Iswara in adivata.

[Guest guest]

I have just copied some statements of the Shree Shankarraman in

responding to Shree RamChandran:

 

<I have conveyed only my understanding of Advaitha, which may not be

proper. You are free to correct me.>

 

1. <The concept of Iswara in Advata is that Iswar is only pure

Consciousness, which if we are able to appreciate, we need not quarrel

as regards the superiority or inferiority of the concept of Iswara.>

 

2. <What we have understood to be Advaitha is only intellectual>.

 

3. <But, let me point out that in the post-Sankaraite Advaithic schools

there are many ideas, which do not correspond with Sankara's

teachings>.

 

4. <Even Bhaghavan Ramana's teachings are put in a different way,

Bhaghavan not questioning the validity of the thoughts nourished by

individuals as regards the concept of Iswara arising only after the

arising of the Self.>

------------

 

 

First, Bhaskarji has provided already some aspects of it. Here, I am

providing my understanding with the hope that it may help in removing

wrong notions about advaita.

 

The concept of Iswara in Advaita: Iswara in advaita does not differ from

Iswara from VishishhTaadvaita – but slightly differs from that of

dvaita: - Iswara and Brahman are identical in VishishhTaadvaita –

corresponding to SaguNa Brahman – Lord Narayana. In advaita – Iswara is

Brahman only if one discards the guNa part. Iswara means the Lord and he

is the Lord of the entire universe consisting of jiiva and jagat – he is

the creator, sustainer and destroyer – as defined in B. Suutra -

janmaadyasya yataH. He is Bhagavaan – that is one who has Bhaga – the

six fold sampatti or auspicious qualities – Aiswaryam(infinite power),

Viiryam(courage), Yashas (fame), Shree(wealth), Jnaanam(knowledge),

Vairaagyam (dispassion). Bhagavaan Ramanuja calls Him as ananta kalyaaNa

guNa aashhraya – locus of infinite auspicious qualities – and infinite

in number and infinite in measure (essentially beyond any mental

conception). He is both the material cause and efficient cause. He is

sarvajnaa, sarvashaktimaan and he is the wielder of Maya or maayaavi

(maya is his shakti). In dvaita, he is not the material cause for the

universe.

If one removes all the attributes, that what remains is the pure

consciousness – that is what Bhaskarji pointed out. This process of

removing the attributes is called ‘bhagatyaga lakshaNa’ of

jaha-ajahallakshNa.

 

In advaita – the Braham is Iswara without any attributes, since in

principle attributes belong to finite and not to infinite. Attributes

are those that distinguishes an object from the rest of the objects in

the universe. In reality ananta guNas of Ramanuja are not different from

guNaatiita in advaita – since infinite is incomprehensible.

 

Since creation is negatable, the creator also stands negatable and

therefore Iswara himself is only a concept as long as there is a concept

of creation. Advaita is not monism – it is negation of duality or

non-duality in spite of duality. Paramaarthika satyam is the essence of

vyaavahaarika satyam or it is paaramarthika satryam in spite of

vyaavahaarika satyam – the implication is one can talk about the truth

or reality in the language of non-reality by process of negation – as

the scripture does that so effectively – yat adreshyam agraahyam

agotrama avarNam … with all the ‘a’s specified for negation of any

attributive understanding. This negation is to be done in vyavahaara

only to perceive the paaramaarthika in vyavahaara – non-duality in spite

of duality. This is essentially what Bhaskarji pointed out that it is

pure consciousness which is substantive of both jiiva and Iswara. Jiiva

and Iswara are different with different vesha or costumes but the

essence of both – that which can be discovered by removing the vesha or

costumes for both – that is bhaaga tyaaga – by discarding the virodhas

or contradictory qualifications due to vesha of both jiiva and Iswara –

one recognizes or gains the knowledge of Brahman; and the knower of

Brahman becomes Brahman.

 

2. Advaita is not intellectual – but one has use the intellect to

inquire and recognzise and fully establish oneself or to see that

non-duality in spite of duality.

 

3. All advaitic masters of post Sankara do not deviate from the above

understanding. The differences that exist are minor and not of concern

to the topic discussed here – unless one wants to make mountain out of a

mole. They all accept that Iswara is Lord and arise within vyavahaara

satya and Brahman is the truth of all truth – satyasya satyaH.

 

4. No. Bhagawaan Ramana’s teaching does not differ from the teachings of

Shankara. In Upadesha saara He says:

‘IshajiivayoH veshadhii bhidaa, satva bhaavato vastu kevalam’

 

The difference between Iswara and jiiva is only vesha – or constume –

constume is that which makes one look different from what one is – If

one removes all the costumes which are different for jiiva and Iswara –

the essence of both is nothing but existence-consciousness.

 

That is what Bhaskarji emphasized.

 

Hope I am clear.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Thank you very much for clarifying the status of *Ishwara* according to

advaita perspective. Just would like to add some additional thoughts :

 

KS prabhuji:

 

He is both the material cause and efficient cause. He is

sarvajnaa, sarvashaktimaan and he is the wielder of Maya or maayaavi

(maya is his shakti).

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes, according to advaita, when we consider creation, brahman is the

material as well as efficient cause of this universe. So, strictly

speaking, the substratum of this jagat, Ishwara & jIva is nothing but

brahman...Ishwara controlling this world, granting fruits of karma-s did by

jIva etc. etc. can be acceptable *as long as* we maintain the differences

among jIva-jagat-Ishwara. If we accept Ishwara & his status in the ultimate

reality also, then we are forced to accept that this universe & jIva also

equally eternal & different from Ishwara..No need to mention that this is

nothing but duality coz. like dvaitins, we too, without our knowledge,

accepting the eternal difference among these triad (jIva-jagat-Ishwara)

just to keep the status of Ishwara intact!!. When advaita saying both

efficient & material cause is nothing but brahman, where does the question

of Ishwara & his control over universe & jIva comes from?? is he

controlling himself?? is he granting fruits of karma for which he himself

did in the jIva form?? What exactly is the problem in accepting Ishwara &

his status & control over world & jIva are valid only in transactional

reality where individuality of jIva is accepted as *reality*!!?? is this

not shankara also saying in sUtra bhAshya??..he says Ishwara's

omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience etc. etc. are valid only in the

transactional reality.why?? coz.in ultimate reality parabrahman is One

without second we cannot have the difference among jIva-jagat-Ishwara as we

do in vyavahAra. Further, we cannot say Ishwara is ultimate reality but

not jIva !!...when you are accepting Ishwara in paramArtha, you have to

have jIvAtma also there in order to maintain the *status* of Ishwara!! you

cannot keep half portion of the hen for cooking & another half for laying

eggs!! ( shankara gives this example in sUtra bhAshya!!!)..

 

just my few thoughts....if time permits more to follow.....

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

[Guest guest]

bhaskar.yr wrote:

praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

Thank you very much for clarifying the status of *Ishwara* according to

advaita perspective. Just would like to add some additional thoughts :

 

KS prabhuji:

 

 

 

What exactly is the problem in accepting Ishwara &

his status & control over world & jIva are valid only in transactional

reality where individuality of jIva is accepted as *reality*!!?? is this

not shankara also saying in sUtra bhAshya??..he says Ishwara's

omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience etc. etc. are valid only in the

transactional reality.why?? coz.in ultimate reality parabrahman is One

without second we cannot have the difference among jIva-jagat-Ishwara as we

do in vyavahAra. Further, we cannot say Ishwara is ultimate reality but

not jIva !!...when you are accepting Ishwara in paramArtha, you have to

have jIvAtma also there in order to maintain the *status* of Ishwara!! you

cannot keep half portion of the hen for cooking & another half for laying

eggs!! ( shankara gives this example in sUtra bhAshya!!!)..

 

just my few thoughts....if time permits more to follow.....

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

 

Dear sir,

What you say is hundred percent correct. we can accept the reality

of Iswara only in the functional sphere. Ramana often says when reference is

made to the world and god, 'Does the world say that it exists? Does Iswara say

.....? Iswara is not out there to be worshipped by an individual fragmented

self; but constitutes the inmost essence, to be realized in the heart.

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Bhaskar-ji

 

This is what i meant by "1*(2+3)".

To accept that Iswara operates in the same level (or parallel to) of

Brahman - if you believe there are no parenthesis - is the same as accepting

individualised jiva to know brahman in vyavahara - thus within the realm of

multiplicity, cognition, intellect etc.

 

my warmest regards

 

 

 

 

 

 

_____

doce lar. Faça do sua homepage.

http://br./homepageset.html

[Guest guest]

--- bhaskar.yr wrote:

>Ishwara controlling this world, granting fruits of karma-s

> did by

> jIva etc. etc. can be acceptable *as long as* we maintain the

> differences

> among jIva-jagat-Ishwara.

>What exactly is the problem in accepting

> Ishwara &

> his status & control over world & jIva are valid only in transactional

> reality where individuality of jIva is accepted as *reality*!!?? is

> this

> not shankara also saying in sUtra bhAshya??..he says Ishwara's

> omnipresence, omnipotence, omniscience etc. etc. are valid only in the

> transactional reality.why?? coz.in ultimate reality parabrahman is One

> without second we cannot have the difference among jIva-jagat-Ishwara

> as we

> do in vyavahAra.

 

Bhaskarji - I realize that you have the full grasp of advaita Vedanta.

However, if I may say it, I would be very careful with words -

particularly when we are discussing about negating Iswara, jiiva and

jagat. To start with, the process of negation itself is in vyavyaahaara.

One cannot negate each one separately and one cannot negate them all

together collectively - what exactly involved is the very process of

negation has to sublimate in understanding that all merge into one.

 

Even the process of negation has to be negated.

 

Then it is not dismissing Iswara, jiiva and jagat but understanding

all are one: Hence Krishna says:

sarvabhuutastam aatmaanam sarva bhuutaanica aatmani|

Ikshate yoga yuktaatmaa sarvatra samadarshhaNaH||

The one firmly established in yoga seems himself in all beings and all

beings in him and he is the one who will have equanimity.

 

Having described the status from a jnaani point, Krishna goes one-step

further and also says in the very next sloka -

yo mam pasyati sarvatra sarvan ca mayi pasyati|

tasyaaham na praNasyami sa ca me na praNasyati||

The one who sees ME everywhere and sees everything in ME, he is never

away from me nor I am from him.

 

Vyavahaara stands as eternal reality too but is taken as real in the

state of ajnaani and apparently real for a jnaani. It becomes as his

aiswaryam. The creation is beginning less and endless too – The Geeta

Upadesha starts with this declaration –

natvevaaham jaatu naasam na tvam na ime janaadhipaaH|

na caiva na bhavishhyaamaH sarve vayamataH param||

The eternal existence of jiivas and him self are established right away

since there was never a time I was not there nor you and these kings

that are standing in front and there will never be a time where we will

be absent in future.

In fact, this very sloka is emphasized by Bhagavaan Ramanuja as

endorsement by Krishna that there are many jiivas - as plural - and all

of them are eternal and therefore this sloka goes against advaita. You

can of course dismiss this as true only in vyavahaara.

 

That is true but the vyavahaara continues until one transcends. Even the

concept of eternity is also in vyavahaara only. Till one transcends it

remains as working hypothesis.

 

Advaita emphasizes the absoluteness as one but that is an understanding

that one has to realize wherein all become one. It is not just negation

but integration of seeing oneness in plurality – that is why I had

mentioned that it is non-duality in spite of duality. Paaramaarthika

satyam in and through vyaavahaarika satyam. Sarvam khalvidam Brahma

becomes a true knowledge without dismissing idam and idam. The duality

is recognized not as absolute reality but apparent reality. Hence,

Krishna declares as

 

mayaatata idam sarvam jagat avyakta muurtinaa|

mastaani sarva bhuutani na ca aham teshu avasthtitaH||

na ca masthaani bhuutaani pasyam me yogam aiswaryam|

 

I pervade this entire universe in an unmanifested form, all being are in

me, but I am not in them. Nay (on the second thought) they are not even

in me since I am undifferentible yet look at my yogamaaya and my glory.

>Further, we cannot say Ishwara is ultimate reality

> but

> not jIva !!..

>when you are accepting Ishwara in paramArtha, you have

> to

> have jIvAtma also there in order to maintain the *status* of Ishwara!!

 

Yes – Jiiva, Iswara and jagat have the same degree of reality and all

are valid within the vyavahaara until they merge into one in the

understanding of the totality. It is not negation of vyavahaara it is

negation of reality to vyavahaara. However, even after having understood

oneness of all, apparent plurality persists but the apparent is

recognized as apparent and not absolutely real. The life of Krishna

itself is an example. He never spared the Rakshasaas knowing very well

that they are all in Him. Nor he failed to bow down at the feet of his

parents.

 

What one has to be careful is only in nidhidhyaasana or contemplation on

that reality that one recognizes oneself as the projected plurality. Ya

cakshusaa na pasyati yena cakshuumsi pasyati – tadeva brahma tvam viddhi

nedam ididam upaasate … etc slokas of Kena need to be contemplated on –

that which eyes cannot see but because of which the eyes have the

capacity to see, know that is Brahman not this that you worship here.

That is repeated five times to emphasize what that Brahman is – to

transcend oneself from the apparent plurality that one experiences to

that reality which provides as substantive to all experiences – jiiva,

jagat and Iswara.

 

The point is any negation of the world, Iswara and jiiva has a meaning

only as one transcends to the understanding of the convergence of all

into one- ekam eva advitiiyam. Obviously it has to be done at the seat

of meditation when the mind has acquired the saadhana chatushhTayam – or

until the mind is ready for nidhidhyaasanam.

> just my few thoughts....if time permits more to follow.....

>

 

Go ahead. Since I have made my points, I will go back to my silence

unless I am propelled to say something as clarification of my

understanding.

 

Bhaskarji I am now in Chennai – may visit Bangalore – do not know when,

but will let you know.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

[Guest guest]

Humble praNAms Sri Sadananda prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

If you could permit me, I'd like to add some additional thoughts to your

well written mail prabhuji.

 

KS prabhuji:

 

However, if I may say it, I would be very careful with words -

particularly when we are discussing about negating Iswara, jiiva and

jagat.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes, ofcourse, this negation is not about our svarUpa...this negation

pertains to *individual status* of upAdhikruta Ishwara-jIva-jagat.

 

KS prabhuji:

 

To start with, the process of negation itself is in vyavyaahaara.

One cannot negate each one separately and one cannot negate them all

together collectively - what exactly involved is the very process of

negation has to sublimate in understanding that all merge into one.

 

bhaskar :

 

IMHO, this understanding of merging should not lead us to conclude

Ishwara-jIva-jagat are eternally real in brahman with all their decorations

(limited adjuncts)...prabhuji I hope you agree with me that at no point of

time there is a separation & subsequent *merging* it is ONE and *always

ONE*

 

KS Prabhuji:

 

Even the process of negation has to be negated.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes prabhuji, when it is one without second...what is there to be

negated!!??

