Relatioship between Saguna Brahman and Jiva

November 22, 2005

>From my understanding of Advaita, Saguna Brahman is Brahman associated

with "Maya" upadhi and Jiva is Brahman associated with "Avidya"

upadhi. I have the following question

How does Jiva relate to Saguna Brahman? Is Jiva a "part of"

or "different" from Saguna Brahman? I'am talking purely from empirical

standpoint.

Thanks & regards

Partha

November 22, 2005

parthasarathy_sastry <parthasarathy_sastry wrote:

From my understanding of Advaita, Saguna Brahman is Brahman associated

with "Maya" upadhi and Jiva is Brahman associated with "Avidya"

upadhi. I have the following question

How does Jiva relate to Saguna Brahman? Is Jiva a "part of"

or "different" from Saguna Brahman? I'am talking purely from empirical

standpoint.

Thanks & regards

Partha

In so far as I understand-I am not well-versed in traditional Sankara

Vedanta- empirically the jiva is different from Iswara, the Saguna Brahman.

But, shorn of their upadhis, the jiva its upadhi of passing through the three

conditioned states of waking, dream and deep-sleep, and being ensconsed in the

five sheaths, and the Iswara carrying the authorship of the world- these two

limitaions belonging to the realm of avidya- there is only one Being, the

Atman, rest of the things being mere illusions. This is revealed through the

Mahavakya, "Tatvam Asi", around which there is a lot of scholastic, grammitical

and intellectual verbiage, which, I think serves only the purpose of the

scholars in their pastime, not being relevant to the seekers of the truth

behind the phenomena. Empirically, there is duality; but transcendentally

there has to be none; otherwise there is no escape from the bondage for the

individuals. Freedom from the clutches of samsara-from psychological

existence to use a meaningful and practical language, the other approaches

leading us to the devious debates of duality, non-duality and qualified

non-duality, surely the avocation of the philosophical pedagogues-is alone the

summum bonum life. Our intellectual capacity to dilate upon the different

sastras would only bolster up our ego. Bhaghavan Ramana seems to have said that

fortunately for him that he was naturally free from this vasana, which he has

very much abjured. Soren Kierkegaard, the great Christian existentialist

says, “ The present

condition of the world is diseased. If I were a doctor and was asked for my

advise, I should answer, Create silence, bring men to silence-the word of God

cannot be heard today. And if it is blazoned forth with all the panoply of

noise so that it can he heard in the midst of all other noise, then it is no

longer the word of God. Therefore, create silence”.

yours ever in Bhaghavan Ramana

Sankarraman

Visit your group "advaitin" on the web.

advaitin

FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.

November 23, 2005

Vedanta- empirically the jiva is different from Iswara, the Saguna

Brahman. But, shorn of their upadhis, the jiva its upadhi of passing

through the three conditioned states of waking, dream and deep-sleep, and

being ensconsed in the five sheaths, and the Iswara carrying the

authorship of the world- these two limitaions belonging to the realm of

avidya- there is only one Being, the Atman, rest of the things being mere

illusions.

praNAms

Hare krishna

Yes, in transactional reality, we have the difference among Ishwara,

jIva, jagat etc. etc. just like in duality school. That is the reason why

upAsana towards Ishta dEvata holds sway in our sAdhana mArga wherein being

jIva-s we do worship our ishta dEvata & declare that his/her auspicious

name & form is one & all !!! strict adherence to shishtAchAra,

dharmAcharaNa as enshrined in dharma shAstra-s is what is needed *to

achieve* the desired goal (like sAkshAtkAra, sArupya, sAyujya mukti etc.

etc.) in this path. Most of the people (that is including me...my Ishta

dEvata-s are Sri Krishna paramAtma & Sri rAghavEdra mahAswamigal of

maNtrAlayaM..a South Indian mAdhva saMpradAya saNyAsin who has written

volumes against avaita vEdAnta : - ))..are the followers of this spiritual

path though they call themselves as *advaitins*!! This is called

*vaidika vyavahAra* It definitely has its validity & efficacy in its own

realm....

But we cannot stop there & conclude that that's it nothing more than it.

Being followers of shankara bhagavadpAda's shrutyukta non-dual philosophy,

we have to contemplate on what our Acharya ultimately offers us as a

siddhAnta with regard to parabrahman, Ishvara, jIva & jagat & their

differences/similarities/relationship etc. etc. . This jignAsa falls

under the category of brahma jignAsa. This is not dharma jignAsa where

aspirant has sentimental & subjective relationship with his/her ishta

dEvata....& eccentrically hops when anything said against his/her belief

system !!! this is brahma jignAsa where nitya anittya / Atma anAtma

vastu vivEka holds the key as against our faith & conviction in our

deity's omnipotence. We have to be entirely objective & analytical in our

approach when doing this brahma jignAsa & be prepared for any eventuality

that may ruin our fundamental belief!! . Yes, it is in that

eventuality advaita presents us some startling statements against

Ishvara/saguNa brahman. Ofcourse, I do agree that being entangled in

vaidika vyavahAra, it is hard for us to digest the fact that Ishwara

(our IshtadEvata) & his/her names & forms are real ONLY in avidyA

vyavahAra. It is also a hard core reality in advaita (sorry, in

shankara's advaita vEdAnta) Ishvara & his all divine qualities like

omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence etc. etc. only in the realm of

avidyA...and....unfortunately, for us (upAsaka-s) it is very hard to take

it that Ishwara is meant in advaita only to accommodate manda & madhya

adhikAri-s those who cannot rise to the level of highest reality i.e.

parabrahman is ultimately nirguNa, nirAkAra, nirvikAri, niravayava,

avyAchya, avyakta, apramEya & aparOksha!!

