The Goddess of Time

[Guest guest]

Namaste sankarramanJi

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I do not understand how Purusa can hold the attribute of time, as I

understand Purusa only to be an impassive witness

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

I am afraid my last post appeared to state a contradiction which

resulted from lumping together three schools of thoughts.

 

1) Field and Knower of Field as per Gita

 

2) From Kapila Gita (Bhagavatam Chs.25 to 33 of III Canto). Not to be

confused with Kapila of Sankhya as this admits an Ishvara.

 

3) Pursha and Prakriti of Sankhya.

 

At the outset you are right that no attribute other than

consciousness can belong to the Pursha of Sankhya (#3). All Fields

(objects of Knowledge) are attributes of Prakriti (at cosmic level)

and Jiva (at individual level). More specifically Fields belong to

the "mental stuff" in both which is Mahat in Prakriti and Buddhi in

the Jiva.

 

#1 and #2 can be merged together. This is because in #1, I am

speculating that Fields belong to Prakriti/Jiva and #2 specifically

states that Time is one of the 25 Realities. Both believe in the

reality of Ishvara and are saying the same thing.

 

I can now discuss the microcosm /macrocosm in two models. The Sankhya

model and the Gita model.

 

Please be warned that this is a very speculative, and subjective

post. The two models I propose and the (software) examples I use are

entirely my creation and could be entirely incorrect and illogical.

The only justification I have in reporting these is that they have

been helpful to me in my understanding the concepts under discussion.

 

Sankhya model

~~~~~~~~~~

Pursha is like a magnet, in presence of which Prakriti looses its

state of equilibrium of the three gunas, like iron filing in presence

of a magnetic field. Prakriti then evolves into Mahat, Ahamkara. Out

of Ahamkara the six senses, the five motor organs , the five

potentials and the five atoms evolve. The total count of these

realities is 24. This is at the macrocosm level.

 

The microcosm (Jiva) is a small scale model of the macrocosm hence

whatever happens at the Cosmic level, happens at the individual level

too. Thus the counterpart of Mahat is Buddhi in the Jiva. Ahamkara

exists in both etc. It is the contention of Sankhya that individual

Buddhis passively exist in the mahat.Until the time of emancipation

when there is a cessation of evolution, the bond between pursha(jiva)

and buddhi holds good. The germs of rebirth are the spiritual residue

of experience which has its location in buddhi.

 

Using software terminology, each jiva is a separate "class" with its

own storage area which in software technology are "local variables".

These local variables are the storage areas for the vasanas resulting

from false identification with fields. All these "class" instances

reside in the Mahat.

 

Gita Model

~~~~~~~~

The Gita Model is quite similar to the Sankhya model except for one

important difference. Ishvara is introduced as the "base or ancestor"

class using software terminology. In software there can be a "base"

class which other (derived) classes can inherit from. The base class

can have "storage area" in form of variables which all derived

classes can read, write or provide their own implementation of .

 

Using software terminology again the first evolute of Mahat is

Ishvara which is the base class and out of which all the "jiva"

classes are instantiated. Now there are two storage areas available

to the Jiva :

 

1) Storage area In Ishvara

 

2) Within the "Jiva" class. Jiva class inherits the variables in

Ishvara but can also store variables locally.

 

Now sometimes I speculate how is it that when we offer all our works

to Ishvara, we escape the results. It is because (as per my

speculation) we store the vasanas in Ishvara and not locally. When

we are reborn, the vasanas are not in our local storage area hence we

suffer no results.

 

Thus we see that the Gita and Sankhya models are quite similar and

for purpose of discussing Time we can now treat them together.

 

Time as a mental abstraction

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The first product of evolution of Prakriti is the Mahat. Mental

Abstractions are the evolutes of Mahat in Prakriti and Buddhi in Jiva.

 

Mahat/Buddhi is characterized by the preponderance of Sattva guna.

This sattva predominance in mahat/buddhi means that it is primarily

the mental stuff or the stuff of consciousness (which is given

sentience by the Pursha). Kovoor Behanan ("Yoga a Scientific

Evaluation") says that there is a theoretical reason why the stuff of

consciousness should be the first product of evolution. Sattva is

that existence of matter which can come into "contact" with Pursha

and act as the basis of mind and discursive intellect. He gives an

example. A piece of rock and crystal are both composed of atoms but

the rock cannot reflect the rays of the sun whereas the crystal can.

Sattva as against the other two gunas has that something in its

nature which, although different from the pursha, makes the

reflection of the latter possible.

 

In Bhakti literature as in ProfVK's translation of Soundaryalahari we

have description of the .parAhantA. experience of Brahman:

 

The ShivaM was like a calm, ripple-less, vibration-less peaceful

lake; and in that lake, the first ripple, the first vibration, the

first movement took place in the form of .kAmaM.. The Brahman had a

cognition

I am - I am the Brahman. The absolute Brahman has just

been .moved. . moved from within! This movement is the .spandanaM..

 

So the first act of Brahman was an act of cognition, a mental

act. "I am". I think this is when Time started.

 

As you will see from the quotes from Behanan and Vivakananda below,

both say that Time is a mental abstraction. This is exactly my point.

Mental Abstractions are objects of Knowledge per the definition of BG

13.2.

 

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am quoting from "Yoga a Scientific Evaluation"/ Evolution and its

Stages- pg 88 by Kovoor Behanan

He is discussing Time as per Sankhya here.

 

<quote>

Everything in the world appears as change and the empirical mind

relates these changes to time and space. Considered independently

time and space are abstractions. Time order is merely another way of

representing a series of changes. If the atom is the

smallest "indivisible" unit of matter, then the time taken by one

atom to change i.e., to leave one point and reach the next would

constitute the smallest indivisible unit of time- a moment (kshana).

Objectively there is a continuous succession of changes and

moments.This does not give us the right to believe that there is a

continuous time. Our empirical knowledge of an infinite continuum is

not objectively true; hence this perception must be the minds method

of schematizing the objective world. Time therefore is discrete; our

perception of infinite time has no metaphysical reality.

<end quote>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote from Vivekananda from his lecture "The Real Nature of Man"

 

<quote>

Time begins with mind, space also is in the mind. Causation cannot

stand without time. Without the idea of succession there cannot be

any idea of causation. Time, space and causation, therefore, are in

the mind, and as this Atman is beyond the mind and formless, it must

be beyond time, beyond space, and beyond causation. Now, if it is

beyond time, space, and causation, it must be infinite. Then comes

the highest speculation in our philosophy. The infinite cannot be

two. If the soul be infinite, there can be only one Soul, and all

ideas of various souls — you having one soul, and I having another,

and so forth — are not real. The Real Man, therefore, is one and

infinite, the omnipresent Spirit. And the apparent man is only a

limitation of that Real Man. In that sense the mythologies are true

that the apparent man, however great he may be, is only a dim

reflection of the Real Man who is beyond. The Real Man, the Spirit,

being beyond cause and effect, not bound by time and space, must,

therefore, be free. He was never bound, and could not be bound. The

apparent man, the reflection, is limited by time, space, and

causation, and is, therefore, bound. Or in the language of some of

our philosophers, he appears to be bound, but really is not. This is

the reality in our souls, this omnipresence, this spiritual nature,

this infinity. Every soul is infinite, therefore there is no question

of birth and death.

 

Some children were being examined. The examiner put them rather hard

questions, and among them was this one: "Why does not the earth

fall?" He wanted to evoke answers about gravitation. Most of the

children could not answer at all; a few answered that it was

gravitation or something. One bright little girl answered it by

putting another question: "Where should it fall?" The question is

nonsense. Where should the earth fall? There is no falling or rising

for the earth. In infinite space there is no up or down; that is only

in the relative. Where is the going or coming for the infinite?

Whence should it come and whither should it go?

 

Thus, when people cease to think of the past or future, when they

give up the idea of body, because the body comes and goes and is

limited, then they have risen to a higher ideal.

 

<end quote>

 

 

Regards

Hersh

[Guest guest]

Time is consciousness for objects.

Time is the beginning of consciousness.

Information for objects is uni-directional.

The spreading out ripples from the dropped stone do not gather

themselves back into the centre again.

 

Time is the ambience of activity for objects. Activity creates time not

as an extra thing but as part of the meaning of activity. Things inform

each other: the spirit moves upon the water. If time is the being of

objects and the principle of information of objects then time is

consciousness.

 

Curiously one of the marks of the deepening of meditation is the loss

of the sense of time, 45 minutes can seem like 10. Conversely when

much is happening and there is an overload of information 10 minutes

can seem like 45.

 

Some words are suggestive of the slowing and even the reversal of

time, recollection, anamnesis, anantadrome.

 

What is the relationship of time to causality? Considering Time as the

ambience of activity for objects we are up against the insufficency of

the Empiricist tradition of Locke, Berkeley and Hume. How do you

build the notion of causality out of simple sensations of succession

pace Hume, without already having before and after and yes,

already already.

 

I think that will do for …..Now!

 

Best Regards,

Michael.

[Guest guest]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

But I may just point out my doubt whether you have taken into account

the shlokas 17 and 18 of ch.26 of Kapila Gita portion (which you seem

to have absorbed) which says that the Lord Himself is Time! (See

advaitin/message/28309 )And Krishna

also says (XI - 32) "kAlo'smi" (I am Time)!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Namaste ProfVK-Ji

 

I am totally convinced of this statement of Krishna in (XI -

32) "kAlo'smi" (I am Time)! and also of 10.33 where the Lord

specifically mentions that "I myself am the infinite time". The two

two points that I am trying to prove in my posts are derived from

these statements and are; (1) Time is a mental abstraction at the

cosmic level (2) We as jivas are "class instances" of the Ishvara and

have a mental abstraction of Time/Space in our minds because

we "inherit" this concept from our base class "Ishvara". These two

speculations can be stated thus:

 

1) At a cosmic (macro) level Time exists as a Lower Nature of

Ishvara: Only two natures are specified in The Gita. The Lower Nature

(7.4) and the Higher Nature (7.4) and Time, Space are Lower Natures

of Ishvara since they are mental abstraction. The mental stuff is

Sattva and this is the first product of evolution of Prakriti as the

Mahat. That the Lord is Time is stated (XI - 32) and 10.33. That Time

is a Lower Nature of the Lord is what I infer.

 

2) At the micro level the Jiva "inherits" this conception of Time :

As per Sankhya whatever is there in the macrocosm is there in the

microcosm. The microcosm (Jiva) is a small scale model of the

macrocosm hence whatever happens at the Cosmic level, happens at the

individual level too. Time/Space is the Lower nature of the Jiva. The

counterpart of Mahat is Buddhi in the Jiva. Hence the Time/Space

notion or concept resides in the Buddhi/Mind/Ego aggregate. How this

Time concept in the Cosmic mind comes to the "Local" Time concept in

Jivas mind, I tried to explain using the inheritance concept of

object-oriented programming in software:

 

In software there can be a "base" class which other (derived) classes

can inherit from. Non software readers can understand this as being

(this example being to demonstrate a "class" only and not Ishvara)

say a base "MAN" class from whom Ram, Shaym all inherit. A "MAN"

class is quite different from a "WOMAN" class or a "DOG" class etc.

 

Ishvara is the "base or ancestor" class using software terminology

out of which all the "jiva" classes are instantiated.The base class

can have "storage area" in form of variables(concept) which all

derived classes can read, write or provide their own implementation

of . Time is such a concept. There is a "Cosmic Time " in Ishvara's

mind and as we "inherit" from Ishvara we also get a copy of

the "Time" concept. Thus there is Cosmic Time that is the same for

all Jivas (hence eternal Time) but we also have "Local" times which

is our implementation of the "Cosmic" time. This explains why during

meditation time seems to stand still. It is our "local" time that

stands still whereas Cosmic Time marches on.

 

What is the point of all this analysis of Time

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As Mr. Felipe A. Scolfaro Crema pointed out in

advaitin/message/28327 it is pretty

surprising how various threads are seemingly merging together. I see

many recent topics asking the same question stated differently:

 

1) Deep Sleep

2) Goddess of Time

3) How to reconcile advaitha and reincarnation (or transmigration)?

4) The forth question is the subtle question in many of the posts-

"What is the point of this analysis?". Can we not accept that Time

is just Maya and let it at that. This is formulated by Mr. Crema

"Seeking truth to find answers is causality, and would lead only to

the answering of the questions, not

necessarily to the finding of truth."

 

Let me state my view of #4 first. If the purpose of the discussion is

just argumentation than it is true we will go about in circles. But

if there is some understanding obtained than we can tackle the

problem better as the unknown has been identified and we can now deal

with it. Time is the Past/Present/Future periods and Reincarnation

(#3) is the concept of Past/Present/and Future births. If we say Time

is Maya we can never know what to do with it as Maya is all pervasive

so how will it help us getting rid of the concept of Time (we have to

get rid of it if we are to go beyond reincarnation). Statements

like "Time the Killer" or "Time the Destroyer" though true do not

help us to tackle the problem for this is just a restatement of the

original problem. But if we understand Time as a mental concept, as

the lower nature of the Lord, the concept of which is in our mental

apparatus by virtue of us being instances of the Lord, then all we

have to do is get rid of this mental concept and past/present/future

births are also gone. Hence Reincarnation becomes a non event.

 

As stated in my post at

advaitin/message/28331.

Mahat/Buddhi/Mind Stuff is the first evolute of Prakriti so it stands

to reason that when we are tracing our steps back to the source, it

should be the last. This mental stuff is the Sattva stuff. So our

last frontier of realization is mind/buddhi/ego. I visualize this as

a computer (buddhi) hooked up to the electricity (all pervasive

Ishvara) outlet by a power chord (ego). This is the last stage.

 

To take the example of Mr Felipe A. Scolfaro Crema we have set the

computer to calculate the value of "pi" to an endless decimal value.

It is stuck in an endless loop. How do we get out of the loop?

 

Method 1: Program the computer to only calculate "pi" only up to two

decimal points. Then the calculation will not get into a loop as it

will come out after calculating up to 2 decimal places.

In this case we just need an approximation of the real value of "pi".

A limited model of the real thing. Something to help us get by in

life. The idea of Reincarnation & Jiva. This is the duelists way.

 

Method 2 : Pull out power chord (ego). This will stop the loop as the

computer with all its computational power will now stop. However

Electricity will still circulate in the power source. This

electricity is the real us.

 

The moot question is " who pulls the chord". Is it the Pursha that

will pull the power chord and disconnect the computer or is it the

ego itself. In his commentary on BG 13.2, Shankra says "the one who

has the ignorance will remove the ignorance". Now the Pursha can

never be ignorant for if he is ignorant, he is one with his ignorance

and will not know that he is ignorant. So the subject has to be

different from the object. Also the Pursha is the silent witness. It

does not do any action so again it will not pull the chord. It looks

like the Ego/Buddhi/Mind aggregate is the one that has the ignorance

and this is the aggregate that will pull the chord. Now the question

is does it have the capacity to do this task? can it operate on its

own?. Maybe it is like programming the computer to shut down itself,

without user intervention.

 

Now for all needs and purposes the ego is our self. We identify with

the ego. It is "I". We are telling "I" to kill "I-Self". This is

equivalent to contemplating suicide.

 

This brings us to the question in the Deep Sleep thread (#1) raised

by Manuel Delaflor at

advaitin/message/28182

"The fear is the fear of the ego which gets annihilated in the

awakening of the knowledge, and that is natural reaction for some .."

 

I do not have any answer to the last question I raised -"Who will

pull the power chord?". I am still struggling to get an answer to

this question and the assistance of the group in obtaining an answer

to this will be greatly appreciated.

 

With Warm Regards

Hersh

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "hersh_b" <hershbhasin@g...> wrote:

>

>.

>

> Method 2 : Pull out power chord (ego). This will stop the loop as

the

> computer with all its computational power will now stop. However

> Electricity will still circulate in the power source. This

> electricity is the real us.

>

> The moot question is " who pulls the chord". Is it the Pursha

that

> will pull the power chord and disconnect the computer or is it the

> ego itself. In his commentary on BG 13.2, Shankra says "the one

who

> has the ignorance will remove the ignorance". Now the Pursha can

> never be ignorant for if he is ignorant, he is one with his

ignorance

> and will not know that he is ignorant. So the subject has to be

> different from the object. Also the Pursha is the silent witness.

It

> does not do any action so again it will not pull the chord. It

looks

> like the Ego/Buddhi/Mind aggregate is the one that has the

ignorance

> and this is the aggregate that will pull the chord. Now the

question

> is does it have the capacity to do this task? can it operate on

its

> own?. Maybe it is like programming the computer to shut down

itself,

> without user intervention.

>

> Now for all needs and purposes the ego is our self. We identify

with

> the ego. It is "I". We are telling "I" to kill "I-Self". This is

> equivalent to contemplating suicide.

>

> This brings us to the question in the Deep Sleep thread (#1)

raised

> by Manuel Delaflor at

> advaitin/message/28182

> "The fear is the fear of the ego which gets annihilated in the

> awakening of the knowledge, and that is natural reaction for

some .."

>

> I do not have any answer to the last question I raised -"Who will

> pull the power chord?". I am still struggling to get an answer to

> this question and the assistance of the group in obtaining an

answer

> to this will be greatly appreciated.

>

> With Warm Regards

> Hersh

>

 

Namaste.

 

Your analysis seems to be correct. So Who will pull the power chord

(ego)? Good. You yourself quoted Shankara sayting that 'he who has

the ignorance will have to root out the ignorance". Yes, he who has

identified with the BMI is the 'false 'I'. This false 'I' has to

pull the chord so that his falsity disappears. All actions and

thoughts are by this false 'I'. (This is technically the kshara-

purusha of the Gita -- not the akshara-purushha ). So long as I

identify myself with the BMI I am only the false'I'. The moment

that identification stops I am no more the false 'I' but I am the

real 'I', "the tenth man"! The identification will stop only when

the false 'I', that is, the present 'I', by own volition, pulls the

power chord of the ego! Thanks, Hersh-ji, for the analogy!

