Request from an Ignorant.

January 7, 2006

Sir,

Now this comes from a person who is ignorant.I have been reading the posts

from u guys and they seem so esoteric.I am very much interested in the knowledge

of the Self.However, from what i figure out is that such Knowledge and way the

people of this group relate to the subject makes me marvel at their genious.But

is this genious a result of genuine Self Realization or is this just an attempt

to prove Intellectual Superiority.

Again , i am just a neophyte and apologize for my ignorant words.But

will anyone plainly explain me if is there any need for intellectual probing

into Brahman if its a matter of REALIZING.

Is truth to be 'understood' or 'seen'?

Send instant messages to your online friends http://in.messenger.

January 8, 2006

Namste Aniruddha-Ji:

In my simplistic understanding of advaita, my recommendations would

be as follows:

1. The "self" you refer to, is to be recognized by you the

individual self that it is part and parcel of the same.

2. This process must initiated by you yourself. Because no one can

know "you (Aniruddha)" but you yourself. Therefore the enquiry must

start with you and end with you as well.

3. All you need is to have a desire to know the item #2.

4. Once you realize the item # 2 then the desire automatically

vanishes and advaita circle gets completed.

The perimeters within which the "individual self" operates is aatmaa

and the aatmaa of the whole universe including you is prama-atmaa

can then easily be realized as being sajaatiiya.

Regards & Best wishes,

Dr. Yadu

advaitin, Aniruddha <anides_84> wrote:

>

> Sir,

>

> I am very much interested in the knowledge of the Self.However,

from what i figure out is that such Knowledge

>

But will anyone plainly explain me if is there any need for

intellectual probing into Brahman if its a matter of REALIZING.

>

January 8, 2006

advaitin, Aniruddha <anides_84> wrote:

>

> Now this comes from a person who is ignorant.I have been

reading the posts from u guys and they seem so esoteric.I am very

much interested in the knowledge of the Self.However, from what i

figure out is that such Knowledge and way the people of this group

relate to the subject makes me marvel at their genious.But is this

genious a result of genuine Self Realization or is this just an

attempt to prove Intellectual Superiority.

> Again , i am just a neophyte and apologize for my ignorant

words.But will anyone plainly explain me if is there any need for

intellectual probing into Brahman if its a matter of REALIZING.

> Is truth to be 'understood' or 'seen'?

Moderator Note,

The phrase 'ruchINAM vaichitryaM' - differences in tastes -

may explain partially what you have observed. For those who

genuinely consider themselves neophytes, resources sre available in

the Files section to prepare oneself, both for improving one's

understanding and for constructive participation.

The following essays are a 'must-read':

http://www.advaitin.com/advaitadialogue.pdf

http://www.advaitin.com/AyyarAdvaitaVedanta.pdf

Many other essays can be studied at:

http://www.advaitin.com/LinksToListDiscussions.html

January 8, 2006

>Aniruddha <anides_84

>Sir,

>

> Now this comes from a person who is ignorant. I have been reading the

>posts from u guys and they seem so esoteric.I am very much interested in

>the knowledge of the Self.However, from what i figure out is that such

>Knowledge and way the people of this group relate to the subject makes me

>marvel at their genious.But is this genious a result of genuine Self

>Realization or is this just an attempt to prove Intellectual Superiority.

Shree Aniruddhaji

PraNaams.

I am happy to know that you are very much interested in the knowledge of the

self. If that is your quest, then you have clearly identified your object

of knowledge. Do not worry about the other’s genius, since that is not

going to help you. Let us concentrate on your goal, and let us examine what

is needed to achieve that goal.

First, let us find out what self you want to know? If it is about your

self, you should know more about it than anyone else, is it not? The

other's genius is not going to help you to learn about yourself. Would it

help me much if I know that these others, who you think are genius, have

realized their selves so that they can tell me about my self? However, how

can they tell about ‘my self’ if all they only know is only about

themselves? Unless I have some way of knowing that if they know about

themselves, they also know about ‘myself’ – or their self is same as myself.

Even if that possibility exists, I still have a problem of knowing whether

they know ‘themselves’ or not, for them to know about ‘myself’. How am I

going to evaluate that they have knowledge about themselves so that I can

learn from them about myself?