 

KS prabhuji :

 

Then it is not dismissing Iswara, jiiva and jagat but understanding

all are one:

 

bhaskar :

 

when there is absolutely no difference between these three, no need of

identifying them separately "as this is Ishwara"& "these are jIva & jagat"

which have been controlled by Ishwara etc. etc. is it not?? when there is

no difference between upAdAna (material) & nimitta (efficient) kAraNa, when

there is absolutely no difference between kArya (effect) and kAraNa (cause)

where is the question of three different entities like Ishwara, jIva &

jagat prabhuji?? if you negate the upAdhi-s associated with these three,

what is left is yEkamEvAdvitIya satya that is parabrahman which is

nirvishEsha & nirAkAra.

 

KS prabhuji:

 

Vyavahaara stands as eternal reality too but is taken as real in the

state of ajnaani and apparently real for a jnaani.

 

bhaskar :

 

true, examination of our avasthA traya substantiate the apparent reality of

world & our socalled *jIvatva*.

 

KS prabhuji:

 

It becomes as his aiswaryam. The creation is beginning less and endless too

? The Geeta

Upadesha starts with this declaration ?

natvevaaham jaatu naasam na tvam na ime janaadhipaaH|

na caiva na bhavishhyaamaH sarve vayamataH param||

The eternal existence of jiivas and him self are established right away

since there was never a time I was not there nor you and these kings

that are standing in front and there will never be a time where we will

be absent in future.

In fact, this very sloka is emphasized by Bhagavaan Ramanuja as

endorsement by Krishna that there are many jiivas - as plural - and all

of them are eternal and therefore this sloka goes against advaita. You

can of course dismiss this as true only in vyavahaara.

 

bhaskar :

 

I dont have to comment on this verse prabhuji, as you are well aware of

shankara's commentary on this verse & advaita's stand ...by the way *anEka

jIva vAda* (multiple jIvAtma theory) is not an alien theory to

shankara...he does accepts this theory in kArikA bhAshya, while answering

the question "who awakes from deep sleep"??

 

KS prabhuji:

 

That is true but the vyavahaara continues until one transcends. Even the

concept of eternity is also in vyavahaara only. Till one transcends it

remains as working hypothesis.

 

bhaskar :

 

yes prabhuji all our intellectual gymnastics about transcedental &

transactional are in vyavahAra only...and our jignAsa about brahman is also

in vyavahAra only wherein classification of these two satya-s (!!??) play a

very vital part to determine which is nitya and which is anitya.

 

KS prabhuji:

 

Advaita emphasizes the absoluteness as one but that is an understanding

that one has to realize wherein all become one. It is not just negation

but integration of seeing oneness in plurality ? that is why I had

mentioned that it is non-duality in spite of duality.

 

bhaskar :

 

I've some problem in understanding this statement *non-duality in spite of

duality* prabhuji...does this not imply bhEdAbhEda vAda?? shankara

clearly refutes this in bruhadAraNyaka bhAshya. Where is the question of

*in spite of duality* in brahman prabhuji?? do you mean to say brahman is

subject to *vikAra* to see the duality!! Kindly clarify.

 

KS prabhuji:

 

Go ahead. Since I have made my points, I will go back to my silence

unless I am propelled to say something as clarification of my

understanding.

 

bhaskar :

 

I am planning to write about para & apara brahman in advaita & shankara's

clarification about these two brahmans!! I think, third chapter of vEdAnta

sUtra & shankara's commentary explicitly deals with this subject...there

are some startling assertions by shankara in which he emphatically says

Ishwara is kEvala upAdhikruta & not real in ultimate reality.

 

KS prabhuji:

 

Bhaskarji I am now in Chennai ? may visit Bangalore ? do not know when,

but will let you know.

 

bhaskar :

 

Oh!! thats really great news prabhuji...I'll be eagerly awaiting to meet

your goodself prabhuji. Kindly let me know your programme in advance...so

that, if your time permits, we shall meet our guruji & Sri KG subbaraya

sharma also...(both are direct desciples of my parama guruji Sri Sri

Satchidaanandendra saraswati mahAswamy)

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar