How to reconcile advaitha and reincarnation (or transmigration)?

[Guest guest]

Pranams,

 

How should we understand reincarnation theory in the light of

avaitha? In perticular the following are the questions that I seek

answers for. Can any one please clarify these hurdle in my

understanding of Advaitha.

 

Questions;

 

1. What is an advaithin's position on reincarnation or

transmigration? What is it that is migrating from one life to

another? What is the medium through which our vasanas or the

impressions of good and bad deeds, thougts etc. or our unfinished

sadhana migrate from one life to other life. I mean, when a

biological life is created and Self manifests in it we call that a

birth. In this, the biological life (body,mind,intellect,prana etc)

is insentient and forms as a result of pure biochemical reactions.

And Self is all pervading and in it there are no vasanas what so

ever. So by what medium our samskaras (prarabha, sanchitha) in one

life can migrate to another? After a person dies where does these

samskara's reside so that they will be carried to next life?

 

2. What is the merit for me to attain realisation or advaitha-

anubhava and how is it better than dying without advaithaanubhava?

How can one guarantee eternal bliss (not falling back to ignorance)

when one achives realisation? Say for example Ramana Maharshi was a

realised soul and he left his material body. I say he took birth

again as another person(the person, body, mind etc with ignorance)

and now caught in ignorance again. How can we deny the possibility of

this? After all, it is the Same Self that manifests in every body-

mind. Let me explain my question by an example. Say person A is a

regular person and person B is a realised soul and they both died. In

theory, Person A will reincarnate as say person C. Now how can we

relate the ignorence of person C to past life of person A and not

person B.

 

3. If we agree that a birth occurs because of reincarnation or

transmigration of Self, then the human population should be more or

less uniform through out the years/decades/centuries. This is because

every living person in this world should have had a past life too.

Then how come the world population is exploding over the centuries.

>From where all these new persons are coming?

 

---------

Here is how I currently understand different aspects as advaithic

view point. Please clarify if there are any flaws in my understanding.

 

Atman/Self: The conscious principle by virtue of which everything

else is known, Eternal Subject - all pervading and infinite - the

core of beingness/existance - that which can't be negated and can't

be known/reasoned/understood, as the very faculty of intellect or

reasoning presupposes this beingness/consciousness.

 

Birth/Life: When the Self is manifested in a specific body, mind and

intellect (BMI) we can say there is a birth or (conscious)life. In

other words when we refer a birth (say a human birth or human life)

we understand that there is a BMI and the Self that animates or gives

vitality to that BMI.

 

Jiva/Individual: When the Self which is boundless by nature is

thought to be bounded in a specific BMI, a Jiva comes into picture.

In other word when the attributes of BMI (or objective world) are

superimposed on the Self, the Self appears to be limiting itself to a

specific BMI, then that BMI is thought to be an individual or jiva.

The reason for this is ignorance or false knowledge or Avidya or

mithya-jnana or by what ever name we call it.

 

Death: When the BMI decomposes into the elements it is composed of,

then its the death. Or when the BMI is no longer animated by the

Self, the conscious principle that vitalizes BMI then BMI becomes

inert and this can be considered as death. The Self remains but the

BMI falls.

 

Diversity of Jivas: When the Self manifests in different BMIs and

when these different BMIs are superimposed on the Self different

jivas arise. That means in each Jiva, the Self is mistakenly be

limited by the corresponding BMI (like when the space is limited by

different posts, then different 'pot spaces' can be seen).My

understanding of the Diversity of Jivas is in the lines of Ghata-

Akaasa and Maha-Akkasa approach.

 

Brahman: The Self, when it is not thought to be bounded by anything

(like BMI or anything). The all pervading conscousness. The absolute

existance, knowledge principle. As there is no question of birth or

death here (as there is no superimposition) Brahman is considered as

eternal. The changeless entity which witnesses all objective changes.

 

World/Jagat: The objective entities that are felt/known/experianced

by the BMI when it is vitalised by the Self. That which can be known

or classified as "That" including the BMI itself, can be categorised

as world.

 

--------------

 

Expects some insight from you all.

