Reply to Sri V.Subramanian prabhuji's post on avidyA and adhyAsa - Part - I

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Namaste Bhaskarji:

 

praNAms Sri V.Subramanian prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

First, kindly pardon me for the belated reply....bit busy with year end

official activities at office.

 

At the outset, it is worth to be noted here that this discussion taking

diversion from the topic adhyAsa-adhyArOpa to avidyA-adhyAsa...Since you

have not answered to my shankara/gaudapAda quotes (kArika, gIta & sUtra

bhAshya) wherein he shows us the adhyAsa & adhyArOpita/adhyArOpa

difference, I've forced myself to switchover to your deliberation on

avidyA AND adhyAsa (it is indeed a big *AND* here) for sharing my

thoughts on it. Accordingly, suitably I've changed the subject heading

also...hope you wont mind. Here we go prabhuji:

 

VS prabhuji:

 

We will resume our discussion on Adhyasa. From your two postings so far

on this topic, I understand that you consider:

adhyasa and avidya as meaning the same

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes, that is right!! since shankara himself confirms this in his preamble

to sUtra bhAshya which you have already quoted ...I am afraid, the

superfluous interpretation i.e. adhyAsa is avidyA kArya is an attempt to

obfuscate the plain meaning!! I'll try to explain my problems with that

interpretation below.

 

VS prabhuji:

 

adhyasa and adhyaropa are different

 

bhaskar :

 

As said earlier, adhyAsa is anAdi ajnAna about the true nature of a

thing!! adhyArOpa is coz. of this ignorance!!

 

VS prabhuji:

 

adhyasa precedes adhyaropa and is the cause for adhyaropa Right?

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji kindly note I am not talking about cause and effect

(kArya-kAraNa) theory here with regard to adhyAsa & adhyArOpa...like

adhyAsa is the cause and adhyArOpa is effect etc. ...I am talking about

*lOkAnubhava* and that which is naisargika to human mind.

 

VS prabhuji:

 

You also say that the misconception stage is avidya/adhyasa and the wrong

cognition stage is the adhyaropa. I am unable to understand the

difference between misconception and wrong cognition.

 

bhaskar :

 

Here misconception/misunderstanding is lack of knowledge about the *true

nature of a thing* ( in the rope -snake analogy misconception is with

regard to rope)...and wrong cognition is *seeing one thing in the place

of another* due to lack of knowledge about the thing actually there!! (

again in the analogy..wrong cognition of the snake in place of rope).

 

VS prabhuji:

 

You seem to be making the difference between the mental state first and

the second in the outside the mind, at the sense level.

 

bhaskar :

 

Is this not there in our anubhava prabhuji?? if the rope is conspicuous

and the knowledge of it is clear.. where is the question of *wrong

cognition of snake & its curved shape * at sense level??

 

VS prabhuji:

 

In anubhava, however, we recognise a non-apprehension state. When the

torch light is flashed and we see that it is only a rope, our reaction

is: Oh! I did not know this! If only I had known this, all this 'galata'

would not be there.

This 'not knowing' in the first place, although only realised later, is

the non-apprehension part of bhrama which has to be admitted.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes prabhuji...this *not knowing*/non-apprehension state is natural for

human mind...for example child (just born) does not know anything about

him/herself & others!! as the child grows slowly, he/she gets that

knowledge of familiarity with father, mother & surroundings. So, in our

life ignorance is natural regarding anything..for exp...I dont know

anything about software & programing..but nobody asks me why & since when

this ignorance started!! But if I do some courses with regard to software

and programing my ignorance of that thing will be removed completely...I

think this is what happening in your example...First, due to dim light,

he could not get the real cognition of the rope and sees a snake in place

of rope... Here non-apprehension (not knowing) of rope leads him to wrong

cognition of snake!! subsequently this wrong cognition has been removed

by throwing sufficient light..

 

VS prabhuji:

 

This not knowing is what has been termed 'avarana'. Then what follows is

the mis-apprehension. This is the vikshepa.

 

bhaskar :

 

Sorry prabhuji, no bhAshya support for categorization of AvaraNa which

precedes the misapprehension / vikShEpa & it is quite contradictory to

anubhava as well as explained above...By the way, what is the difference

that you are attributing between not knowing and mis-apprehension???

 

The not-knowing/AvaraNa or kAraNAvidyA/agrahaNa (causal ignorance...which

you quoted below) is nothing but non apprehension/non perception in the

above analogy..

 

VS prabhuji:

 

In other words, the non-apprehension is ignorance: I did not know what it

was. Mis-apprehension is the Error.

 

bhaskar :

 

you are talking about three types of adhyAsa-s/ignorance and saying one

comes after another...according to you, agrahaNa/ (avidyA) comes first

next adhyAsa/adhyArOpa takes place...as you know ignorance is of three

types

 

(a) agrahaNa/tattvAgrahaNa or non-perception/non-apprehension

(b) adhyAsa/misconception/misunderstanding

© saMshaya (doubting)..

 

In your above module where do you place the third category of ignorance??

 

As a matter of fact, all the three kinds are called ignorance or avidyA

or adhyAsa. When the knowledge dawns in the mind then all the three will

vanish at once...Shankara confirms the same while commenting on

*khEtrajnaM cha api mAM viddhi sarva kshEtrEshu* verse in gItA..(kindly

check bhAshya)

 

So, ignorance is natural for human mind & it will be removed by

knowledge. From the stand point of rationality, as you said, it seems

the non-perception is the predominant factor. it is correct also since

mistaken knowledge can never arise without the absence of correct

knoweledge ..so absence of correct knowledge (jnanAbhAva) is avidyA in

the main. But noway it is the material cause for subsequent adhyAsa as

you are saying.

 

But if you look at the scenario of life experience (lOkAnubhava)

predominance goes to the misconception/adhyAsa. That means

misunderstanding, that is what is called defect of the antaHkaraNa or

mind. Due to this adhyAsa one mistakes one thing for another (rajata in

place of shukti, snake in place of rope etc.) But he does not suspect it

and takes it as the right knowledge. When the result goes against his

knowledge then only he suspects about the correctness of his knowledge.

Through the proper guidance (by the help of light in the rope-snake

analogy) when he gets the correct knowledge of the thing (rope-shukti)

then he himself realizes that what he had understood before is wrong..Due

to non-perception/non-apprehension or non-discrimination or want of

discrimination I've misunderstood the thing. So he himself systamatize

that the cause of his misunderstanding is non perception and that he had

proceeded with misconception or adhyAsa *in the beginning*. Therefore,

the misconception/misunderstanding/adhyAsa is the predominant factor here

in anubhava...Hence, your judgement avidyA first & adhyAsa next is

*lOkAnubhava viruddha* (contradictory to our day to day experience!!)

 

And this is what shankara too says in adhyAsa bhAshya : " this

superimposition that is of this nature is considered by the learned to be

avidya nescience " (Sanskrit transliteration you have already provided

below)..

 

Thus in the opinion of shankara, according to his own words in bhAshya,

avidyA is equal to adhyAsa. Though avidyA consists of all the three

kinds that is agrahaNa (non perception), adhyAsa (mis conception) and

saMshaya (doubting) the word *adhyAsa* is the predominant factor in all

theses three kinds...If you need further details on this kindly check

shankara's kArikA bhAshya from 1-11 to 15...Since this mail becoming

already lengthy I cannot give those details here.

 

Since you have jumped from avidyA-adhyAsa topic to avasthAtraya prakriya,

in the next mail (part-II), we will take avasthA traya vivEka with

appropriate quotes from shankara bhAshya....We will also discuss about

kAraNAvidyA in sushupti..ignorance+mis conceptions of vishwa and taijasa

states etc. etc. ....till then....

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar