Advaita and the history of Bharata

[Guest guest]

Chittaranjanji wrote:

 

If one goes deeper into the backgrounds of William Jones and Max

Mueller, one finds that there were strange dissonances in their

hearts. One the one hand they were truly impressed with the Indian

scriptures, and on the other hand, the religion of the Church was

gnawing at their minds. Today we have the letters that these great

men of Europe wrote, and it is easy to see that both William Jones

and Max Mueller were motivated by the 'spirit of the Church' to bring

Christianity (read 'religion of the Church') to this heathen land.

Had it not been for Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa and Swami

Vivekananda, the seeds planted by these Indologists would perhaps

have succeeded in making this country into a Christian land. But

there were more things working below the surface of this world than

meets the mortal eye.

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Namaste Chittaranjanji,

Having the uninvidious job of

being your fact checker I am glad that you are low on specifics in this

post, however, addressing its generalities I think it is merely an

accident of history as to who is the imperial bully boy because everyone

thinks that their system is best even the gentle Hindu. A previous post

redirected from another list demonises meat eaters who happen to be most

of the dwellers on this planet. It is up to the individual today to demur

or accept what is proffered and when Mormon or Jehovah Witness

missionaries come to my door I always say politely ?I am happy with what I

have, thank you very much?.

 

As a native of a post-imperial country can I say that it is absolutely

pointless to dwell on the past, it draws energy away from the present

moment where our present problems beset us. Such ranting has been the

strategy of right wing fascist groups who rave about unfinished

historical business and use the uncertainty and insecurity of modern

times to further their own agenda. As the Americans say: Get over it!

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Michaelji,

 

-- In advaitin, ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva@e...> wrote:

>

> Namaste Chittaranjanji,

> Having the uninvidious job of being your fact checker I am glad

> that you are low on specifics in this post, however, addressing

> its generalities I think it is merely an accident of history as

> to who is the imperial bully boy because everyone thinks that

> their system is best even the gentle Hindu.

 

 

You would be doing a better service to truth if you were to ask the

historians to give us the specifics regarding the construction of

Indian history. In particular, I would like to know the specifics

regarding the evidences used by them to derive the date of

Chandragupta Maurya starting from the following four names mentioned

in the 'Indica' of Megasthenes: Erranaboas, Palibothra, Ganges and

Sandracottus. I believe I have sufficient reason to be indignant at

the lack of evidence for the historical construct they came up with,

and which they have the audacity to call 'history'. I may be only

a 'native' according to Sir William Jones, but I am not an idiot.

 

But you ask me for the specifics regarding what I said in my previous

post - about the 'spirit of the Church' that gnawed at the minds of

Jones and Max Mueller. Here below are the specifics:

 

 

THE SPECIFICS THAT YOU ASKED FOR

 

A. WILLIAM JONES

>From the Asiatic Researches Vol 1, Published 1979

 

First extract:

 

"As to the general extension of our pure faith in Hindustan there are

at present many sad obstacles to it…. We may assure ourselves, that…

Hindus will never be converted by any mission from the church of

Rome, or from any other church; and the only human mode, perhaps, of

causing so great a revolution, will be translate into Sanscrit…. such

chapters of the Prophets, particularly of Isiah, as are indisputably

evangelical, together with one of the gospels, and a plain prefatory

discourse, containing full evidence of the very distant ages, in

which the predictions themselves, and the history of the Divine

Person (Jesus) predicted, were severally made public; and then

quietly to disperse the work among the well-educated natives."

 

Question: Why does the historian want to disperse the chapters of the

Bible among the well-educated natives – and quietly at that?

 

 

Second extract:

 

"It is my design, in this Essay, to point out such a resemblance

between the popular worship of the old Greeks and Italians, and that

of the Hindus."

 

Question: Why does the historian have prior designs other than

getting to the truth of the matter?

 

 

Third extract:

 

"Rama and Crishna, must now be introduced, and their several

attributes distinctly explained. The first of them, I believe, was

the Dionysos of the Greeks."

 

Question: Why does the historian want to introduce Rama and krishna

in accordance with a prior design?

 

 

Fourth extract:

 

"The first poet of the Hindus was the great Valmic, and his Ramayan

is an Epick Poem…. Comparison of the two poems (the Dionysus and the

Ramayan) would prove Dionysus and Rama to have been the same person;

and I incline to think, that he was Rama, the son of Cush, who might

have established the first regular government in this part of Asia."

 

Question 1: Had William Jones even read the Ramayana? Rama was the

father of Kusha, not his son.

 

Question 2: And what kind of historical method is this that is

produced by Jones to 'prove' that Rama and Dionysus were the same?

 

 

Fifth extract:

 

"This epitome of the first Indian History…. Though whimsically

dressed up in the form of allegory, seem to prove a primeval

tradition of this country of the universal deluge described by Moses,

and fixes consequently the time when the genuine Hindu Chronology

actually begins."

 

Question: Why use the Bible to fix the Chronology of the Hindus? Why

not use the chronology of the Hindu Scriptures to fix the chronology

of the Bible? The Hindu scriptures have dates; the Bible does not.

Does it have something to do with the Hindus being natives? Or does

it have something to do with prior design?

 

 

B. MAX MUELLER

 

Let us now move over to Max Mueller. I don't even have to ask

questions here; Max Mueller's words speak loud by themselves.

 

(All letters published in 1976 in USA)

 

 

First letter: Written to Chevalier Bunsen, Oxford, 1856

 

"India is much riper for Christianity than Rome or Greece were at the

time of St.Paul. The rotten tree has for some time had artificial

supports... For the good of this struggle I should like to lay down

my life, or at least to lend my hand to bring about this struggle.

Dhulip Singh is much at Court, and is evidently destined to play a

political part in India."

 

"I should like to live for ten years quite quietly and learn the

language, try to make friends, and then see whether I was fit to take

part in a work, by means of which the old mischief of Indian

priestcraft could be overthrown and the way opened for the entrance

of simple Christian teaching…. Whatever finds root in India soon

overshadows the whole of Asia."

 

 

Second Letter: Written to Dr.Milman, the Dean of St.Paul's,

Bournemouth, 1867

 

"I have myself the strongest belief in the growth of Christianity in

India. There is no country so ripe for Christianity as India, and yet

the difficulties seem enormous."

 

 

Third Letter: Written to his wife, Oxford, 1867

 

"..I feel convinced, though I shall not live to see it, that this

edition of mine and the translation of the Veda will hereafter tell

to a great extent on the fate of India, and on the growth of millions

of souls in that country. It is the root of their religion, and to

show them what their root is, I feel sure, the only way of uprooting

all that has sprung from it during the last 3000 years."

 

 

Letter written to the Duke of Argyll, Oxford, 1868

 

"India has been conquered once, but India must be conquered again,

and that second conquest should be a conquest by education. Much has

been done for education of late, but if funds were tripled and

quadrupled, that would hardly be enough…. A new national literature

may spring up, impregnated with western ideas, yet retaining its

native spirit and character….. A new national literature will bring

with it a new national life, and new moral vigour. As to religion,

that will take care of itself. The missionaries have done far more

than they themselves seem to be aware of."

 

"The ancient religion of India is doomed, and if Christianity does

not step in, whose fault will it be?"

 

 

ON INDIAN HISTORY

 

There has been an impression created by the Western Academy that

Indians have no sense of history. This is not true. Indians have

always had a way of recording history. It is the arrogance of the

Indologists that they have not recognised it or wilfully ignored it.

But the European historians nevertheless used the history written by

the Indians. Let me tell you a story. I was once trying to obtain the

historical details of a place called Alibag, a small town in Western

India, when I came across a Gazette on Colaba District (the district

in which Alibag is located) published by the British Government when

it was governing India. Do you know what I found in it? There is

small coastal village adjoining Alibag called 'Chaul'. I had often

passed through this village and had hardly given it a second glance.

It is an inconspicuous place with a few temples and some mud houses

and a population of perhaps not more than a thousand. Much to my

surprise, the Gazette informed me that great naval battles had once

been fought here between the French and the Portugese. This was quite

a revelation, but what came next was even more so. Chaul was once a

centre for trade, it said, and for more than a thousand years before

the British came to India, it was a place where the Chinese traders

used to come with silk and other goods, and then these goods were

dispersed to various parts of India and the world. And next came an

astonishing fact. The Gazette said that Chaul was once host to a

great convention, and among the invitees to the convention was none

other than Ptolemy.

 

Now the question that naturally comes to mind is: Where did the

British Government get this information from if the 'natives' had no

sense of history and had not kept historical records? No, Michaelji,

the natives did have a history, and the history of a place was

recorded and it was called 'sthala purana'. The British Government

collected these manuscripts, which were mostly written on leaves

(bhoj patra), and much of it was stored in the East India Company and

Asiatic Society Libraries. We do not know where the originals are

today. Still, one occasionally comes across the native sthala puranas

even today when one visits distant places. The stahala puranas

usually begin with the divinities that are supposed to have come to

the place, but they also contain the accounts of dynasties, of the

kings that built the towns or reconstructed the place and the major

events that happened there.

 

If you had been born in India as a Hindu, Michaelji, you would

perhaps know what it means when I say that Indian history speaks

everywhere that you go in this country. Indians had an historical

sense. India has always had a historical record. It had maintained

chronological dates, and some of it exists even today. The picture

painted by Hegel and the Indologists is not true. These are not

simply my words. Please read the following extract taken from the

book "Hiouen-Thsang in India" by Barthelemy Saint-Hilaire and

trabslated by Laura Ensor:

 

"And judging from the frequent quotations that Hiouen-Thsang makes

from the Sanskrit Memoirs he made use of and under his eyes – for he

often translates them word for word – it seems certain that these

Memoirs bore little resemblance to the Mahavansa written in Pali,

which Turnour has given us, nor the Rajataranjini, which we owe to

Troyer. We must therefore conclude, that in the seventh century after

Christ, at the time when the Chinese pilgrim travelled all over

India, there were to be found in Sanskrit literature works which

described more or less faithfully the history, statistics, and

geography of the country; more of which have come down to us. This is

doubtless a very unexpected and curious discovery, but it is no less

a fact. As Hiouen-Thsang found writings of this kind all over India

from the northern kingdom of Kutch down to Magadha, where he remained

many years, in order thoroughly to study them, it is evident that

these works were very numerous and well-known. The names Hiouen-

Thsang gives them are various; sometimes he calls them Ancient

Descriptions, sometimes Historical Memoirs, sometimes Collection of

Annals and Royal Edicts; at other times Secular Histories, or simply

Indian Books on such or such a country or Memoirs of India, etc.

Hoiuen-Thsang did not confine himself to these indications, already

very exact; he does not even confine himself to the quotations he

gives from the Sanskrit books; he also tells us the source of these

valuable books and their official origin. In a general description of

India, which fills the best of the second book of the Si-yu-ki, and

which may be considered an excellent introduction to all that

follows, Hiouen-Thsang is careful to tell us, in a chapter devoted to

literature, that `special functionaries were generally appointed in

India to take down in writing any remarkable speech; and that others

had the mission of writing down an account of any events that took

place.' Then he adds" `The collection of annals and royal edicts is

called Nilaflta. Good and evil are both recorded, as well as

calamities or happy omens.'"

 

"It is therefore, certain that India possessed in the days of hiouen-

Thsang, and even long before his time, a long number of historical

works, full of details, analogous in a certain measure to those

which, since the famous days of Greece, have continued to be drawn up

by all the nations of civilised Europe. It must be admitted, while

recognising the value of these annals, that judging even from Hiouen-

Thsang's quotations, the natives of India had a peculiar method of

understanding and writing history. India has never had a Herodotus, a

Thucydides, a Polybius, a Titus-Livy, a Tacitus, or a Machiavelli It

had, however, its original historians, whoever they may have been;

and this fact can no longer be denied. It would, therefore, seem that

it is a hasty assertion to say that Indian genius had no knowledge of

history; and that in its constant preoccupation about the absolute

and infinite, it had never thought of noting the lapse of time, nor

of recording in any lasting manner the events that were taking place.

India felt the need like the rest of humanity, and tried to satisfy

it in the best way it could; and Hiouen-Thsang's testimony, although

it stands almost alone, is perfectly undeniable on this subject. His

proofs are too constantly repeated, and he relies on too many

different authorities, for his credibility to be doubted for an

instant."

 

Barthelomy says that Hiouen-Thsang's testimony is almost alone. Yes,

they are alone today because most of the manuscripts were collected

by the British. Do they still exist? I don't know. But one thing you

may do is ask any Hindu in this group, and they will tell you that in

India almost every family used to preserve its history. They might

have been written on bhoj-patra or on copper plates, but they were

preserved for centuries. Indians have a sense of history. The

Indologists had a sense of arrogance.

 

> As a native of a post-imperial country can I say that it is

> absolutely pointless to dwell on the past, it draws energy

> away from the present moment where our present problems beset

> us.

 

The academy is now cooking for the future based on the distorted

history that it cooked in the past. Shall we be mute spactators to it

all?

> Such ranting has been the strategy of right wing fascist

> groups who rave about unfinished historical business and

> use the uncertainty and insecurity of modern times to

> further their own agenda. As the Americans say: Get over

> it!

 

It suits the Americans to say it. It does not suit the Indian to say

it. Labelling an effort to find the truth as 'right wing fascist

agenda' does not help to establish what the truth is. But the seeker

of truth must be prepared to carry the burden of being labelled.

Labelling is infact the favourite weapon that the American Academy

uses against those who question its authority. :-)

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

Michaelji and Chittranjanji

>If you had been born in India as a Hindu, Michaelji, you would

>perhaps know what it means when I say that Indian history speaks

>everywhere that you go in this country. Indians had an historical

>sense. India has always had a historical record. It had maintained

>chronological dates, and some of it exists even today. The picture

>painted by Hegel and the Indologists is not true. These are not

>simply my words. Please read the following extract taken from the

>book "Hiouen-Thsang in India" by Barthelemy Saint-Hilaire and

>trabslated by Laura Ensor:

 

 

To me the marvel of Indian record keeping is at our holy places like

Haridwar where we take our dead relatives ashes for immersion. This

was brought to light when I took my late fathers ashes to Haridwar.

As soon as you get to Haridwar with the ashes some pundit will come

from nowhere and ask your Gotra and as if by magic a priest that is

associated with your family for many generations in the past will

come up to you and take you to his place. Now keep in mind that this

place is teeming with humanity and there are about two people

standing on one foot area and in this mass of humanity it takes an

instant to locate your family priest - whose existence you were

unaware of till this moment.This priests family line has been

existing in parallel with your family line for ages. Uncanny!!. In

his residence this pundit has many thousands of rolls of paper and in

three minutes flat he will bring out the roll for your family. Now

this is a real triumph of record-keeping. On this roll you will find,

in your ancestors own hand writing comments they had written when

they had brought their dear departed ones for immersion. It brought

tears to my eyes when I read in my dead fathers own hand the comments

he had written when he had brought his mothers ashes for immersion. I

traced back my family tree by reading the comments of my ancestors

many generations apart. I learnt that these pundits use a special ink

which is a well guarded secret. I can vouch that the ink was not

faded and the scrolls were not falling apart. After this I can never

say that Indians do not care for History.

 

Warm Regards

Hersh

[Guest guest]

Hari OM!

 

Great posting Chittranjanji,

 

As Swami Chinmayanandaji says, "YOU CHANGE THEN THE WORLD AROUND US CHANGES

AUTOMATICALLY"

 

As Swamiji said, his work will see light after 30 years after his Samadhi.

 

But Conversion in India is really a serious matter, Evangalising India

should be stopped, if we need

to change the constitution for that let us change.

 

A friend of mine out in Chennai said that she will marry only a born again

Christian, the reason being

her prayers are answered and she want to change the religion. By, money,

Brain wash and in the name of prayer they do all that, We in India respect

all the traditions, let each tradition continue as it is there is

no harm but conversion is not at all agreeable. Evangalisation of Bharat

should be stopped at any cost

 

With Love & OM!

 

Krishna Prasad

 

 

 

"The answer to all these questions is rooted in one simple fact – the

fact that we Hindus have forsaken our dharma. We are caught today in

the gale of a storm and it tosses us about in all directions. The

whirl of the storm is not outside us; it is within us, created by the

emptiness in us lets in whatever lies in the vicinity, be they gems

or be they garbage."

 

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Krishna Prasad

 

"Do not imagine your sincerity in work, But work Sincerely with your

imagination.

 

Brahmacharya at Body level, Ahimsa at the Mental level and

Satyam at the Intellectual level should be practiced.

 

The benefits of these are plenty. May it be a material career or a spiritual

one,

these values lead man to supreme success in the chosen field. ' --Swami

Chinmayanada

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

advaitin, Krishna Prasad <rkrishp99@g...> wrote:

>

> Hari OM!

>

> Great posting Chittranjanji,

>

> As Swami Chinmayanandaji says, "YOU CHANGE THEN THE WORLD AROUND US

CHANGES

> AUTOMATICALLY"

 

Namaste,

 

With regard to all religions and adherents of same. If you lose

members nothing is lost, for they weren't really believing members in

the first place..........ONS..Tony

[Guest guest]

Hari OM!

 

You cannot blame people for that, It is the clergy, the church who is

responsible for that, what is the reason for conversion???? Selfishness

nothing else,

 

why the conversion at all, Christianity has wiped out lot of good cultures.

good traditions, because of simple reason that they feel insecure being

minority in the world, and to do busniess. that is not at all good. Did any

other religious leader other than Pope or some islamic leaders, have Bullet

proof protection??? Why a religious leader should be behind Bullet Proof???

 

Read SWAMI DAYANADAJI'S ARTCILE below and it is an open letter to POPE while

he visited India

 

Quote:

 

Your Holiness,

 

On behalf of many Hindus whom I know personally, I welcome your visit to

Bharat. This is a country with an ancient civilisation and unique religious

culture which accommodates many religious traditions that have come to this

country throughout the centuries.

 

Being the head of the Vatican State and also the Catholic Church with a

great following all over the world, you enjoy a highly venerable position

and can play a significant role in defusing religious conflicts and

preserving the world's rich cultures. You have in your Apostolic Letter

tertio millennio adveniente, 38 (November 10, 1994) voiced your intention to

convoke a Special Assembly of the Synod of Bishops for Asia. After seeing

the report of the Pre-Council of the General Secretariat of the Synod of

Bishops Special Assembly for Asia appointed by you, I want to bring to your

kind notice the concerns of many Hindus in this country about religious

conversion. In the Second Vatican Council, the status accorded to the world

religions was that of a means of preparing them for Christ. We all

understand that the Catholic religion does not accommodate other religions,

except in this context. But I am appealing to you here to accept that every

person has the freedom to pursue his or her own religion.

 

In the recent past, you mentioned that reason should be respected. On the

basis of reason, no non-verifiable belief is going to fare any better than

any other non-verifiable belief. Therefore, according to reason, there is no

basis for conversion in matters of faith.

 

Apart from reason, there is another important issue which I request you to

consider. Among the world's religious traditions, there are those that

convert and those that do not. The non-converting religious traditions, like

the Hindu, Jewish and Zoroastrian, give others the freedom to practise their

religion whether they agree with the others' tenets or not. They do not wish

to convert. I would characterise them as non-aggressive. Religions that are

committed by their theologies to convert, on the other hand, are necessarily

aggressive, since conversion implies a conscious intrusion into the

religious life of a person, in fact, into the religious person.

 

This is a very deep intrusion, as the religious person is the deepest, the

most basic in any individual. When that person is disturbed, a hurt is

sustained which is very deep. The religious person is violated. The depth of

this hurt is attested by the fact that when a religious sentiment is

violated, it can produce a martyr. People connected to a converted person

are deeply hurt. Even the converted person will suffer some hurt underneath.

 

 

He must necessarily wonder if he has done the right thing and, further, he

has to face an inner alienation from his community, a community to which he

has belonged for generations, and thus an alienation from his ancestors. I

don't think that can ever be fully healed. Religious conversion destroys

centuries-old communities and incites communal violence. It is violence and

it breeds violence. Thus, for any humane person, every religious sentiment

has to be respected, whether it is a Muslim sentiment or a Christian

sentiment or a Hindu sentiment.

 

Further, in many religious traditions, including the Hindu tradition,

religion is woven into the fabric of culture. So, destruction of a religion

amounts to the destruction of a religious culture. Today, for instance,

there is no living Greek culture; there are only empty monuments. The Mayan,

Roman and many other rich cultures are all lost forever and humanity is

impoverished for it. Let us at least allow humanity to enjoy the riches of

its remaining mosaic of cultures. Each one has some beauty, something to

contribute to the enrichment of humanity.

 

In any tradition, it is wrong to strike someone who is unarmed. In the Hindu

tradition, this is considered a heinous act, for which the punishment is

severe. A Buddhist, a Hindu, a Jew, are all unarmed, in that they do not

convert. You cannot ask them to change the genius of their traditions and

begin to convert in order to combat conversion. Because it is the tradition

of these religions and cultures not to convert, attempts to convert them is

one-sided aggression. It is striking the unarmed. I respect the freedom of a

Christian or a Muslim to practise his or her faith. I do not accept many of

their beliefs, but I want them to have the freedom to follow their religion.

 

You cannot ask me to respond to conversion by converting others to my

religion because it is not part of my tradition. We don't believe in

conversion, even though certain Hindu organisations have taken back some

converted people. Thus, conversion is not merely violence against people; it

is violence against people who are committed to non-violence.

 

I am hurt by religious conversion and many others like me are hurt. Millions

are hurt. There are many issues to be discussed regarding conversion, but I

want to draw your attention to only the central issue here which is this

one-sided violence. Religious conversion is violence and it breeds violence.

In converting, you are also converting the non-violent to violence.

 

Any protest against religious conversion is always branded as persecution,

because it is maintained that people are not allowed to practise their

religion, that their religious freedom is curbed. The truth is entirely

different. The other person also has the freedom to practise his or her

religion without interference. That is his/her birthright. Religious freedom

does not extend to having a planned programme of conversion. Such a

programme is to be construed as aggression against the religious freedom of

others.

 

During the years of your papal office, you have brought about certain

changes in the attitude and outlook of the church. On behalf of the

non-aggressive religions of the world, the Hindu, the Parsi, the Jewish and

other native religions in different countries, I request you to put a freeze

on conversion and create a condition in which all religious cultures can

live and let live.

 

The writer is the head ofArsha Vidya Gurukulam

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 11/30/05, Tony OClery <aoclery wrote:

>

>

> Namaste,

>

> With regard to all religions and adherents of same. If you lose

> members nothing is lost, for they weren't really believing members in

> the first place..........ONS..>

>

> Krishna Prasad

>

> "Do not imagine your sincerity in work, But work Sincerely with your

> imagination.

>

> Brahmacharya at Body level, Ahimsa at the Mental level and

> Satyam at the Intellectual level should be practiced.

>

> The benefits of these are plenty. May it be a material career or a

> spiritual one,

> these values lead man to supreme success in the chosen field. ' -Swami

> Chinmayanda

>

>