 

Thank you very much

 

Kanakaraju

[Guest guest]

Sorry if this sounds to simple. But why do you need that? All there is is

THIS. Besides, there is no one in the first place, so, who would

"reincarnate"??

Manuel Delaflor

_____

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt

the world to himself. Therefore, all progress

depends on the unreasonable man.

 

-George Bernard Shaw

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thank you Manuel, But, Are you saying that I will not take another

birth even if I don't realize that I am THIS, the all pervading

existance? Is so, why should I bother to realize in the first

place?

 

Advaitha does agree to the concept of transmigration though in a

vyavaharika level. But it is this distinction between Vyavahara and

Paramartha (related to something after death) that bothers me. If I

had to reincarnate, that cause for that would be the sanchitha karma

which has false-knowledge (avidya) as its root. But after the death

of a person where do this avidya take its shelter to manifest again

as a further birth. It appears to me that the BMI complex that merges

in nature apparently can't have this avidya after death, neither do

the Atman which is by nature pure. So what is causing further birth?

 

In a nut shell, the question is How avidya transmigrates across

births? I understand how avidya (or supeimposition of non-self on

self) can operate on a being when alive. But it continues after

death? I couldn't understand this point. If not, Why should I realise

in the first place then?

 

I am not refuting advaitha here, I could not just follow it and

seeking an understandable explonation.

 

Thank you very much!

 

Kanakaraju

 

 

 

 

advaitin, Manuel Delaflor <delaflor@g...>

wrote:

>

> Sorry if this sounds to simple. But why do you need that? All there

is is

> THIS. Besides, there is no one in the first place, so, who would

> "reincarnate"??

> Manuel Delaflor

> _____

> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

> the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt

> the world to himself. Therefore, all progress

> depends on the unreasonable man.

>

> -George Bernard Shaw

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "kanaka_raju8" <kanaka_raju8>

wrote:

>

>

> Advaitha does agree to the concept of transmigration though in a

> vyavaharika level. But it is this distinction between Vyavahara

and

> Paramartha (related to something after death) that bothers me. If

I

> had to reincarnate, that cause for that would be the sanchitha

karma

> which has false-knowledge (avidya) as its root. But after the

death

> of a person where do this avidya take its shelter to manifest

again

> as a further birth. It appears to me that the BMI complex that

merges

> in nature apparently can't have this avidya after death, neither

do

> the Atman which is by nature pure. So what is causing further

birth?

>

> In a nut shell, the question is How avidya transmigrates across

> births? I understand how avidya (or supeimposition of non-self on

> self) can operate on a being when alive. But it continues after

> death? I couldn't understand this point. If not, Why should I

realise

> in the first place then?

>

 

Namaste, Kanakaraju-ji

 

Good question! The body dies at death. But the mind survives in a

subtle form. It is a part of the sukshma-sharira (subtle body) which

travels along with the Jiva to the next birth. It is that subtle

body that carries the avidya and the vAsanAs of the indivudal as

well as his sanchitakarma. It is what gives him the next birth. This

luggage of the sukshma sharira is what we have to exhaust by doing

our karma and bhakti properly.

 

Well, this is too much of a simplification. But since you know

already enough of the basics, this would be the answer to your

question.

 

PraNAms to all advaitins

profvk

[Guest guest]

On 10/25/05, kanaka_raju8 <kanaka_raju8 wrote:

>

>

> Thank you Manuel, But, Are you saying that I will not take another

> birth even if I don't realize that I am THIS, the all pervading

> existance? Is so, why should I bother to realize in the first

> place?

 

Who cares about it? Who is asking the question? If you hypothesize a being

(a soul, or whatever is called) then you have a problem, but when you open

your eyes, what its called "eyes" to be more precise, whate else do you have

to know? How on earth a contruct like a "soul" could exist? and most

important, sorry for reiterate, but who ask this question? Who have the

desire to not born again?

Please excuse me for not using the scriptures you talk about. All I know is

what I see.

Manuel Delaflor

_____

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt

the world to himself. Therefore, all progress

depends on the unreasonable man.

 

-George Bernard Shaw

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

> Good question! The body dies at death. But the mind survives in a

> subtle form. It is a part of the sukshma-sharira (subtle body) which

> travels along with the Jiva to the next birth. It is that subtle

> body that carries the avidya and the vAsanAs of the indivudal as

> well as his sanchitakarma. It is what gives him the next birth. This

> luggage of the sukshma sharira is what we have to exhaust by doing

> our karma and bhakti properly.

 

If there is no other, and there is no world, how can anything "survive"

something else? All those ideas come from a dualist world. There is no such

thing, but in a mind that its not integrated with existence. ;-)

Manuel Delaflor

_____

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt

the world to himself. Therefore, all progress

depends on the unreasonable man.

 

-George Bernard Shaw

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Kanakaraju,

 

I too have thought about this question; it's a difficult one. Here is

my understanding of the matter.

 

The more basic teachings seem to tell us about a soul or mind that is

reborn again and again, until liberation is attained. Some of the

more advanced teachings sometimes deny rebirth or reincarnation. From

what I understand of the advanced teachings, from someone like Ramana

Maharshi, reincarnation is a wrong view; I think the Buddha also

spoke of reincarnation as a wrong view. It is a wrong view because

you are not the one who reincarnates or is reborn, but the Self. So

identifying yourself as an individual who will die and be reborn is

not correct. As long as one thinks that they are an individual they

will indeed be reborn, and all of the teachings about rebirth will

hold true. But the real truth is that you are the Self, which has not

been born, nor will ever die.

 

One viewpoint is that when a person dies, that person is no more,

even though their karmas and samskaras survive. When a new person is

born, the energy of the previous person will supply the energy for

the new one, but it isn't the same person. Regarding this viewpoint,

I've wondered if the person is reallly no more, is the Self then

realized, or does it still identify with the new person. Very

difficult questions!

 

Reincarnation implies a transmigrating soul, but non-dual teachings

usually deny the existence of the soul. Rebirth is the more

appropriate term used in non-dual teachings.

 

Regards,

Nathan

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Manuel Delaflor <delaflor@g...>

wrote:

>

> >

> > Good question! The body dies at death. But the mind survives in a

> > subtle form. It is a part of the sukshma-sharira (subtle body)

which

> > travels along with the Jiva to the next birth. It is that subtle

> > body that carries the avidya and the vAsanAs of the indivudal as

> > well as his sanchitakarma. It is what gives him the next birth.

This

> > luggage of the sukshma sharira is what we have to exhaust by

doing

> > our karma and bhakti properly.

>

> If there is no other, and there is no world, how can

anything "survive"

> something else? All those ideas come from a dualist world. There

is no such

> thing, but in a mind that its not integrated with existence. ;-)

> Manuel Delaflor

 

Namaste

 

Your argument, Manuel-ji, is true in the paramarthika sense. In the

paramarthika sense there is no birth, no death. In the Vyavaharika

sense, there is birth, there is journey of the jiva, there is subtle

body and there is survival of the subtle body. Please do not mix the

two senses in the same context of discussion!

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

Thank you Murthyji, Nathanji and Manuelji for your replies.

 

Now, you say (Murthy & Nathan) rebirth exists in vyavahara sense

and sukshma-sarira (the sum total of our past karmas and vAsanAs) is

what is the cause of further births. Now how should this sUkshma-

sarIra be understood? Is it vyavaharika (i.e only an apparent

reality) or pAramArthika? If it only apparent, then it should have

avidyA as its basis for it to migrate to a different body. And this

avidyA presupposes conciousness. Without consiousness one can't

superimpose non-self on self. Now is this sUkshma-sarIra a concious

entity which by its own accord migrates to another body? It also

means, we will be consious of our wrong notion after death and still

identify the subtle body with non-self, hence take further birth. I

have diffculty understanding "HOW" the sum total of our past karmas

and vAsanAs are capable of manifesting in a future birth only if it

is real in vyavaharika sense? What makes it to?

