Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Note from List Moderator: Please send your postings directly to advaitin instead of sending to the moderator. Message author: "V Subrahmanian" <subrahmanian_v Namaste Shyam: Your questions are very interesting. They involve a very detailed answer. One will have to gather a lot of references from various works of Vedantic literature. However, a small attempt is made here. For your question 1. Is Self-Knowledge intellectual? Yes. It is intellectual. The Shastra makes it clear that Atmajnanam is a Buddhivritti, a transformation of the intellect, or antahkaranam, and is known as the Akhandakara vritti. Vritti can be of the antahkaranam alone. When objects like pot, etc. are also known by buddhivritti alone, the Atman is realized through the buddhivritti which has Atman for its 'object'. The Antahkaranam 'takes' the 'form' of the Atman. There is a discussion on this aspect in some work wherein the term 'Kshanatrayaatmikaa vritti' is used and this will throw much light on the question. My appeal to any learned member or the esteemed Moderators like Sri Gummuluru Murthy or Sri Sadananda to come up with a detailed dissertation on this subject. In fact, a month long discussion could also be taken up to understand this seemingly elusive topic of the 'Nature of Atmasaakshaatkaara'. 2. secondly, some people have the view that after going through "sravanam", "mananam" , niddhidhyasanam should be undertaken to culminate in aparoksha anubhuti or direct experience of the atman. What does acharya shankara say about this? Reply: At the outset, Yes. Nididhyasanam should be undertaken to culminate in aparoksha anubhuti. While commenting on the famous vaakyam: Atma vaa are drashtavyah. Srotavyo, Mantavyo, Nididhyaasitavyah occurring in the Brihadaaranyaka Upanishad II.4.5, Acharya Shankara says: …………..Tato nididhyaasitavyah = nischayena dhyaatavyah. After sravanam and mananam, nididhyaasanam has to be undertaken. That which has been decisively grasped as a result of mananam (reasoning), has to be meditated upon. The Acharya further says: Evam hi asau drshto bhavati, sravana manana nididhyasana saadhanaih nirvartitaih. Thus,when these three means are carried out, performed, gone through, then alone this Atma becomes realised. He further says…………….. not otherwise, by just sravanam. The Anandagiri gloss on this portion clarifies this portion of the Bhashyam thus: Since sravanam involves the enquiry of the pramana, the authority that is the Veda in this case, verily the instrument without which this knowledge cannot arise, (like the eye which is a sine quo non for perception of colours and forms), sravanam is the pradhanam, the Principal element. Since there could be obstacles to the successful operation of the vedapramanam gained through sravanam in bringing about the result of direct realisation, the other two, mananam and nididhyasanam, acquire the status of subsidiaries. These two perform the function of removing the obstacles like doubt and misconception. Doubt regarding the nature of the Atman like for example: whether it is sagunam or nirgunam, whether it is karyam or karanam, etc. is removed by ratiocination, mananam = tarkatah mananam. Misconception, the deadliest enemy, has to be removed by resorting to nididhyasanam. The obstacle takes the form of : I am the body, the mind, the thinker, karta, bhokta, I am subject to death, disease, etc. So, even if sravanam and mananam are successfully carried out, due to the wandering nature and other proclivities the mind is given to, the goal of decisively relating to, identifying with, the Atman will remain unattained unless the indispensable exercise of nididhyasanam is gone through. Thus, the conclusion is: All the Three Are required. Pl. pardon me for the long elucidation of the Anandagiri gloss. There are other works of Acharya Shankara where the need for nididhyasanam is mentioned: the Dakshinamurtistotram tenth verse says: Tenaasya sravanaat, tadartha mananaat, dhyaanaacha….. Learned members could contribute other sources, specifically Shankarite, to strengthen our understanding. Pranams. subbu > Shyamsundar Venkataraman <sundar_venkat007 two questions Namaste all, I have the following two questions: 1. Is Self-Knowledge intellectual? 2. secondly, some people have the view that after going through "sravanam", "mananam" , niddhidhyasanam should be undertaken to culminate in aparoksha anubhuti or direct experience of the atman. What does acharya shankara say about this? can the learned members of the list please elaborate? pranams harih om Shyam Venkataraman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 List Moderator's Note: List wants to thank the members for their continued support to list policies and guidelines. Please do not include the previous posters' messages in the tail end (or in the beginning) of your message while sending your replies. Both the new members and other members do seem to continue to repeat doing this. The list appreciates your cooperation in keeping the message crisp and clear by removing all unnecessary parts of previous messages. (As it is done in this message!) Namaste all, Thanks for your responses Nairji, Sanjayji, Subrahmanianji, padmaji, Krishnaji, Sankarramanji. Regarding the first question 1. Is Self Knowledge Intellectual? I chanced upon a guru poornima day lecture on this exact topic by Swami Paramarthananda Saraswati. I will upload it to the advaitin files tomorrow. can the list moderators give me permission to do this? Swamiji says that self-knowledge is intellectual and addresses this question brilliantly using acharya shankara's references to this topic and several verses from the upanishads. The lecture is in mp3 format. 2. aparoksha anubhuti my question on this was not on whether niddhidhyasanam is necessary. I fully agree that niddhidhyasanam is absolutely required. My question was more on the lines of "is niddhidhyasanam enough or that one should perfect nirvikalpaka and sahaja samadhi after niddhidhyasanam to gain direct experience of the atman." The people who are advocating the samadhi route are quoting the taittriya upanishad verse "yato vaacho nivartante... apraapya manasaa saha.. What does acharya sankara say on this? does he accept or reject that samadhi is atmasakshaatkara? harih om Shyam Venkataraman Message author: "V Subrahmanian" <subrahmanian_v Namaste Shyam: Your questions are very interesting. They involve a very detailed answer. One will have to gather a lot of references from various works of Vedantic literature. However, a small attempt is made here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 11, 2005 Report Share Posted December 11, 2005 Namaste Sri Shyam: Thanks for the clarifications and they reconfirms our 'perceptional problems of life!' The will not allow the storage of MP3 files on the file folder, and I suggest that you provide the link for members to access. Since you have already heard Swamiji't tapes and we highly respect the wisdom of Swami Paramathanandaji, I suggest that you write up of what you absorbed from the MP3 files. Your second question is 'over loaded' and there can be no easy answer. There is no 'yes' or 'no' answer to such question. The following discussion that took place several years back can throw some insights to your question: advaitin/message/6124 advaitin/message/6167 advaitin/message/6186 advaitin/message/6191 Basically the purpose of sravanam, mananam and niddhidhyasanam is for the 'anthakarana suddhi' or mind purification. When does we recognize that our mind is fully purified can't be answererd. One needs to absorb the entire Vedanta Knowledge to get the answer. We need to have 100 percent faith on Vedantic Knowledge and I should believe that the True Wisdom of the Vedantic Knowledge is the solution. It is again not 'memorizing the words of Vedanta' but it is beyond the words that are spelled out in the Upanishads! It is beyond our perception but only the purified mind has the capacity to abosorb the Truth! This is the Sastra Pramana and we can neither prove nor disprove this metaphysical assertion. warmest regards, Harih Om! Ram Chandran advaitin, Shyamsundar Venkataraman <sundar_venkat007> wrote: > > Namaste all, > > Thanks for your responses Nairji, Sanjayji, Subrahmanianji, padmaji, Krishnaji, Sankarramanji. > > Regarding the first question > > 1. Is Self Knowledge Intellectual? > I will upload it to the advaitin files tomorrow. can the list moderators give me permission to do this? Swamiji says that self- knowledge is intellectual and addresses this question brilliantly using acharya shankara's references to this topic and several verses from the upanishads. The lecture is in mp3 format. > > 2. aparoksha anubhuti > my question on this was not on whether niddhidhyasanam is necessary. I fully agree that niddhidhyasanam is absolutely required. My question was more on the lines of "is niddhidhyasanam enough or that one should perfect nirvikalpaka and sahaja samadhi after niddhidhyasanam to gain direct experience of the atman." The people who are advocating the samadhi route are quoting the taittriya upanishad verse "yato vaacho nivartante... apraapya manasaa saha.. What does acharya sankara say on this? does he accept or reject that samadhi is atmasakshaatkara? > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Namaste Ram Chandranji and namaste to all, Thanks for your response. I'm providing the link for swami paramarthananda's lecture on "Is Self Knowledge Intellectual?". This is the link from where the lecture can be downloaded: http://s18.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0M5LYDK33OCCB0Y58SPYJTY9T5 This link will be available for 7 days from today and for a limited number of downloads. harih om Shyam Venkataraman Ram Chandran <ramvchandran wrote: Namaste Sri Shyam: Thanks for the clarifications and they reconfirms our 'perceptional problems of life!' The will not allow the storage of MP3 files on the file folder, and I suggest that you provide the link for members to access. Since you have already heard Swamiji't tapes and we highly respect the wisdom of Swami Paramathanandaji, I suggest that you write up of what you absorbed from the MP3 files. Shopping Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Shopping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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