Adhyasa - Adhyaropa. Reply to Bhaskarji

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Ref.Message No.14

Namaste Bhaskarji:

 

Let me first give you the reply for the clarification you had originally

sought subsequent to listening to Swami Dayananda Saraswati's lecture:

 

Even though I had given the reply in the first post itself, you appeared to be

not satisfied. In the second detailed reply too there seemed to be no change in

your position. That reply was the way the traditional ShAnkara Advaita

sampradaya teaching is. On the very first occasion, I got a gut feeling that

this thinking of yours is not the way the traditional teachers maintain. My

feeling got 100% confirmed by your subsequent posts which contained the typical

arguments put forward by a particular school that broke away from the sampradaya

and which is opposed to the traditional school and consequently rejected by

them as unacceptable. The not accepting of kaarana avidya, not accepting any

other purvaacharyas of the advaita sampradaya, the holding on to the :Tametam

evamlakshanam adhyasam.. sentence for their theory, are all the characteristics

of this school. After confirming about the school that might have influenced

you, I decided to show you the translations of the very

Swamiji, with due respects to him.

 

Your drawing my attention to the Kshetrajna adhyaya turned out to be a boon to

me for therein in the Bhashya for the second verse, a pretty long one, Shankara

uses, may be a dozen times, alternatingly, the terms: Avidya-adhyasta,

Avidya-adhyaropita, and similar terms like avidya kalpita. In all the cases the

Revered translator has promptly used the prefix : Avidyeyinda adhyastavaada,

avidyeyinda kalpitavaada, avidyeyinda aropitavaada, avidyeyinda Huttukattida..

etc. This usage of the avidya-word in the compound words, I had pointed out

before seeing that Kannada book, which I do not possess anyway.

 

Incidentally in this very Bhashyam, Shankara uses the 'BaalaH aakaashe

talamalinataadi example which he provided in the Adhyasa bhashyam with the usage

of adhyasyanti there but with the usage adhyaropitena in the Gita 13th ch,2nd

sloka bhashya. Of course the translator has used the same words of Shankara in

both the cases. The usages seen of adhyasa and adhyaropita leaves no doubt that

that they mean the same. When I was looking at the various sentences there to

show you the similarity of adhyasa and adhyaropita, as luck would have it for

me, the translator has provided a footnote on page 622 of

SriBhagavadgeetaaBhashya, Kannada published by Adhyatma prakasha karyalaya,

Holenarasipura, edited by Vidwan Adhyatmavidyapraveena Sri

H.S.Lakshminarasimhamurti:

Foot Note 1. Avidye, Ajnaana, Tappu tiluvalike ellavU ondE arthada mAtugalu.

Adhyaaropa, Adhyasa – eradU ondE arthada mAtugalu.

The English translation of the above notes is: Avidya, AjnAna,

mis-apprehension are all synonymous. AdhyAropa, AdhyAsa – both are synonymous.

 

That makes my job very easy. For, if any other commentator like Ratnaprabha

or Anandagiri or other Acharya like Sri Vidyaranya had said this, you would have

rejected it outright as not at all relevant in understanding the

ShAnkara-Advaita. But this above, you cannot afford to reject. Even if you say

that these are not the Translator's views, but only the editor's, still that

editor must have studied in that school for otherwise the publisher- institution

would not have permitted him to edit the translation.

 

Now coming to Kaarana Avidya, let me quote Sri Sureshwaracharya's words, which

are the only non-ShAnkaran pramana acceptable for that school:

'Adhyaasascha vinaa hetum na loke upapadyate' (Ref.no. not available with me)

Free translation: Without a preceding cause, adhyasa is not accepted

(experienced) in the world.

Asya dvaitendrajaalasya yadupAdAna-kAranam |

AjnAnam, tadupAshritya Brahma KAranamuchyate ||

meaning: The material cause of this variegated universe, verily a magical

creation, is Ajnanam, ignorance. As endowed with this Ajnanam, Brahman is said

to be the Cause (of the universe). The vartika ref. is not avlbl. with me.

 

Let me clarify that the word sampradaya or traditional that I have used is not

out of any blind fascination. What I have observed is that the Vedanta taught

by those who have studied in Sringeri, Kanchi, Varanasi, etc. does not consist

the above views that I pointed out as characteristics of that particular school.

The institution in Tenali, Andhra Pradesh, that conducts a several-year course,

which is studied by people working in secular fields as well, also does not

accept these views in its syllabus.