The second problem is your very quest to know about yourself indicates that

you have already concluded that you do not know about yourself, or whatever

you know about yourself is incorrect or insufficient. However, on what

basis? Can I see myself to learn about myself. If I have a blemish on my

face, seeing that other people may point out that I have some blemish on my

face. This will only give me an indirect knowledge about the blemish that I

have, which I cannot see. To learn about the condition of my face and to

get direct perspective of the nature and extent of that blemish, I have to

run to a mirror so that I can see my face clearly. By pointing out the

blemish and bringing it to my attention, the others have helped me only to

some extent, but I have to run to a mirror to see clearly. We assume that

mirror is not concave or convex or curved so that my face is not distorted

and the image that I see is a true reflection of myself. I also assume that

there is proper illumination on myself so that image is clear and the

glasses through which I am seeing the image is also clean without distorting

the image.

Vedanta provides that mirror reflecting my true nature, provided I know how

to see that image. That is why it is called darshana that which makes me to

see myself. However, I need proper illumination to see the reflection

clearly and that is where a teacher comes in. Since my notion of myself is

different from the Vedantic vision of myself and because there is a large

disparity between the two, I need a proper illumination to see clearly. It

is like x-ray photograph that penetrates my body to show me, my internal

structure. Obviously, I need a trained Radiologist to interpret correctly

what one sees in terms of defects in relation to what is correct, and he

should also be an expert physician to suggest correct medication to remove

the problems so that I am healthy and happy with myself. Adhyaaropa/apavaada

discussions that are going on essentially trying to interpret what oneself

is in comparison that what Vedanta says what one is, how that disparity

arises and how the study of Vedanta helps to remedy the situation.

Besides proper illumination, I have to make sure that my glasses are also

clean so that my vision is not distorted. That is what we call as chitta

suddhi. We cannot blame the mirror nor the light if the glasses through

which I am looking at the image are not clean. Cleaning the mind is what

Karma yoga does, and is being discussed currently in the list.

So my friend, if you want to know about yourself, and if you are really

serious about it, the first thing to do is to contemplate on 1) how to

cleanse my mind so that it is relatively clean (this is done by karma yoga),

2) approach a right teacher who can illumine the Vedanta and 3) study

Vedanta and reflect on it until the truth is internalized completely and

fully. The discussions that are going on help who are already exposed to

some extent to the Vedantic knowledge. By mutual discussion, one arrives at

doubt-free knowledge. That is called mananam. By continuous contemplation

on that truth via study, discussion, contemplation is required until one is

firmly established in that truth. How long one has to do that – until that

question of ‘how long’ itself is dissolved.

If you feel that the discussion is way beyond your grasp of the knowledge,

the best thing I suggest is to raise even basic issues that you want to

learn and I am sure there are very many who can share their knowledge to

help you. The purpose of this list serve is exactly that – to learn from

each other through discussions.

> Again , i am just a neophyte and apologize for my ignorant

>words.But will anyone plainly explain me if is there any need for

>intellectual probing into Brahman if its a matter of REALIZING.

> Is truth to be 'understood' or 'seen'?

To an answer this question, I suggest that you can down load from the list

achieves the Brahmasuutra files particularly on the adhyaasa bhaashhya. That

will clarify the nature of the problem, and how an inquiry is needed to

solve the problem and what type of inquiry is needed, etc.

Hope this helps.

Hari OM!

Sadananda

_______________

Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!

http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/

January 8, 2006

I fully agree with Sri Kuntimaddi Sadananda that in Advaita you have to look out

for yourselves. It is said that for your disease you haveto take medicine

yourself .So I think it is wise to listen to what these enlightened souls are

saying and imbibe what you think is the best for you. The ultimate truth will do

the rest for you. Thank you G J Nair.

Kuntimaddi Sadananda <k_sadananda wrote:

>Aniruddha

>Sir,

>

> Now this comes from a person who is ignorant. I have been reading the

>posts from u guys and they seem so esoteric.I am very much interested in

>the knowledge of the Self.However, from what i figure out is that such

>Knowledge and way the people of this group relate to the subject makes me

>marvel at their genious.But is this genious a result of genuine Self

>Realization or is this just an attempt to prove Intellectual Superiority.

Shree Aniruddhaji

PraNaams.

I am happy to know that you are very much interested in the knowledge of the

self.

[ ... ]

January 8, 2006

Sir,[reference to Sadanandaji]

Its really wonderful on how a man of such knowledge starts with Pranams to a

neophyte fellows like me.....

Anyways,since you have instructed to find a teacher who can correctly clear

my doubts ,the next question is the selection of Teacher.

Since the Vedas define Guru as the One who is Knower of Self,how can a person

like me identify such a Knower,since the Knower wont look any different!

Also , in this age of commercialism there are more conmen then godmen.So

in this maze ,should i wait for divine grace to provide me a Guru or just

continue on my way of reading books.

Again, I apologize for my silly questions as they might seem to people here

who might be highly evolved spiritually.

Just to give an idea on how my journey started:

I was probably about 10 years of age , when the thought of death struck me.It

seemed to terrify me since i started equating Death to "Non-Existance".

The disappearance or non-existance of a living entity on death just stirred

me.

For the very thought of this feeling of "me" not existing after death was

unimaginable!

So i started finding ways to know more about this phenomenon of death.Science

was not really convincing and fell too short.Spirituality was the only school of

thought that dealt with it comprehensively.

So kept on reading , till i came across a seminar by ISCON in Mumbai[the hari

krishna guys].They had such strong arguments to the existance of GOD and and

that of SOUL that it removed almost all of my reluctance and hesitation to

ingrain the idea of GOD.But, the thought of a ruler of universe who governs all

souls was not easilt digestible.Probably my Big Ego!

Nevertheless i kept on reading , till i came across the teachings of

Upanishads.These proved to be immensly thought provoking and yet challenging me

to claim my divinity as a BIRTH RIGHT!

I used to spend many nights just thinking about these things [many times at

the expense of my studies]....so much so that my desires started to sublimate.

I dont meant they have gone, but their intensity has reduced substantially

[this might be the answer to my mom's worry on her son not too much interested

in

any discussions that are not spiritual...i just cant attend to those!!...they

just seem useless...i donno why?]

But the idea of me being an awareness and not the body was something i

indulged in religiously.I started to self-observe.Even the act of eating a meal

was done with a sense of non-doership.This led to some periods during which i

actually started feeling that "I" was observing "ME"...

So this is where i am right now in my spiritual evolution...

I would be grateful if you can assess my situation and suggest me hereon to my

next step on how to find a GURU.

January 9, 2006

Hi

Firstly, I don't want to call you as neophyte, I think there are No

neophyte as for as advaita is considerd, It might be there with other

religions, as you need to know something "other", as for as Advaita is

considerd, there is no need to know other, it is to know I and the

beauty is here that You always know it, but only its been coverdup due

to Maya, so you lean not to understand I, but to remove Maya.

(Darpane mukha darshanaat, shaastre aatma darshanam)

The way you see your self in Mirror, shatras shows "You" only.

As some of the members are pointed out, I also think it doesn't end

with knowing I, but goes beyond to say everything is Me, which will be

further concluded sayting that "There are no two things", Everything

is only one, but for us whose indriyas are made up of panchabhootas,

can only see that and that's why we see the difference.

So if you understand this last point, then yu will not think of which

place you are, whether we are in commercial world or not, or I am

ignorant, so I need to study a lot and all these things, these are all

Mitya. Don't even getinto it. For Knowldge seekers there was no time

in the Histroy where they couldn't acheive it, neither there will be

one in future, but its in ones mind.

Seeking of Guru:

I think you are leaving in one more adyasa, you are thinking Guru

means, a physical person who will teach by sitting next to you. Guru

can be anything, which captures your heart. I have learnnt lot from

this list, which is Guru for me. Read the life of Dattatreya, you will

understand what guru is?

neophyte or why Learn?

Why do you want to learn then? once I understand that there are not

two things in this universe why study?, The answer is beautifully

given by BG.

1.We need to live in this world, we need to intearct with this world,

so we need to learn how the world behaves so we need to learn

2.Animals are Curious, we are all curious, to know what's happenning

in this universe? even If somebody teaches advaita, you will still ask

for proof? To explain to other you need to lean(Why to teach other,

the 1 point is the answer)

3.Extensibility, or Prooving your theory in differemnt circumstances:

This is I think what we are doing in this group. We are applying this

theory to various situation, with different perceptions, and trying to

see whether we can learn anything which makes it better to explain.

Even shankara did his Vijaya Yatra, to proove what he learnt, why he

did, BG again come to answer, you can't be in this world without doing

something.

Thanks

Prashanth

January 10, 2006

--- Aniruddha <anides_84 wrote:

> Since the Vedas define Guru as the One who is Knower of Self,how

> can a person like me identify such a Knower,since the Knower wont look

> any different!

Shree Aniruddhaji

PraNaams again.

AniruddhaH suraanando govindo govindam patiH| says

VishnusahasranaamaavaLi

Anniruddha is Lord Vishnu himself, who pervades everything. If we cannot

prostrate to Him whom else, we can do that. Everything is Him except

the name and form. Name is only for a form since we cannot name formless

one. Carrying even His name, you are indeed blessed. There is not much

for you to do now other than recognize that you are Him indeed.

You are not really neophyte fellow as you claim yourself to be. You

seems to be quite familiar with Vedanta. Nevertheless, I will try to

address the issues that you have raised to the best of my understanding.

How to find a Guru? You are right. Shaastras says Guru is the one who

has 1) realized and 2) one who is able to communicate that knowledge in

the language that a student can understand and appreciate.

Unfortunately there is no litmus test to show who is realized. Hence,

scripture also say that it is only by God’s grace that one is lead to a

guru who can guide. God’s grace is nothing but ones own past merits or

punya. Which implies that one has to discover that he/she/it is my guru.

Here are some guidelines that are provided. A mahatma is one in whose

presence you feel peaceful since he only radiates love. Guru is the one

whom you feel that you have received the greatest help in resolving your

spiritual doubts. Essentially, you have to discover the guru, who, you

feel, has immensely helped you in setting you in the right path. Right

path is that where you feel solace and feel that your mind has become

quiet and peaceful to receive the highest knowledge. Do not evaluate

someone as realized or not. Our limited minds are not capable of doing

that. It is better to leave that to Him.

The best way is to keep your mind free and fresh all the time. Follow

spiritual saadhana that help to purify the mind. This means 1) change

the direction of the thoughts, 2) change the quality of the thoughts 3)

reduced the quantity of thoughts – recognizing that most thoughts are

centered on the sense objects outside. Redirection means bringing in

the Lord or substituting those object thoughts with the thought of the

Lord– Please study the Karma yoga series where devotion and devotee is

discussed.

When your mind is ready, it becomes Lord’s responsibility to send the

type of guru you need (not what you want, but what you need). You will

discover that guru only when your mind is ready to receive. Therefore

all one can do is to open your mind and keep it ready. Swami

Chinmayanandaji used to say, “the flower does not have to go and hunt

for bee, the bee shall come when the flower is ready with its full glory

– that is the law of Nature. Lord will send an appropriate guru when

the disciple is ready”. One easy way is to devote time for sat sangh.

Do not try to grade mahaatmas or judge them whether they have realized

or not – just learn whatever you mind can learn, leaving the rest. Keep

asking questions after contemplating on those questions and Lord will

see that your questions get resolved either internally or through

external aids.

Meditate on Him and on His glories, everyday, setting aside a fixed time

and place for your meditation. Be sincere and be honest and live a life

with no internal conflicts – that is just simplify your life. This will

reduce unnecessary burden on your mind otherwise the mind gets

preoccupied with lot of junk which in the final analysis has no meaning.

Sat sangh is that which makes your mind quiet – not sleepy but quite and

vigilant concentrating on Him. Good thoughts, good books, good company-

avoiding avenues that really waste internal energies.

Whatever spiritual studies available for you, make use of them to the

best you can. If not start a study group at your home inviting like

minded people who are interested in the study of Vedanta. Discussion

format is recognized the best format for learning Vedanta. This list

serve is started with that idea only where discussions on Geeta and

other texts are taking place. Study and write in your words what that

means – when you talk and write, it will help you to crystallize your

thoughts – Now you can see – people write here not to exhibit their

scholarship but to express their understanding. That is the best way of

learning Vedanta. Whether someone reads or not at least you will read

twice, once before you post and other after it come out. This is one of

the reasons why the list moderators discourage just coping and pasting

and posting just that.

For me, when I write, the concepts become clearer to me. If there is any

inconsistency, it will show up – at least, there are other learned

members here who can point out the errors in my understanding. That is

the greatest benefit of learning Vedanta in discussion format.

> Also , in this age of commercialism there are more conmen then

> godmen.So

> in this maze ,should i wait for divine grace to provide me a Guru or

> just continue on my way of reading books.

Yes – instead of reading the books and keeping quite – write your

understanding in your words and discuss the topic in your study group or

post it here and discuss here, raising any questions you have. Note

whether somebody answers or not, when you write the questions, your mind

will start looking for an answer and it will find at one place or other,

later if not immediately. Study of the scriptures is essential for

everyone – that was discussed as Rishi yagna. In the beginning, the

study is for learning. Later the study itself is contemplation on the

truth expounded in the scripture. One has to try to see the truth right

then there while studying, not intellectually but factually.

Do not judge others as commercial gurus and some as noble gurus. We are

not in position to judge them. The best thing is if your mind gets

agitated in some company, then it is not ready to learn. In Uddhava

Geeta – Krishana mentions about an Avadhuuta brahmana teaching Yadu

maharaaj – The Avadhuuta says that he learned from 24 gurus. It is not

that they are teaching him but he was learning from their behavior what

to do or what not to do. It means that Avadhuuta has become sensitive

enough to learn from them, while discarding things that he does not

need. That is what swan does – take the milk leaving the water and

Goddess Saraswati rides on that – implication is that knowledge has to

be extracted using the mind like a swan.

> Again, I apologize for my silly questions as they might seem to

> people here

> who might be highly evolved spiritually.

My teacher used to tell me there is no silly question in Vedanta. The

only silly or stupid question is the one that was not asked. Let us not

worry or make gradation in terms of who is highly evolved and who are

less. Everyone is the incarnation of the Lord – Krishna says

– maya tata midam sarvam jagat avyakta muurtinaa|

mastaani sarva bhuutaani na ca aham teshu avasthitaH||

I pervade this entire universe in unmanifested form| all beings are in

me but I am not in them|| Let us see His glory manifested to various

degrees beatifying the universe. Variety is the creation. No leaf in the

same tree looka like the other – and that is the beauty. Beauty is in

the variety. Who is evolved who is not –does it matter when everything

is His glory. Let us bask in that glory. Krishna says 'pasyam me

yogamaiswaram' - look at my glory Arjuna.

> Just to give an idea on how my journey started:

>

> Nevertheless i kept on reading , till i came across the teachings of

> Upanishads.These proved to be immensly thought provoking and yet

> challenging me to claim my divinity as a BIRTH RIGHT!

Sir – you are blessed indeed. Lord himself is providing himself as your

guru. What else you need. Now start seeing Him as teacher in every form

including so called ‘commercial gurus’. When you are His desendence how

can He provide you with wrong teachers. He has provided you with sharp

intellect only to take good and leave that is not. Only take the milk

and leave the water – others may need that water too for their survival.

Every experience has advaitic essence. Death experience and witnessing

that is the most powerful experience showing that one is not the body.

Whole Geeta Upadesha starts with Krishna emphasizing that death is only

a change and recognize that you are not the body but something divine.

We need to learn from these experiences.

shRinvantu veshve amRitasya putraH| is the scream of our Rishiies – List

you all – the sons of Immortality’ – Sir when you recognized your

inheritance, how can you call yourself as neophyte.

> I used to spend many nights just thinking about these things

...

> I would be grateful if you can assess my situation and suggest me

> hereon to my next step on how to find a GURU.

Sir, my sashTaanga praNaams to you. You are blessed indeed. Experience

of Death is the most powerful experience since death is considered as

the greatest fear. If one can witness that one has recognized that one

never dies. You are indeed immortal and that is your birth right.

You have asked me assess the situation. Who am I to assess your

situation? Just leave it to Him. He is teaching you all ready what he

taught to Arjuna. Let Him guide you. Try to see Him in every thing – be

a full time devotee – if can study the devotee and devotion role.

I may suggest one more thing, if I can. There is Vedanta discussions

(past discussion where someone has collected my posts on this and other

list serves) and stored in advaitin archives. You can download and

study that if it is helpful. I am trying to put that in a book form

organizing them on the basis of subjects. Hopefully, it will be done

one day soon, when He blesses.

Hope I have addressed all the issues you have raised.

Hari OM!

Sadananda

January 10, 2006

Sir [reference to Shri Sadanandji]

This is indeed magical...My heart seems to blossom on reading your

replies.Your words seem to just pour into my heart.No words..just this, that you

are indeed of highest noble stature.I guess a million pranams to you sir.

Even though i feel so undeserving of your praise...Praise makes even a fool

like me feel good about himself.

I shall follow your word.

World needs more noble personalities like you.

Just goes to show the infallibility of the Vedas in engendering purity of

mind.

Again, since i dont know much about sanskrit...or i would have used a verse ..

Nevertheless...You words are indeed nectar.

kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: --- Aniruddha

<anides_84 wrote: