ The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -George Bernard Shaw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 --- Manuel Delaflor <delaflor wrote: > > So let me see if I understand. I believe "THAT" can adquire memory of > the > whole process, from being awake to being in deep sleep, without bein > unconsciouss at any moment. Is this what you say to? My apologies if my writing is not clear. The individual, jiiva, has three bodies that he deals with - the gross physical body (sthuula shariira), the subtle body (consists of four components - which is the field of thoughts - 1. mind (emotional thoughts), 2. intellect (discriminative thoughts), 3, ego (ahankaara) and 4. chitta (memory bank - stored info from the previous 3 components- which can be recollected by the mind. As one gets old, the information retrieval process starts failing. All four together is also referred to as just MIND, since all are thought material or subtle material. The third body is called kaaraNa Shariira - stored vasanaas, which are subtle tendencies, which are formed by repeated thought patterns and egocentric activities. These vasanaas are the one that manifest as desires at the intellect level, agitations at the mind level and actions at the body level. In the waking state all the three bodies are active. In the dream state only second two are active. In addition, in the deep sleep state only the vasanaas or kaaraNa shariira is active. That is the one that wakes you up from deep sleep. Until those vaasanaas are exhausted or neutralized life continues - birth death birth death cycle too. Self-realization is complete and full only when the vaasanaas are all neutralized. All yogas and all religious practices are only meant for exhausting these vaasanaas. No vaasanaas no ego-centered desires and no agitations in the mind and no ego prompted actions. One is free from the pressure of vaasanaas. One does not depend any more on anything other than oneself for happiness. Any dependence on anything other than oneself is slavery. Krishna says aatmanyeva aatmanaa tushhTaH - one revels in oneself and does not depend on any desires for him to be happy- prajahaati sarvaan kaamaan. That is absolute freedom. Obviously one is not afraid any more since one is happy and contended with oneself. That is the test of realization. I have to meditate for me to reach that state is also a false notion- where my happiness depends on my meditation! Therefore, it is you, Manuel Delaflor, that has the mind to think, has the memory to store the info that mind thought about. If and when mind is folded as in deep sleep - the memory is also folded. and when you get up in the morning and someone ask you have you slept well - your mind says 'I slept very well' since mind as well as the associated memory was blank. Absence of duality that exists with the mind is the sleep experience - that is bliss in the sense there is no duality in that state - since any duality can lead to fear, suffering and misery. Hence there is no mind no memory during the deep sleep - only pure ignorance - kaaraNa shariira being illumined by the conscious entity that never ceases to exist. > This is exactly what my experience lacked. It didn’t feel natural, but > so > completely different to what I was accustomed. Maybe something went > wrong? I would not worry about it. Have clear understanding of the nature of the reality - for that only scripture is the pramaaNa or means of knowledge. Keep contemplating on that until you firmly get established in it. The fear is the fear of the ego which gets annihilated in the awakening of the knowledge, and that is natural reaction for some. Reject that - what Christianity it as the devil which survives except the inquiry of its own nature. One-way to eliminate this by having an alter of love - God or Iswara of your liking whom you strongly believe is there to help you from these devils. The more you develop that faith in you, the calmer the mind becomes free from all fears about the unknown. > > A Zen teacher told me once that fear was the last resource of my ego > to > keep itself alive. That it is normal for some individuals. This very > understanding about one is everything was too powerful for me. The > realization about everything is oneself just brought me fear about > being > absolutely alone! The Zen teacher is absolutely right. It is the ego that is trying play its tricks - you can not fight it. If it is real one can fight but it is false notions and it gets more enforced in the very attempt to fight since it is the ego that is decided to fight. Since it is false and the more you give reality to it the more it becomes monstrous you are strengthening by the very fight. Only way to eliminate the false is to expose it to truth either by inquiry of its false nature. Remember the inquiry itself is by the ego. Hence Bhagavaan Ramana says inquire into the inquirer. It becomes a very subtle and delicate inquiry where inquirer himself is being inquired. That is the meditation of inquiry of “who am I? The simpler way is by surrendering it to the alter of love. The second is much easier for many. That is called Bhakti yoga or path of devotion. I hope I am clear