 

Or is the sUkshma-sarIra an absolute reality, as long as one is

not realised in ones life, and has no Avidya as such? In that case,

we have to admit as many sUkshma-sarIra's as there are jIvas. This

can be understood in the light of sAnkya (where prakrithi directs the

jiva to take further births) or dwitha standpoint (Narayana directs,

as souls are eternally dependent on Him), but not from advaitha

standpoint.

 

I am posting my original questions again to continue the discussion.

 

Questions;

 

1. What is an advaithin's position on reincarnation or

transmigration? What is it that is migrating from one life to

another? What is the medium through which our vasanas or the

impressions of good and bad deeds, thougts etc. or our unfinished

sadhana migrate from one life to other life. I mean, when a

biological life is created and Self manifests in it we call that a

birth. In this, the biological life (body,mind,intellect,prana etc)

is insentient and forms as a result of pure biochemical reactions.

And Self is all pervading and in it there are no vasanas what so

ever. So by what medium our samskaras (prarabha, sanchitha) in one

life can migrate to another? After a person dies where does these

samskara's reside so that they will be carried to next life?

 

2. What is the merit for me to attain realisation or advaitha-

anubhava and how is it better than dying without advaithaanubhava?

How can one guarantee eternal bliss (not falling back to ignorance)

when one achives realisation? Say person A is a regular person and

person B is a realised soul and they both died. In theory, Person A

will reincarnate as say person C. Now how can we relate the ignorence

of person C to past life of person A and not person B (for in real

sense there are no 'persons' as such)

 

3. If we agree that a birth occurs because of reincarnation or

transmigration of Self, then the human population should be more or

less uniform through out the years/decades/centuries. This is because

every living person in this world should have had a past life too.

Then how come the world population is exploding over the centuries.

>From where all these new persons are coming?

 

PranAms!

 

Kanakaraju

 

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

wrote:

>

> advaitin, Manuel Delaflor <delaflor@g...>

> wrote:

> >

> > >

> > > Good question! The body dies at death. But the mind survives in

a

> > > subtle form. It is a part of the sukshma-sharira (subtle body)

> which

> > > travels along with the Jiva to the next birth. It is that subtle

> > > body that carries the avidya and the vAsanAs of the indivudal as

> > > well as his sanchitakarma. It is what gives him the next birth.

> This

> > > luggage of the sukshma sharira is what we have to exhaust by

> doing

> > > our karma and bhakti properly.

> >

> > If there is no other, and there is no world, how can

> anything "survive"

> > something else? All those ideas come from a dualist world. There

> is no such

> > thing, but in a mind that its not integrated with existence. ;-)

> > Manuel Delaflor

>

> Namaste

>

> Your argument, Manuel-ji, is true in the paramarthika sense. In the

> paramarthika sense there is no birth, no death. In the Vyavaharika

> sense, there is birth, there is journey of the jiva, there is

subtle

> body and there is survival of the subtle body. Please do not mix

the

> two senses in the same context of discussion!

>

> PraNAms to all advaitins.

> profvk

>

[Guest guest]

Manuel Delaflor wrote:

> If there is no other, and there is no world, how can anything "survive"

> something else? All those ideas come from a dualist world.

> Manuel Delaflor

> _____

 

That is also just an idea, is it not?

[Guest guest]

On 10/25/05, Harsha wrote:

>

> Manuel Delaflor wrote:

>

> > If there is no other, and there is no world, how can anything "survive"

> > something else? All those ideas come from a dualist world.

> > Manuel Delaflor

> > _____

>

> That is also just an idea, is it not?

 

Well, I see it more as a negative, because there is no another idea to take

its place. You do not replace the idea of a "soul" with another one.

Manuel Delaflor

_____

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt

the world to himself. Therefore, all progress

depends on the unreasonable man.

 

-George Bernard Shaw

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

_____

 

advaitin

[advaitin] On Behalf Of Manuel

Delaflor

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 5:32 PM

advaitin

Re: Re: How to reconcile advaitha

and reincarnation (or transmigration)?

 

On 10/25/05, Harsha wrote:

>

> Manuel Delaflor wrote:

>

> > If there is no other, and there is no world, how

can anything "survive"

> > something else? All those ideas come from a dualist

world.