 

PraNAms to all advaitins.

profvk

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "V. Krishnamurthy" <profvk>

wrote:

>

> advaitin, "hersh_b" <hershbhasin@g...> wrote:

> >

> >.

> >

> > Method 2 : Pull out power chord (ego). This will stop the loop as

> the

> > computer with all its computational power will now stop. However

> > Electricity will still circulate in the power source. This

> > electricity is the real us.

> >

> > The moot question is " who pulls the chord". Is it the Pursha

> that

> > will pull the power chord and disconnect the computer or is it

the

> > ego itself. In his commentary on BG 13.2, Shankra says "the one

> who

> > has the ignorance will remove the ignorance". Now the Pursha can

> > never be ignorant for if he is ignorant, he is one with his

> ignorance

> > and will not know that he is ignorant. So the subject has to be

> > different from the object. Also the Pursha is the silent witness.

> It

> > does not do any action so again it will not pull the chord. It

> looks

> > like the Ego/Buddhi/Mind aggregate is the one that has the

> ignorance

> > and this is the aggregate that will pull the chord. Now the

> question

> > is does it have the capacity to do this task? can it operate on

> its

> > own?. Maybe it is like programming the computer to shut down

> itself,

> > without user intervention.

> >

> > Now for all needs and purposes the ego is our self. We identify

> with

> > the ego. It is "I". We are telling "I" to kill "I-Self". This is

> > equivalent to contemplating suicide.

> >

> > This brings us to the question in the Deep Sleep thread (#1)

> raised

> > by Manuel Delaflor at

> > advaitin/message/28182

> > "The fear is the fear of the ego which gets annihilated in the

> > awakening of the knowledge, and that is natural reaction for

> some .."

> >

> > I do not have any answer to the last question I raised -"Who will

> > pull the power chord?". I am still struggling to get an answer

to

> > this question and the assistance of the group in obtaining an

> answer

> > to this will be greatly appreciated.

> >

> > With Warm Regards

> > Hersh

> >

>

> Namaste.

>

> Your analysis seems to be correct. So Who will pull the power

chord

> (ego)? Good. You yourself quoted Shankara sayting that 'he who has

> the ignorance will have to root out the ignorance". Yes, he who has

> identified with the BMI is the 'false 'I'. This false 'I' has to

> pull the chord so that his falsity disappears. All actions and

> thoughts are by this false 'I'. (This is technically the kshara-

> purusha of the Gita -- not the akshara-purushha ). So long as I

> identify myself with the BMI I am only the false'I'. The moment

> that identification stops I am no more the false 'I' but I am the

> real 'I', "the tenth man"! The identification will stop only when

> the false 'I', that is, the present 'I', by own volition, pulls

the

> power chord of the ego! Thanks, Hersh-ji, for the analogy!

>

> PraNAms to all advaitins.

> profvk

 

Namaste profvk,

 

thank you for your clear words concerning the identification with

BMI....means, about the false 'I'.

 

this false 'I' is running around....from one place to

other....from "time to time"....and so get attachments with "places

and time".....with past and future.....with a memory of many things

 

after having been attached to soo many things.....the BMI "slow down"

more and more in the "dynamic way" of..acting,thinking,...in whole

being.....

(the hard disc is full....

 

the real Self....in being formless, changless, endless.....is

endless "dynamic".....means, It don't run around like the

false 'I'......inside the limitations of mind-concepts....

 

It is....everywhere present

 

the real Self give all the constant dynamic one need to have....to

Be.....to just be oneSelf

to loose the wrong 'I' ....even...."here and now"

 

few thoughts....on the path....

 

Regards and love

 

Marc

[Guest guest]

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--- hersh_b <hershbhasin wrote:

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> But I may just point out my doubt whether you have

> taken into account

> the shlokas 17 and 18 of ch.26 of Kapila Gita

>

>

=== message truncated ===

Sankarraman

I am afraid nobody can pull the chord, neither the

impassive purusa, nor the impetuous intellect, the

finest residuum of Prakriti. It is like Jnaneswar

saying that if an individual wants to know the deep

sleep state, they will have neither the sleep nor the

waking. The only solution seems to be patient, which

J.Krishnamurthy says is free from time, whereas the

anticipation for something to happen invites time.

 

 

 

 

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