Shall we...atleast say, since shankara talks about both saguNa & nirguNa

contextually, we can hold both are true ultimately!! NO...shankara's

emphatic answer roars on our ears...he categorically asserts that whenever

there is a conflict & controversies in reconciliation between saguNa &

nirguNa & siddhAnta pratipAdana ..we must have to stick to ultimate

reality of nirguNatva of brahman ONLY and not names, forms & attributes of

saguNa brahman or Ishwara...(ref. vide sUtra bhAshya)

We cannot say these are all shankara's contextual pushover statements &

concoct our own theories just to withstand & tackle the onslaught of other

rivalry schools (I dont know how far schools like dvaita & v.advaita can

deserved to be called like that!!) ....these are all the ultimatum issued

by our bhagavadpAda while presenting his siddhAnta of non-duality. Being

vaidiks we have only three options : (a) Live with what shankara/shruti

has given us as siddhAnta (b) or leave the advaita/shruti & take

something else © or fabricate our own siddhAnta in the name of advaita

which can successfully counter the arguments of duality schools & pacify

our logically conditioned minds...

I'd like to opt for the option (a) as I am not studying vEdAnta just to

refute dvaita or justify advaita against dvaitin's objections....

Just few thoughts from krishna's servant's, servent's servent.

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

November 23, 2005

Namaste Sri Parthasarthy:

>From the empirical standpoint, Jiva represents the microcosm and

Isvara the macrocosm. By profession, I am an economist and in

economics contain two major components – microeconomics and

macroeconomics. In simple terms, the microeconomics analyses

individual behavior and macroeconomics analyses the aggregate

behavior. Any change at the micro level gets reflected at the macro

level and vice-versa. Often the thought arises on the necessity for

separating economics into two parts – Do we really need this

distinction? The answer is quite simple – the empirical analysis and

understanding of how the economy is behaving, the notions of micro

and macro economics are found to be quite useful. Similar is the

situation with respect to the notions of Jiva and Isvara – they are

quite helpful for us to grasp our understanding of the universe and

where we all stand with respect to the nature.

Just like the illusionary birth/death cycle of jiva, the birth/death

cycle of the universe (Isvara) also takes place. In Bhagavad Gita,

chapter 9 verses 4 and 5 Bhagawan Sri Krishna beautifully describes

the manifested and unmanifested nature of the Brahman. Here are some

additional explanations along with their sources:

Encyclopedia Brittanica: Historical development of Indian philosophy -

The principles underlying macrocosm and microcosm

Though the objective and the subjective, the macrocosm (universal)

and the microcosm (individual), came to be identified according to

their true essences, attempts were made to correlate different

macrocosmic principles with corresponding microcosmic principles. The

manifested cosmos was correlated with the bodily self; the soul of

the world, or Hiranyagarbha, with the vital self; and Isvara, or God

as a self-conscious being, with the thinking self. The transcendent

self and the Brahman as bliss are not correlates but rather are

identical.

-------------------

The Web page of the Vedanta Society on Cosmology:

http://www.vedanta-newyork.org/cosmology.htm

"This idea of a periodically expanding and contracting universe,

which involves a scale of time and space of vast proportions, has

arisen not only in modern cosmology, but also in ancient Indian

mythology. Experiencing the universe as an organic and rhythmically

moving cosmos, the Hindus were able to develop evolutionary

cosmologies which come very close to our modern scientific models.

One of these cosmologies is based on the Hindu myth of lila---the

divine play---in which Brahman transforms himself into the world.

Lila is a rhythmic play which goes on in endless cycles, the One

becoming the many and the many returning into the One." (The Tao of

Physics by Fritjof Capra, p. 198)

"The Hindu religion is the only one of the world's great faiths

dedicated to the idea that the Cosmos itself undergoes an immense,

indeed an infinite, number of deaths and rebirths. It is the only

religion in which time scales correspond, no doubt by accident, to

those of modern scientific cosmology. Its cycles run from our

ordinary day and night to a day and night of Brahma, 8.64 billion

years long, longer than the age of the Earth or the Sun and about

half the time since the Big Bang. And there are much longer time

scale still." (Cosmos, by Carl Sagan, p. 258)

------

Let me once again repeat the importance of studying and understanding

Bhagavad Gita to get the Vedantic concepts clear and sound. The

entire Gita explains the principle of Tat Tvam Asi (That It Is). The

first six chapters of Bhagavad Gita explains `Tvam (Jivatma),'

chapters 7 to 12 describes Tat (Isvaratma) and chapters 13 to 18

provide the explanation for the equality. The entire topic is rather

complex and analogies and words can take us for some distance. But

the rest of our understanding has to come from contemplation and

practicing what we learnt!

Harih Om!

Ram Chandran

advaitin, "parthasarathy_sastry"

<parthasarathy_sastry> wrote:

>

> How does Jiva relate to Saguna Brahman? Is Jiva a "part of"

> or "different" from Saguna Brahman? I'am talking purely from

> empirical standpoint.

November 23, 2005

bhaskar.yr wrote:

praNAms

Hare krishna

Ofcourse, I do agree that being entangled in