now. Hari OM! Sadananda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 Namaste, Advaitins, "Yaha Pashyati Saha Pashyati" Very True. Kallai kandavan nayai kanaan, nayai kandavan kallai kanaan - a Tamil. One who sees the stone does not see the dog, and one sees the dog does not see the stone. It is all about how one looks at the world. Hari Omingly Mani kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: can open – yah pasyati saH pasyati. The rest is the theory. Hari Om! Sadananda Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman and Brahman. Advaitin List Archives available at: http://www.eScribe.com/culture/advaitin/ To Post a message send an email to : advaitin Messages Archived at: advaitin/messages Advaita Visit your group "advaitin" on the web. advaitin Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 18, 2005 Report Share Posted October 18, 2005 advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote: > > Namaste, Advaitins, > "Yaha Pashyati Saha Pashyati" Very True. > Kallai kandavan nayai kanaan, nayai kandavan kallai kanaan - a Tamil. > One who sees the stone does not see the dog, and one sees the dog does not see the stone. It is all about how one looks at the world. > Hari Omingly > Mani > Namaste, Mani-ji "One who sees the dog does not see the stone and one who sees the stone does not see the dog" -- This has been used by scholars for a most beautiful presentation of the advaitic view of the world. He who sees the world as the world will miss the Brahman 'in it'. This is the vyavaharik look of the ignorant. This is like a child seeing the dog and not the stone and being therefore scared of the dog. He who sees only Brahman in the world before him will not have to contend with the world that is before him. This is the pAramArtik look of the Brahma-jnAni. This is seeing the stone and not the dog. But the Brahma JnAni also comes down to have the vyavaharik look at the world and do actions in the world. This look is like seeing the dog and the stone together and still not being affected or influenced by the dog, because of the conviction that it is nothing but stone! PraNAms to all advaitins. profvk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 praNAms Respected Sri Sadananda prabhuji Hare Krishna If you could permit me, I shall share my understanding on your observations. Kindly correct me if I said anything wrong here. KS prabhuji: If you study your wording in the above sentences " when we witness this state from a sAkshis point of view...". First, witness and witnessed both are in duality and exit as two only in vyavahaarika level. bhaskar : Ofcourse, any pramAtru - pramEya duality is vyAvahAric duality only..we cannot overcome this duality when we are *discussing* the shAstra-s. But the term sAkshi has been used in shankara bhAshya in an entirely different context unlike popular witness & witnessed duality prabhuji...as already said all the three states what we are discussing are in the realm of vyavahAra only...but to gain the *real* knowledge of these avasthA-s we are analysing those states objectively without attaching ourselves to any particular state. The state from which we are objectifying all these three states is called sAkshi view point. This what *witness* to even our ahaNkAra..shankara beautifully explains this in tattusamanvayAt sUtra bhAshya * na hi ahaM pratyaya vishaya *kartru vyatirEkENa* tat sAkshI sarvabhUtasthaH, samaH, yEkaH, kUtasTha nityaH purushaH vidhikAndE tarkasamayE vA kEnachit adhigataH sarvasya AtmA* prabhuji, I hope no translation required here shankara's bhAshya vAkya is crystal clear with regard to sAkshi svarUpa. KS prabhuji: If we analyze deeper - the existence of any state, including deep sleep state, is also only at vyavahaarika level. Next, how can 'we witness "this state" from a Sakshi point of view". There is no 'we' to witness. bhaskar : Yes, but are we not objectively looking at these three states prabhuji?? from which stand point we are objectifying it?? we cannot say we are waker & at the same time say we are looking at the waker & waking world objectively...the sAkshi which is witness to all the three state can objectify these three states...can we sit on our own shoulder?? asks shankara while defining our sAkshi svarUpa. KS prabhuji: What Shankara means is that there is a disolution of duality and in the process the witness and witnessed both merged into one homogeneous mass of silence of oneness. bhaskar : prabhuji, this *oneness* is what has been explained as *sAkshi chEtaH* in shruti (sAkshi chEtaH kEvalO nirguNascha - ShvEtAsvatara upanishad). KS prabhuji: Since there is no knowledge of that state, other than the experience of that state, the ignorance remains. bhaskar : Are we not inferring here from the waking point that ignorance *is there* in sushupti where jIvAtma embraced with paramAtma prabhuji...ofcourse, as said earlier we can infer ignorance in deep sleep state also but not when you witness this state from sAkshi...yatra suptO na kaNchana kAmaM kAmayatE na kaNchana svapnaM paShyate tat sushuptaM says shruti. this is what shruti says when doing *avasthA vichAra* from sAkshi view point. KS prabhuji: But remember one does not know that one is ignorant in that state either - otherthan experience of non-duality - samskaara of which is left in the understanding that "I slept very well" -a statement made once one is out of that state! bhaskar : yes, because in that state there is no jnAtru & jnEya vyavahAra...there is no triputi pramAtru-pramEya-pramANa vyavahAra.. it is an absolute state without any duality since in that state *nothing* will be there to *see* it. *sarvAtma bhAvO vidyAphalaM kriyAkAraka phala ShUnyaM sa pratyakShatO nirdhishyatE, *yatra avidyAkAtmakarmANI na saNti*, yaTha viyadAshrayasya prakAshasya prakAshyAbhAvAt anabhivyaktihi *na svarUpa abhAvAt* says shankara. KS prabhuji: don't you think that vyavahaarika reality includes the deep sleep state too! That which is beyong the three states is 'turiiyam'. Everything else is within vyavahaara. bhaskar : *turyAvastha* is not a separate state apart from seeing the all three states objectively from sAkshi view point prabhuji...*chaturtha AyAma* in gaudapAda kArika is meant this only. Humble praNAms once again Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Namaste, maybe the "forms" in (of) dream, sleep and awake state of being.....fall all into formless Brahman....during deep sleep... the end of some waves..... on the ocean... before it start again..... this movements and change are kept "alive" by an ego-mind perception... maybe without ego-mind perception.....the waves are gone....and so...ocean too.... but "water" is remaining only few thoughts..... Regards and love Marc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Namaste, Professorji, "still not being affected or influenced" This I consider is what happens, slowly, steadily, but definitely sooner or later to a "knower of Brahman" i.e. Atma Gnani. One cannot force it to happen, but it does happen. The Upanishad guarantees that one "tarati shokam" i.e. not getting agitated both positively or negatively over what is happening around. Thank you Sir, for your kind words Hari Om Mani "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk wrote: Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 Nameste Sadananda-Ji Thank you for your most informative posts on bodies of the jiva. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The individual, jiiva, has three bodies that he deals with - the gross physical body (sthuula shariira), the subtle body (consists of four components - which is the field of thoughts - 1. mind (emotional thoughts), 2. intellect (discriminative thoughts), 3, ego (ahankaara) and 4. chitta (memory bank - stored info from the previous 3 components- which can be recollected by the mind. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ You also mention: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The third body is called kaaraNa Shariira - stored vasanaas, which are subtle tendencies, which are formed by repeated thought patterns and egocentric activities. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ There seems to be some overlap of functionality of the Chitta of the subtle body which serves as a memory bank and the kaaraNa Shariira, which stores vasanaas. Both seem to be acting as storage areas. Are not vasanaas and memories same. Why do they get stored at two different place?. I would be grateful if you could explain a bit more. pranam Hersh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 advaitin, "hersh_b" <hershbhasin@g...> wrote: > > Nameste Sadananda-Ji > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > There seems to be some overlap of functionality of the Chitta of the > subtle body which serves as a memory bank and the kaaraNa Shariira, > which stores vasanaas. Both seem to be acting as storage areas. Are > not vasanaas and memories same. Why do they get stored at two > different place?. I would be grateful if you could explain a bit more. > > pranam > > Hersh > Namaste, Memories are like items stored on a computer hard-drive as data or a tape recorder as recorded facts; On the other hand samskaras derive from vasanas and are more like a computer programme that creates action once it is turned on...............ONS..Tony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2005 Report Share Posted October 19, 2005 On 10/18/05, kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: > I would not worry about it. Have clear understanding of the nature of > the reality - for that only scripture is the pramaaNa or means of > knowledge. Keep contemplating on that until you firmly get established > in it. I will. The fear is the fear of the ego which gets annihilated in the > awakening of the knowledge, and that is natural reaction for some. Yep, this is exactly my case. The fear is for the anihilation of the ego, of any sense of being a personal being, which is comfortable. The Zen teacher is absolutely right. It is the ego that is trying play > its tricks - you can not fight it. I understand, still, how can I fight if I dont exist? there was just fear, without anyone feeling it, nor anything causing it. I hope I am clear now. You are, thank you very much. I will work in what you said. Manuel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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