> > Manuel Delaflor

> > _____

>

> That is also just an idea, is it not?

 

Well, I see it more as a negative, because there is no

another idea to take

its place. You do not replace the idea of a "soul" with

another one.

Manuel Delaflor

 

These are just more ideas to defend the previous

"negative", are they not?

_____

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Harsha" wrote:

>

> _____

>

> advaitin

> [advaitin] On Behalf Of Manuel

>

> These are just more ideas to defend the previous

> "negative", are they not?

> _____

>

 

 

Namste:

 

That is why the concept of "neti - neti" came into existance.

 

Thus having said all this "the real" remain "anivacaniiya"

 

Warm regards,

 

Dr. Yadu

[Guest guest]

On 10/25/05, Harsha wrote:

>

> Well, I see it more as a negative, because there is no

> another idea to take

> its place. You do not replace the idea of a "soul" with

> another one.

> Manuel Delaflor

>

> These are just more ideas to defend the previous

> "negative", are they not?

> _____

 

If I ask you to see, to feel, not to think, am I stating an idea?

Manuel Delaflor

_____

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt

the world to himself. Therefore, all progress

depends on the unreasonable man.

 

-George Bernard Shaw

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

_____

 

advaitin

[advaitin] On Behalf Of Manuel

Delaflor

Tuesday, October 25, 2005 7:09 PM

advaitin

Re: Re: How to reconcile advaitha

and reincarnation (or transmigration)?

 

On 10/25/05, Harsha wrote:

 

If I ask you to see, to feel, not to think, am I

stating an idea?

Manuel Delaflor

 

I don't know. What do you think?

 

_____

 

 

_____

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namastey Kanakaraju:

 

Prof VK ji rightly mentioned that

>This luggage of the sukshma sharira is what we have

to exhaust by doing our karma and bhakti properly.

 

Ancient Indian belief is that re-birth is necessitated

to exhaust ones karma’s. So re-birth will have to be

looked into with the context of Karma. There is

nothing within Brahman or Atman that is subject to

Karma. Brahman is untouched by anything that pertains

to Jiva or the world of names and forms (nama – rupa).

Karma does not follow from the real nature of the

self.

 

Let us examine some of your statements

>In this, the biological life

(body,mind,intellect,prana etc)

>is insentient and forms as a result of pure

biochemical reactions.

 

According to Advaita Vedanta the Manas and Budhi

constitute sushma sharira and they are not a result of

some biochemical reactions as mentioned in your

statement. The software or Manas/Budhi entity is

distinct from the body and it is akin to ignorance

that someone would look at a PC and believe that the

operating system software inside the PC is a product

of the hardware constituting the PC.

>where does these samskara's reside so that they will

be carried to next life?

 

There are no house keeping services or cable modem

services to transport and safe keep sushma sharira

between births. The belief is that the soul could

spend the sojourn between births in many lokas

depending on the accumulated Karma.

>How can one guarantee eternal bliss (not falling back

to ignorance) when one achives realization

 

There are no warranties and guaranties from external

agencies in spiritual quest. The sabda pramana in

Advaita is the basis for acceptance that once

realizing the Brahman then there is permanent unity

with Brahman.

> From where all these new persons are coming?

Have we missed to count the numbers of insects,

animals and plants too? ;-)

 

Advaita Vedanta is not about expounding Karma and

accepts karma through Arthapatti pramana. The

postulation is a supposition of a fact to make another

fact more intelligible. Even as Karma’s necessity is

not directly implied by the metaphysical principles of

Advaita even so its denial does not lead to

consequences that are in anyway contradicting

Advaita's doctrine.

 

Pranam,

RR

 

 

 

 

 

 

FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.

http://farechase.

[Guest guest]

Thank you Rajeshji.

 

Based on your input and that of Prof VK ji and a little analysis the

following is what I understood so far. Please comment on the

following. There may be flaws in my understanding.

 

1. The sushma-sharira (henceforth referred as SS) consisting of Manas

and buddhi, is not formed just like other limbs of the sarira, but

this SS gets carried over across different births. (ofcourse, as long

as one is under the spell of avidya)

 

2. Just like we experiance a dualistic world with joys and sorrows in

this world (because of avidya) through our gross body, we undergo

different planes of experiance (may be we call these different lokas)

through the SS after the so called death, when the gross body is

dropped off. Here again the avidya (or Kaarana Sarira) is the base of

all these experiances for SS, as the SS will also be under the spell

of avidya. SS will also have the consciousness factor through which

it will have the notion of ahankaAra (as a limited ego). Hence SS is

only a reality in VyavahArika sense.

 

3. In its journey to experiance the accumilated vAsanAs and Karma

phala, SS undergoes different births and eventually a human birth.

This is when one does further karma, and based our notion of ahankAra

(KArthrutva bhAva or akarthrutva bhAva) it collects more of the

vAsanAs (or spends some it) and that becomes the seed for further

birth and cycle goes on.

 

4. When in a human body, if one is able to completly exhaust the

accumilated karma-phala and adds no more of it through sAdhana

(karma, bhakthi, Raja yogAs) then SS will cease to exist. Or if one

is able to realise the correct identity and overcome avidya (jnana

yoga) then even if SS exists the Kaarana Sarira (avidya) is cut

asunder and SS finds no more ground to act upon. In both cases there

will be no more SS and the Self shines in its own light.

 

5. In this condition of aparoksha-anubhava, all notions of

experiance, perception loses their meaning as the one identified with

Self see more experiancer/experianced duality. The death of such a

person obviously can not produce further births, as either there is

no SS or Kaarana Sarira (or avidya).

 

I am still trying to understand how Advaitha explains different

phonomina. (Multiplicity of jivAs ia another big dilemma). So please

provide your input.

 

Thank you all

 

Kanakaraju

 

 

advaitin, Rajesh Ramachander

<rrajeshchander> wrote:

>

> Namastey Kanakaraju:

>

> Prof VK ji rightly mentioned that

> >This luggage of the sukshma sharira is what we have

> to exhaust by doing our karma and bhakti properly.

>

> Ancient Indian belief is that re-birth is necessitated

> to exhaust ones karma's. So re-birth will have to be

> looked into with the context of Karma. There is

> nothing within Brahman or Atman that is subject to

> Karma. Brahman is untouched by anything that pertains

> to Jiva or the world of names and forms (nama – rupa).

> Karma does not follow from the real nature of the

> self.

>

> Let us examine some of your statements

>

> >In this, the biological life

> (body,mind,intellect,prana etc)

> >is insentient and forms as a result of pure

> biochemical reactions.

>

> According to Advaita Vedanta the Manas and Budhi

> constitute sushma sharira and they are not a result of

> some biochemical reactions as mentioned in your

> statement. The software or Manas/Budhi entity is

> distinct from the body and it is akin to ignorance

> that someone would look at a PC and believe that the

> operating system software inside the PC is a product

> of the hardware constituting the PC.

>

> >where does these samskara's reside so that they will

> be carried to next life?

>

> There are no house keeping services or cable modem

> services to transport and safe keep sushma sharira

> between births. The belief is that the soul could

> spend the sojourn between births in many lokas

> depending on the accumulated Karma.

>

> >How can one guarantee eternal bliss (not falling back

> to ignorance) when one achives realization

>

> There are no warranties and guaranties from external

> agencies in spiritual quest. The sabda pramana in

> Advaita is the basis for acceptance that once

> realizing the Brahman then there is permanent unity

> with Brahman.

>

> > From where all these new persons are coming?

> Have we missed to count the numbers of insects,

> animals and plants too? ;-)

>

> Advaita Vedanta is not about expounding Karma and

> accepts karma through Arthapatti pramana. The

> postulation is a supposition of a fact to make another

> fact more intelligible. Even as Karma's necessity is

> not directly implied by the metaphysical principles of

> Advaita even so its denial does not lead to

> consequences that are in anyway contradicting

> Advaita's doctrine.

>

> Pranam,

> RR

>

>

>

>

>

>

> FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.

> http://farechase.

>

[Guest guest]

Namastey Kanakaraju ji:

>I am still trying to understand how Advaitha explains

>different phonomina. (Multiplicity of jivAs ia

another >big dilemma).

 

We as jivas are deceived by our identification with

roles or functions that we perform and personify

ourselves with aspects we think make up our self. The

worldly forces acting on us also bequeath to us a

misleading finality that we assign unto them. Thus we

are victims owing to our ignorance and this according

to Advaita is the process through which we have a

misleading belief in our independent reality of the

individual self as jivas and whereby we ignorantly

deny the reality of Brahman.

 

The message of Advaita Vedanta is to establish the

oneness of reality and lead us on a path to

realization of Brahman. According to Advaita Vedanta

the differences we perceive with Brahman are erroneous

and identification with Brahman transcends us from

worldly afflictions. Advaita Vedanta is committed to

answer us on knowledge for realization of self through

which one can attain freedom and wisdom on a spiritual

plane. Advaita Vedanta affirms that we are not an

individual self or jiva that we have mistakenly

identified ourselves to be but Brahman itself. This

non-differentiating knowledge leads us to freedom or

Moksha.

 

Pranam,

RR

 

 

 

 

 

FareChase: Search multiple travel sites in one click.

http://farechase.

[Guest guest]

On 10/26/05, Rajesh Ramachander <rrajeshchander wrote:

>

> Namastey Kanakaraju ji:

>

> >I am still trying to understand how Advaitha explains

> >different phonomina. (Multiplicity of jivAs ia

> another >big dilemma).

>

> We as jivas are deceived by our identification with

> roles or functions that we perform and personify

> ourselves with aspects we think make up our self. The

> worldly forces acting on us also bequeath to us a

> misleading finality that we assign unto them. Thus we

> are victims owing to our ignorance and this according

> to Advaita is the process through which we have a

> misleading belief in our independent reality of the

> individual self as jivas and whereby we ignorantly

> deny the reality of Brahman.

>

> The message of Advaita Vedanta is to establish the

> oneness of reality and lead us on a path to

> realization of Brahman. According to Advaita Vedanta

> the differences we perceive with Brahman are erroneous

> and identification with Brahman transcends us from

> worldly afflictions. Advaita Vedanta is committed to

> answer us on knowledge for realization of self through

> which one can attain freedom and wisdom on a spiritual

> plane. Advaita Vedanta affirms that we are not an

> individual self or jiva that we have mistakenly

> identified ourselves to be but Brahman itself. This

> non-differentiating knowledge leads us to freedom or

> Moksha.

 

This is how I see it. Doubts about the undifferentiated can only exist in a

human condition, and I dont see the need of perpetuating things like an

independent self. Once one trascend the human consciousness (that somehow

creates duality) then no question can be asked, what is left is just Brahman

itself, how can there be any doubts?

Manuel Delaflor

_____

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt

the world to himself. Therefore, all progress

depends on the unreasonable man.

 

-George Bernard Shaw

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

List Moderator's Note: List wants to thank the members for their continued

support to list policies and guidelines. Please do not include the previous

posters' messages in the tail end (or in the beginning) of your message while

sending your replies. Both the new members and other members do seem to continue

to repeat doing this. The list appreciates your cooperation in keeping the

message crisp and clear by removing all unnecessary parts of previous messages.

(As it is done in this message!)

 

--- Manuel Delaflor <delaflor wrote:

> On 10/26/05, Rajesh Ramachander

> <rrajeshchander wrote:

> >

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

> Dear sir,

Nodoubt, we empirically understand the

falsity of the jiva, and that at the transcendental

level we are only dream-objects, each object

pretending to be a subject vis-a-vis the other

objects. Perhaps our idea that this understanding

should happen at an individual level seems to be a

misconception, which it is difficult to overcome, as

all our perceptions are through our anthakaranas,

which lead us to an individual existence. We have to

be very patient, dismissing everything at the

psychological level as illusions, pursuing stoically

our karmaically ordained dispositions, as even though

the true Self is free from this circus of samsara,

there is a false self insinuating into our lives. That

is why acharya Ramanuja did not accept the concept of

jivanmukata, even though it is an ontological truth.

Somewhere, Nisargdatta says that as long as the body

lasts, there is a tinge of ignorance, and hence even

an enlightened person will be eagerly hankering after

this exalted happening to shed the first and lost

pain. The unreality of transmigration is relevant only

at the transcendental level, the Buddhistic thinkers

to circumvent this philosophical untruth introducing

the idea of the same individuality, not continuing,

but only the flux of dispositions of the skandhas,

this being termed as a spurious offshoot by Bhagavan

Ramana.

 

sankarramn

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste.

 

We have dealt with this subject several times in the past.

 

We need terms like sUkshma and stUla sharIrAs only when reincarnation

is seen as a transmigration of a so-called `dweller of the body'

or `soul' from one dwelling unit to another in space and time. Most

of us like to restrict reincarnation to this very familiar planet of

ours called Earth! This happens because we take the words of our

seers like punarapi jananaM punarapi maraNaM punarapi jananI-jaThare

shayanaM too literally.

 

The theme of Advaita is Consciousness – the one and only One there is

where all realities or planes of existence conditioned by space and

time or by any other possible dimensions whatsoever exist without

distinction and division. There is, therefore, no need for us to

consider reincarnation as taking place sequentially in time on this

terra firm of ours, which means a guy dying in 2005 need not

necessarily reincarnate on a future date therefrom; he can as well

take birth in the Victorian England of the past or on another

planet. Please don't ask which planet. Consciousness will have one

all made ready for the prospective reborn by then – one which the

space-scientists on this earth of ours can never hope to catch in

their sophisticated radio-telescopes! There is also the possibility

that one can exist on different planes of reality all at the same

time and not know about it at all! With Consciousness unraveling all

the time, all such surprising possibilities are quite on the cards.

 

There is death and birth for others only. That is the truth. The

subjects who see others taking birth and dying all around them really

do not die because birth and death cannot be experiences for them.

They only see their bodies aging and wrinkling and live in moribund

anxiety and fear of an anticipated death simply because they see

other bodies perishing around them. What a pity! Then they begin to

theorize on different modes of transmigration when every next moment

could perhaps be a `rebirth' on an altogether different plane than

the previous one!

 

We would, therefore, do well to enjoy the show abiding in

Consciouness than speculate on sequential leaps from one misery to

another and so on. This way we can also avoid accounting for the

multiplicity of jIvAs on this already over-populated globe.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

[Guest guest]

--- Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair

wrote:

> Namaste.

>

> We have dealt with this subject several times in the

> past.

> >

> We would, therefore, do well to enjoy the show

> abiding in

> Consciouness than speculate on sequential leaps from

> one misery to

> another and so on. This way we can also avoid

> accounting for the

> multiplicity of jIvAs on this already over-populated

> globe.

>

> PraNAms.

>

> Madathil Nair

>

>

> Arthur Osborne, when a person made a pessimistic

statement about scientific developments overwhelming

religious ideas, and the possibilty being bleak for a

person of spiritual disposition to further evolve in a

future birth, gave a reply to the following effect.

The world experienced by each individual is only a

subjective one, all of us not experiencing the same

world, this not being confined to the private

encounters in the dreams, but including the waking

state also. This being a fact, and the objective world

itself being a subjective projection, an individual

dying in this so-called common world, may be born in

the times even of Julius Ceasur, a position not

capable of being cherished by the Dvaita schools. The

reply of the responcent is an excellent thought. The

self containing all possible illusory manifestations

of time and space, itself being beyond time, it is not

important where we are born, its time sequence. The

only baffling thing is the supposed reality of the

psychological selfhood of ours, which causes us all

problems. There is a novel thought in the yogasutras

of Patanjali, of the yogi being able to create many

bodies simultaneously, this being termed as artificial

bodies (Nirmana Kaya), to extinguish the karmas

speedily. Why not we be one of those artificial

bodies.

with regards'

sankarraman

>

>

 

 

 

 

 

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