 

Let me also tell you that the translation of the Prasthanatraya bhashyas by

the Revered Swami is easily the most widely read by both serious students as

well as scholars. In our class, these books were permanently a part of the

teaching desk. I have heard my Guru say more than once: 'That Swami has toiled

much to make these translations. The work is so good and dependable. Of course,

one need not give much importance to his personal views which he has included in

the footnotes here and there.'

 

I think I have said enough, much more than enough, on this topic. If I say

more, I will be only beating a dead horse. Several times in the past these

views were debated by the two schools. Great scholars who were stalwarts in the

subject have spoken on this. I have nothing more to add to those arguments

which are available on record.

 

However, since you had raised some other questions which came up during the

discussion, I have tried to address some of them. This I am making a separate

post for the reason that one, this post itself has become very long and two,

those interested in that particular topic can read and comment and take the

discussion forward.

 

In conclusion, I thank you a lot; this exercise gave me an opportunity to

study some of the books in depth and do some deep thinking. I close this post

and the discussion on the topic with a Kannada proverb, also heard from my Guru;

I have myself not studied Kannada as a language in school/college:

'Saganiyavanodane sarasakkinthalu gandhiganodane guddaaduvudu melu.' Meaning:

There is a vendor of sandalwood. There is another who is involved in collecting

cow-dung and drying it for fuel, etc. The proverb says: it is better to even

have a fight with the former than having a Teta-e-tete with the latter. I

believe I have, through this discussion, acquired a lot of the sandal fragrance

in the form of sat-samskaras generated by studying the books involved in this

discussion. Your original question was the cause of all this.

 

Humble pranams

subbu

 

 

 

 

 

DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less

 

 

[Guest guest]

Request to Moderators :

 

Kindly let me know how to pick the Mesg. Nos. in the mail...will it be

possible to make arrangements to prefix the mesg. nos. in the subject

line itself (like as we get by default in the subject) so

that those who donot have the accessibility to internet & getting the

mails directly to their official ID could quote the mesg. nos...just a

query...

 

Now to the mail from Sri V. SubramaNian prabhuji received on 8th Jan'06.

 

Ref.Message No.14

Namaste Bhaskarji:

 

praNAms Sri V. SubramaNian prabhuji

Hare Krishna

 

pardon me for the belated reply.

 

VS prabhuji:

 

Let me first give you the reply for the clarification you had originally

sought subsequent to listening to Swami Dayananda Saraswati's lecture:

 

Even though I had given the reply in the first post itself, you appeared

to be not satisfied. In the second detailed reply too there seemed to be

no change in your position.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes prabhuji, that is because you have not given reply to my sUtra

bhAshya & gItAbhAshya quotes where bhagavadpAda clearly distinguishes

adhyAsa & adhyArOpa/adhyArOpita...Moreover, apart from shankara quotes I

had shown you how adhyAsa is antaHkaraNa dOsha & adhyArOpa is objective

false appearence according to *lOkAnubhava* that also you didn't care to

comment...Hence, my queries will remain as afresh!!

 

VS prabhuji:

 

That reply was the way the traditional ShAnkara Advaita sampradaya

teaching is.

 

bhaskar :

 

No problem with *traditional teaching* prabhuji as long as it complies

with the bhagavadpAda's *bhAshya vAkya*.

 

VS prabhuji:

 

On the very first occasion, I got a gut feeling that this thinking of

yours is not the way the traditional teachers maintain. My feeling got

100% confirmed by your subsequent posts which contained the typical

arguments put forward by a particular school that broke away from the

sampradaya and which is opposed to the traditional school and

consequently rejected by them as unacceptable.

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji, you better note that it is an *open secret* in this list that I

am a humble student of Sri Sri SatchidAnandEndra Saraswati Swamiji of HN

Pur...and My guruji is Sri Ashwatha Narayana Avadhanigal of Mattur who is

direct desciple of Sri SS swamiji...

 

With regard to *traditional non-acceptance of swamiji's teaching*

etc.etc. as declared by you is totally irrelevant to the present context

of our discussion..As you know we are discussing our doubts *based* on

bhagavadpAda's works & NOT based on our swamiji's works.

 

VS prabhuji:

 

The not accepting of kaarana avidya, not accepting any other

purvaacharyas of the advaita sampradaya, the holding on to the :Tametam

evamlakshanam adhyasam.. sentence for their theory, are all the

characteristics of this school.

 

bhaskar :

 

Yes ofcourse with proper justification to these conclusions from again,

bhagavadpAda's prasthAna trayi bhAshya which are supposed to be the

fundamental premise for determining shankara siddhAnta...hope you agree

with it.

 

VS prabhuji:

 

After confirming about the school that might have influenced you, I

decided to show you the translations of the very Swamiji, with due

respects to him.

 

Your drawing my attention to the Kshetrajna adhyaya turned out to be a

boon to me for therein in the Bhashya for the second verse, a pretty long

one, Shankara uses, may be a dozen times, alternatingly, the terms:

Avidya-adhyasta, Avidya-adhyaropita, and similar terms like avidya

kalpita. In all the cases the Revered translator has promptly used the

prefix : Avidyeyinda adhyastavaada, avidyeyinda kalpitavaada, avidyeyinda

aropitavaada, avidyeyinda Huttukattida.. etc. This usage of the

avidya-word in the compound words, I had pointed out before seeing that

Kannada book, which I do not possess anyway.

 

bhaskar :

 

Thanks for quoting from my swamiji's works prabhuji...but I am unable to

understand what is the point that you are going to prove here...Since as

you know, we have discussed these compound words subsequently & noway you

can prove from this that avidyA is the material cause (upAdAna kAraNa)

for adhyAsa..

 

VS prabhuji:

 

Incidentally in this very Bhashyam, Shankara uses the 'BaalaH aakaashe

talamalinataadi example which he provided in the Adhyasa bhashyam with

the usage of adhyasyanti there but with the usage adhyaropitena in the

Gita 13th ch,2nd sloka bhashya. Of course the translator has used the

same words of Shankara in both the cases. The usages seen of adhyasa and

adhyaropita leaves no doubt that that they mean the same. When I was

looking at the various sentences there to show you the similarity of

adhyasa and adhyaropita, as luck would have it for me, the translator has

provided a footnote on page 622 of SriBhagavadgeetaaBhashya, Kannada

published by Adhyatma prakasha karyalaya, Holenarasipura, edited by

Vidwan Adhyatmavidyapraveena Sri H.S.Lakshminarasimhamurti: Foot Note 1.

Avidye, Ajnaana, Tappu tiluvalike ellavU ondE arthada mAtugalu.

Adhyaaropa, Adhyasa ? eradU ondE arthada mAtugalu.

The English translation of the above notes is: Avidya, AjnAna,

mis-apprehension are all synonymous. AdhyAropa, AdhyAsa ? both are

synonymous.

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji, as said earlier the difference between adhyAsa & adhyArOpa has

been taught by my teacher that you may not find it in written works...but

you must agree there is hell a lot of difference between mere reading

books & having personal interaction with guruji-s on siddhAnta nirNaya.

BTW, you might have noticed I had said adhyArOpita is false appearance

(snake in place of rope) and adhyArOpa means the feeling one thing as

another...(conceiving the nature of rope as snake!!)..So, according to my

understanding, avdiyA is nothing but adhyAsa and mAya is adhyArOpita.

that is why mAya is called avidyAkalpita.. but what you are implying is

(kindly refer your reply to chitta prabhuji with regard to brahman is the

material cause) mAya or prakruti which is called as material cause for

adhyAsa...in this case the kAraNa avidyA which you are calling as *bhAva

rUpa* cannot be an attributed thing (i.e. adhyArOpita). So, at any point

of time it will not be vanished by vidyA.

 

prabhuji I am still waiting for your explanation on the terms *pratyEti

atra* & *pratitilakShaNArtaH*...would you care to comment on these sUtra

bhAshya vAkya-s prabhuji.

 

VS prabhuji:

 

That makes my job very easy. For, if any other commentator like

Ratnaprabha or Anandagiri or other Acharya like Sri Vidyaranya had said

this, you would have rejected it outright as not at all relevant in

understanding the ShAnkara-Advaita. But this above, you cannot afford to

reject. Even if you say that these are not the Translator's views, but

only the editor's, still that editor must have studied in that school for

otherwise the publisher- institution would not have permitted him to edit

the translation.

 

bhaskar :

 

No need for get into those complications when you understand the validity

of *personal teachings* of guru..

 

VS prabhuji:

 

Now coming to Kaarana Avidya, let me quote Sri Sureshwaracharya's words,

which are the only non-ShAnkaran pramana acceptable for that school:

'Adhyaasascha vinaa hetum na loke upapadyate' (Ref.no. not available with

me)

Free translation: Without a preceding cause, adhyasa is not accepted

(experienced) in the world.

Asya dvaitendrajaalasya yadupAdAna-kAranam |

AjnAnam, tadupAshritya Brahma KAranamuchyate ||

meaning: The material cause of this variegated universe, verily a magical

creation, is Ajnanam, ignorance. As endowed with this Ajnanam, Brahman

is said to be the Cause (of the universe). The vartika ref. is not

avlbl. with me.

 

bhaskar :

 

Kindly provide me the reference of this vAkya (Sri Sundar prabhuji kindly

help)...whether this quote is in naishkarmya siddhi or bruhad vArtika or

taitirIya vArtika ??

 

VS prabhuji:

 

Let me clarify that the word sampradaya or traditional that I have used

is not out of any blind fascination.

 

bhaskar :

 

I did not say that prabhuji nor did I seek clarification about the status

of your saMpradAya?? have I asked anything of that sort prabhuji?? :-))

 

VS prabhuji:

 

What I have observed is that the Vedanta taught by those who have studied

in Sringeri, Kanchi, Varanasi, etc. does not consist the above views

that I pointed out as characteristics of that particular school.

 

bhaskar :

 

They are welcome to have theri own apprehensions about shankara siddhAnta

prabhuji..I dont have any issues...for that matter do you know there are

lot of difference opinion even between socalled saMpradAyavAdins in

ShrungEri & kAnchi mutt prabhuji?? Let us not discuss those in this

thread...

 

VS prabhuji:

 

The institution in Tenali, Andhra Pradesh, that conducts a several-year

course, which is studied by people working in secular fields as well,

also does not accept these views in its syllabus.

 

bhaskar :

 

prabhuji sorry to say that it is irrelevant to the present discussion.

 

VS prabhuji:

 

Let me also tell you that the translation of the Prasthanatraya bhashyas

by the Revered Swami is easily the most widely read by both serious

students as well as scholars. In our class, these books were permanently

a part of the teaching desk. I have heard my Guru say more than once:

'That Swami has toiled much to make these translations. The work is so

good and dependable. Of course, one need not give much importance to his

personal views which he has included in the footnotes here and there.'

 

bhaskar :

 

Thanks for sharing the informatation...but I must say these consolation

words too are irrelevant to our present topic...Kindly let me know what

is the logic behind bringing the name of saMpradAya when we are

discussing the issues purely on the basis of bhagavadpAda's prasthAna

trayi bhAshya??

 

VS prabhuji:

 

I think I have said enough, much more than enough, on this topic. If I

say more, I will be only beating a dead horse. Several times in the past

these views were debated by the two schools. Great scholars who were

stalwarts in the subject have spoken on this. I have nothing more to add

to those arguments which are available on record.

 

bhaskar :

 

if you dont mind...off the list kindly bring those records to my

notice...we shall take those records for our further discussions...while

on the subject, I'd like to say there is a debate on the issue of

mUlAvidyA between Sri jnAnAnandEndra saraswati (direct desciple of Sri SS

swamiji & formerly known as AstAn vidwAn Sri Vittala shAstri) & some

pundit before then shrungEri mahAsannidhAnam Sri Abhinava

vidyAtIrtha...wherein it has been almost concluded that mUlAvIdyA is an

dangerous tumour in shankara's advaita philosophy...

 

VS prabhuji:

 

However, since you had raised some other questions which came up during

the discussion, I have tried to address some of them. This I am making a

separate post for the reason that one, this post itself has become very

long and two, those interested in that particular topic can read and

comment and take the discussion forward.

 

bhaskar :

 

I have shared my understanding on your subsequent mail already...kindly

clarify my doubts raised in that mail prabhuji.

 

VS prabhuji:

 

In conclusion, I thank you a lot; this exercise gave me an opportunity to

study some of the books in depth and do some deep thinking. I close this

post and the discussion on the topic with a Kannada proverb, also heard

from my Guru; I have myself not studied Kannada as a language in

school/college: 'Saganiyavanodane sarasakkinthalu gandhiganodane

guddaaduvudu melu.' Meaning: There is a vendor of sandalwood. There is

another who is involved in collecting cow-dung and drying it for fuel,

etc. The proverb says: it is better to even have a fight with the former

than having a Teta-e-tete with the latter. I believe I have, through

this discussion, acquired a lot of the sandal fragrance in the form of

sat-samskaras generated by studying the books involved in this

discussion. Your original question was the cause of all this.

 

bhaskar :

 

Thanks for your involvement in the discussion prabhuji...I consider my

self fortunate to have discussion with scholars like you prabhuji.

 

Humble pranams

subbu

 

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar