Modeling Time (MTS-4: Towards A Mathematical Theory of Spirituality Based on Advaita)

[Guest guest]

On Nov 4, 05 Benjamin writes “Time is inseparable

from the experience of it. Hence it must be particularized

by that experience, which would make Ishwara just another

Jiva….”

 

Ben:

 

In the analogy used in the paper, it is Shiva’s damaru which beats out Time. He

does not strike the damaru to the beat of anything else. Thus, the way I see

Ishwara in the scheme of things, He/She is the controller of Time. Time moves

to His/Her will. Jeevas, on the other hand, are under the control of Time, the

extent of control depending on the spiritual detachment of the jeeva. To the

extent Ishwara participates in creation, yes, It has something common with the

jeevas, but that is the extent of similarity.

 

The point about Ishwara having some “personality” is a subject we deal with in

the paper (pages 20-24). The discussions we have seen recently on “Form and

Formless” are relevant here too.

 

Hari Om!

 

- Raju Chidambaram

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Raju and Sri Ben:

 

Let me add the following clarification, on the basis of my

understanding from Bhagavad Gita. I agree with Rajuji on the point that

a Jiva can become an Isvara if he/she relinguishes the 'Doership.'

Isvara is the perfect Nondoer and the Lord spells this out this Truth

through verses 4 and 5 of chapter 9. This means that Time can't exist

without the support of Isvara and at the same time Isvara is not a part

of the Time. Jiva on the otherhand, with total ignorance incorrectly

believes that he/she controls the time. Also jiva most of the time, get

trapped under the control of time believing that he/she is the Doer

(controller of time)!

 

If Sri Ben is willing to modify his statement as, "Isvara is

the 'special jiva' who totally recognize and perform the duties as

the 'Nondoer.'

 

In chapter 18 further clarifies the question raised by Arjuna regarding

the distinction between a 'tyagi' and a 'Sanyasi.' In the very first

few verses of chapter 18, Bhagawan implies that a tyagi is the one who

renounces the fruits of action where as the sanyasi is the 'Nondoer' of

all actions! He further clarifies that tyaga (renounciation of the

fruits of action) is the sadhana by which a jiva can tranform into a

Sanyasi (Nondoer).

 

Harih Om!

 

Note: Since Benji has been attending the Falls Church's Gita Satsangh,

he may be able to recollect the above discussion regarding the

distinction between a tyagi and a sanyasi!

 

advaitin, aiyers@c... wrote:

>

> On Nov 4, 05 Benjamin writes "Time is inseparable

> from the experience of it. Hence it must be particularized

> by that experience, which would make Ishwara just another

> Jiva…."

>

> Ben:

>

Thus, the way I see Ishwara in the scheme of things, He/She is the

controller of Time. Time moves to His/Her will. Jeevas, on the other

hand, are under the control of Time, the extent of control depending on

the spiritual detachment of the jeeva.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Chittranjanji.

 

Supposing in your boat example, the experiencer was not asleep but

engrossed in some other subject – let us say melodious music in which

he drowns himself in full laya. When he comes out, he would notice

that the boat has moved farther away and will conclude that, while he

was in a state of absorption, the external world has moved forward

or, in other words, time has elapsed. Did he experience anything

here? The answer would be that he enjoyed the music, which is an

experience because it had a beginning and an end. Thus, we are

compelled to conclude that sleep is also an experience with a

beginning and end. This would apply to samAdhi too because the

samAdist enters it and comes out.

 

Sleep therefore is an experience of self-absorption – one getting

engrossed in oneself can be an explanation. In music enjoyment in

full laya, it is the subject getting fully immersed in an external

stimulus – music, whereby he becomes verily music without a separate

identity. If viewed from this point of view, sleep could be a state

where one gets fully absorbed in the happiness of muscular relaxation

whereby one becomes relaxation itself. In both experiences, however,

one has to conclude that time is very much there because of a

perceived beginning and end.

 

Further, during the peak of an experience like sleep or laya in

music, there is no awareness of the passage of time. Awareness of

time dawns only after the experience. That is time-experience and

when that occurs for howsoever short a period, other experiences are

excluded. In our twentyfour hour day, how often are we having this

time awareness? Of course, the answer varies from person to person

but to the one who is wedded to constant reflection or absorption in

his favourite vocation, actual time-awareness is very minimal. I

would venture to say that, even in utter boredom, there are islands

of solitudinal absorption when one does not have time-awareness.

This is a pointer to the fact that we are never the isolated

wretchedness that we grievously imagine ourselves to be. We are one

with everything.

 

It is true that in music enjoyment, the sense of hearing is involved

whereas in sleep enjoyment or time-awareness, no single sense

involvement can be perceived. However, we cannot fully conclude that

there is no sense-involvement in both. Time awareness dawns due to

observation of change. Change is a sensory perception. Sleep, if

viewed as relaxation of any sort whatsoever, also is sensorial. One

needs a body in the first place to fall asleep.

 

In 2002, I had visualized a hypothetical situation here about a

person placed in outer space where all the heavenly bodies are in a

state of stand-still and all his metabolic processes in a state of

suspended animation. He can see what is in front of him and feel his

heart thud. Let us suppose this person dozes off for a few hours and

wakes up his heart having pulsated several thousand times during the

period of slumber. Before he dozed off, he felt his heart thud and

when he awoke, he felt it thud again. Will he ever know that he

slept at all? With his tactile sense suspended (I foresee that you

will ask the legitimate question how did he feel his heart-beat with

the tactile sense suspended; but this is a hypothetical situation.),

he cannot have any sense of enjoyment of relaxation. I should,

therefore, assume that he will not know that he slept. All that he

has to be aware of time is the beating of his heart as no change

takes place around him. Isn't this, therefore, an example, however

hypothetical it may be, of time being very much there and yet an

event like sleep being not recognized as a blank - an experience of

not experiencing? That much to our preoccupation with sleep then.

 

All that we have therefore is awareness – Consciousness unraveling.

Time is within it just like the blank called sleep and the rest of

our experiences. We are not aware of time all the time but only

occasionally. When we are, it is time awareness like all the other

awarenesses like mango or apple-pie awareness. When the apparent

separation between the awarer and the object known is removed like

how it spontaneously happens in sleep or music laya, we realize our

status as Awareness which is always awake. All advaitic sAdhanA is

aimed at the removal of this separation through the bonding of

spontaneous love where Love is Awareness itself. Then, the knower

and the known are inexorably united in one single Whole.

 

This realization is an intuitive quantum leap. How can we ever

fashion it after a mathematical model is, therefore, my major worry

about this thread.

 

Just a few thoughts. The outpouring of exalted thoughts in this

thread made me muse for a while. I may be wrong in my analysis.

However, I don't think I am in my conclusion.

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

____________________

 

 

advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik"

<chittaranjan_naik> wrote:

>.....

> Conundrum 2:

>

> I see all these things happening around me. This change around me

is

> associated with time. This association is part of the reflexive

> mechanism of my thinking process. Now I see a boat moving slowly on

> the river. I fall into a dreamless sleep. When I wake up, I see

that

> the boat has moved far away that it is now a small speck on the

> horizon. But no time passed when I was in deep sleep because there

is

> no time in deep sleep. Therefore in no time the boat has moved far

> away, and this large displacement of the boat in space is

> incommensurate with the speed of the boat that I see when I am

awake.

> Therefore, there is some experiential discontinuity happening when

I

> go into deep sleep - on the one hand there is no time, and on the

> other hand things in space get displaced as if so much happens in

no

> time. Would the model need to incorporate space-time warps?

[Guest guest]

Namaste Nair-ji,

 

Your essay is a brilliant exposition of time. In particular, the

distinction you make between time, that is one with the plenum of

Consciousness, and time-awareness effectively captures the essence of

the paradox in which time seems to play hide and seek. I am in

agreement with you that the bane of mathematical modelling is its

predilection with measurement and model-building whereas Advaita is

the living vision of the unbounded. In my example of the boat, I was

trying to bring out the conundrum generated by the negation of time

in (the absorption of) deep-sleep, and my question regarding the

incorporation of space-time warps into the model was made somewhat

tongue-in-cheek.

 

Another thing that struck me in your essay was the resonance that it

had with the Indian theory of aesthetics (for example, dhvanyaloka

locana) wherein absorption is considered to be the merging of the

subject and the object and the pleasure of aesthetic enjoyment is the

pleasure of Self in absorption with the object in a spiritual

experience that is essentially erotic. It is the aesthetic bliss of

the union of Purusha and Prakriti when time-awareness 'stands still'.

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

 

 

 

advaitin, "Madathil Rajendran Nair"

<madathilnair> wrote:

>

> Namaste Chittranjanji.

>

> Supposing in your boat example, the experiencer was not asleep but

> engrossed in some other subject – let us say melodious music in

which

> he drowns himself in full laya. When he comes out, he would notice

> that the boat has moved farther away and will conclude that, while

he

> was in a state of absorption, the external world has moved forward

> or, in other words, time has elapsed. Did he experience anything

> here? The answer would be that he enjoyed the music, which is an

> experience because it had a beginning and an end. Thus, we are

> compelled to conclude that sleep is also an experience with a

> beginning and end. This would apply to samAdhi too because the

> samAdist enters it and comes out.

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik"

<chittaranjan_naik> wrote:

>

> Namaste Nair-ji,

>

> Your essay is a brilliant exposition of time. In particular, the

> distinction you make between time, that is one with the plenum of

> Consciousness, and time-awareness effectively captures the essence

of

> the paradox in which time seems to play hide and seek. I am in

> agreement with you that the bane of mathematical modelling is its

> predilection with measurement and model-building whereas Advaita

is

> the living vision of the unbounded.

 

Namaste,

 

As both of you are fond of poetry, here is what Milton said:

 

John Milton (1608–1674)

On Time

Fly, envious Time, till thou run out thy race,

Call on the lazy leaden-stepping hours,

Whose speed is but the heavy plummet's pace;

And glut thyself with what thy womb devours,

Which is no more than what is false and vain,

And merely mortal dross;

So little is our loss,

So little is thy gain.

For when as each thing bad thou hast intombed,

And last of all thy greedy self consumed,

Then long Eternity shall greet our bliss

With an individual kiss,

And Joy shall overtake us as a flood;

When every thing that is sincerely good

And perfectly divine,

With truth, and peace, and love, shall ever shine

About the supreme throne

Of Him, t' whose happy-making sight alone

When once our heav'nly-guided soul shall climb,

Then, all this earthly grossness quit,

Attired with stars, we shall for ever sit,

Triumphing over Death, and Chance, and thee, O Time.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

--- Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh wrote:

> advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik"

>

> <chittaranjan_naik> wrote:

> >

> > Namaste Nair-ji,

> >

> > Your essay is a brilliant exposition of time. In

> particular, the

> > distinction you make between time, that is one

> with the plenum of

> > Consciousness, and time-awareness effectively

> captures the essence

> of

> > the paradox in which time seems to play hide and

> seek. I am in

> > agreement with you that the bane of mathematical

> modelling is its

> > predilection with measurement and model-building

> whereas Advaita

> is

> > the living vision of the unbounded.

>

> Namaste,

>

> As both of you are fond of poetry, here is

> what Milton said:

>

> Apropos the above message, Sankarramn wants to say

that the respondent has quoted a soul-stirring poem by

Milton, which I have enjoyed reading very much. As

regards the reality of time Jiddu Krishnamurthy has

very much clarified regarding the propriety of time in

our lives by making a seminal statement to the effect

that the psychological time involving the illusory

idividuality as becoming, is unreal, but that the time

of the Sun is alone real. Being averse to traditional

thoughts, Krishnamurthy has left aside the question of

the reality or unreality of the physical time. A man

living in this world void of psychological time, I

think, is in a state of Savikalpa Samadhi, living

always in, "Choiceless Awareness".

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Shri Sankarramanji.

 

In the first place, I am baffled why your post has appeared in the

reported speech.

 

Secondly, you need to elaborate on JK's point of view as a

traditional advaitin would like to go by the following parameters:

 

1. What is the time of the Sun? Do you mean solar time measured

with reference to the apparent movement of the Sun, sunrise to

sunrise constituting one day?

 

2. In vedanta, unreal means that which has no existence. The

examples given are the son of a barren woman and horns of the

rabbit. The experienced world is mithyA (you can translate it as non-

real to show that it is neither real nor unreal). Everything

including the Sun, Moon and other heavenly bodies are mithyA. Solar

time and psychological time are no exceptions.

 

3. The real is the only one unchanging reality (satyA)that pervades

the whole of changeful mithyA and that is the central point of

advaita. By saying that the time of the Sun, whatever that is, is

real, JK has perhaps raised it to the status of satya, and that is

not acceptable to an advaitin. Or, has JK been misquoted? Or, is it

all a case of terminology misunderstood or misused? Any way, we

ought to have an accepted terminology to pursue fruitful discussions.

 

4. Mostly, all men are in fact living in this world void of

psychological time as they have, during most part of their normal

activities, no time-awareness. Time-awareness appears only now and

then like an annoying pop-up on a web-page. No harm if you

sardonically call their state savikalpa samAdhi. But, the pity is

that they are not prepared to acknowledge this truth and that is the

main reason, in my opinion, for all their confusion. Once they

acknowledge this, they have taken their the first step on the path to

true realization.

 

Sunderji, thanks for the Milton quote. I wouldn't claim that I

enjoyed it as Milton has always been beyond me. No time for lost

paradises in a world that Advaita teaches is paradise misunderstood!

 

PraNAms.

 

Madathil Nair

______________

 

advaitin, Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran>

wrote:

> > Apropos the above message, Sankarramn wants to say

> that the respondent has quoted a soul-stirring poem by

> Milton, which I have enjoyed reading very much. As

> regards the reality of time Jiddu Krishnamurthy has

> very much clarified regarding the propriety of time in

> our lives by making a seminal statement to the effect

> that the psychological time involving the illusory

> idividuality as becoming, is unreal, but that the time

> of the Sun is alone real. Being averse to traditional

> thoughts, Krishnamurthy has left aside the question of

> the reality or unreality of the physical time. A man

> living in this world void of psychological time, I

> think, is in a state of Savikalpa Samadhi, living

> always in, "Choiceless Awareness".

> Sankarraman

[Guest guest]

Namaste Advaitins

 

The following link describing Swami Vivekananda and Scientist Nichola

Tesla's discussion on the Concept of Macrocosmic Time or Kalpa might

be of interest:

 

http://www.iitkgp.ac.in/ejics/issue1/time-joy.htm

 

This discussion is from a Letter written by Swamiji to Mr. Sturdy

from 228 W. 39th Street, New York City. The letter is re-mentioned in

Master as I saw Him, by Sister Nivedita; Chapter 14 (on death), pg

303-5.

 

Letter to E.T. Sturdy available at :

http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/vivekananda/complete_works.htm

Look under :Volume 5/ Epistles-First Series/LVII Blessed & Beloved

or do a search on "Tesla" at the web site.

 

Other links about this are:

 

http://www.uncletaz.com/library/scimath/tesla/vedictesl.html

http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org/magazine/vk/2005/6-3-2.asp

 

Thanks

Hersh

[Guest guest]

Namaste all

 

Two profound articles by John Dobson might be of interest to the group

 

The Equations of Maya

http://www.johndobson.org/articles/equations.html

 

Einstein's Physics Of Illusion

http://www.johndobson.org/articles/physics.html

 

Thanks

Hersh

[Guest guest]

--- Madathil Rajendran Nair <madathilnair

wrote:

> Namaste Shri Sankarramanji.

>

> In the first place, I am baffled why your post has

> appeared in the

> reported speech.

>

> Secondly, you need to elaborate on JK's point of

> view as a

> traditional advaitin would like to go by the

> following parameters:

>

> 1. What is the time of the Sun? Do you mean solar

> time measured

> with reference to the apparent movement of the Sun,

> sunrise to

> sunrise constituting one day?

>

>Dear Madathil Rajendran Nairji,

I am not able to

appreciate your thought that most of the people live

only void of psychological time, and that it arises

ony in a pop-up now and then, and that on that score

they might be sardonically treated on par with those

in Savikalpa Samadhi. What you say is synonymous with

inconscience, to use the terminology of Sri Aurobindo.

No doubt, there are bound to be terminological

inexacttude in conveying spiritual matters, each one

being conditioned in a particular way. J.K's

accepatance of the time of the Sun, I believe, is only

on account of the fact that he does not want to

indulge in philosophical speculations, and that he is

averse to repeat the existing terminologies. I also am

not absolutely sure of the validity of K's position in

this regard, which I have communicated in this forum,

my thoughts revolving around the idea as to how when

you accept the empirical reality of the world, you

could be free from its clutches at the mental level,

without dissolving the basic cognitive error, K's

position falling short of philosophical completeness

on this score, as we cannot dichotomise life as body

and mind, in such a dichotomy there being the

inevitable fact of physcial things constaltly

insinuating into the realm of the psyche thereby

creating an individuality, surely a bondage. This

question has been raging in my mind. But since the

jivanmukta traffics in the world like the bound ones,

but is inwardly free from the onslaughts of such a

world, the psychological freedom from the selfhood

pointed out by J.K appeals to me very much, and on

that score I have attempted to equate it with

Savikalpa Samadhi, as it were. J.K himself in a

discussion had with David Bohm accepts the reality of

a transcendental realm constituting the common source

for matter, thought and intelligence( Awakening of

Intelligence). As Sri Ramakrishna says that there are

as many paths as there are as many individuals. Please

do not read much into my way of addressing which is

only for some convenience.

Yours Ever in Bhaghavan Ramana

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

 

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