Truth and transcendentalism

[Guest guest]

Dear Advaitins,

 

Namaste,

 

In the recent discussion there was a point where Shri Shankar Ramanji

has mentioned that a transcendentalist need not be truthful. He has

quoted from JK who tells that if a transcendentalist utters a lie it

will not affect the purity of mind of such a person.

 

In the scriptures it is said that knower of brahman is established in

truth. His mind will be so pure that whatever he wishes comes true.

If such is the case can such a person utter a lie? Is there any

example in the lives of Sri Shankaracharya or Sri Ramana or Sri

Ramakrishna who uttered a lie deliberately?

 

Swami Vivekananda says that both good and bad are the conditioned

manifestations of god. Good is the nearer coating and if one has to

reach the transcendental truth one has to first overcome bad

tendencies by good ones and ultimately on has to go beyond the good

also.

 

Any explanations?

 

HARI OM TAT SAT

 

Yours in the Lord,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

Dear sir,

PraNaams.

 

1. About a 'lie' - It serves an intended purpose only if the listener thinks

it is truth, even though the fellow who is telling a lie knows that it is a

lie.

 

2. If everybody lies - then it has no value, then everybody knows that

everybody lies..

 

3. When one lies, one person that definitely knows that it is lie is the

speaker. When he is telling a lie, his intellect knows it is not true but

the intellect is overpowered by mind, which lies. Therefore one is affected

in most subtle manner is the speaker himself. There is an internal conflict

in himself.

 

4. Therefore, one can lie only when there is a conflict from higher dharma

or to protect higher dharma. For example to save a life, one can lie.

 

5. Now, to reduce the internal conflicts, saadhak is asked to fallow the

truth. Not to lie becomes a value for him - it becomes an assimilated value

as saadhana matures.

 

6. A realized person follows dharma naturally since during the saadhak stage

it became an assimilated value.

 

7. If at all a circumstance arises for jiivanmukta to lie, it will be only

for some higher purpose i.e. to establish higher dharma, since he has no

selfishness whatsoever.

 

8. Without qualifying that saying that a realized person can lie since it

would not affect him is incorrect.

 

9. yadyat aacarati sreshhTaH .. Whatever a noble person does, the others

follow - Therefore a realized person should not lie - or will not lie.

 

 

>Dear Advaitins,

>

>Namaste,

>

>In the recent discussion there was a point where Shri Shankar Ramanji

>has mentioned that a transcendentalist need not be truthful. He has

>quoted from JK who tells that if a transcendentalist utters a lie it

>will not affect the purity of mind of such a person.

 

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[Guest guest]

Kuntimaddi Sadananda <k_sadananda wrote: Dear sir,

PraNaams.

 

 

 

 

 

>Dear Advaitins,

>

>Namaste,

>

>In the recent discussion there was a point where Shri Shankar Ramanji

>has mentioned that a transcendentalist need not be truthful. He has

>quoted from JK who tells that if a transcendentalist utters a lie it

>will not affect the purity of mind of such a person.

 

Dear sir,

Truth belongs to a realm beyond the words, the words being the

only instrument to convey it, there being a yawning gulf between that which is

and the word expressing it. What I might have meant to convey- I lost track of

the discussion- is that an enlightened person must be functioning without any

programmed intellect, whatever he speaks coming from the transcendental void,

the listeners responding to it from their conditioned minds, and coming to

conclusions. At the present level of our functioning in the field of thought,

we cannot understand the realm of truth, except what has been conveyed to us

through the scriptures, which in our unconscious biased ways we may try to

interpret to our advantage. To put it in a nutshell, as long as we function

from a cent re of individuality, which is a fragmentation from the whole, we

cannot make any judgment of anybody, leave alone the enlightened beings. It is

worthwhile to meditate on the aphoristic sutra of

patanjali to the effect that in the Savitarka Samadhi there is an

intermingling of the word, the idea, and the intended object, and that only

when the distinction between these three are known, would the object shine in

its pristine purity bereft of the conventional memory, the object revealed in

such a case not constituting the Universal, nor being capable of known by any

valid means of knowledge other than the truth-bearing consciousness. What I

might have meant in my correspondence is that a transcendentalist need not be

truthful in the conventional sense of duality to which are all subject. But

we had better make a pause over these matters. I am afraid I might have uttered

some untruth in my exposition, which if it were so I would only have to be

aware of it choicelessly, which realm I have not so far understood in spite of

my long years of meditation and study of the masters both conventional and

unconventional. I may apologize for any egotistic statement that

I might have made, and be making still, being worried about which only I

choose to refrain from writing, but to read the well-meaning utterances of many

of the sincere truth seekers.

Yours faithfully,

Sankarraman

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[Guest guest]

Namaste Satsanghis:

 

First let me acknowledge the excellent response by Sadaji on this

important subject topic. Sadaji has already explained the full

significance of the `Truth' and difference between truth and lies. In

this response, I want to focus what we is the implied rule for we the

Truth Seekers? I believe that is one of the Core topic and quite

relevant for all us in the list. .

 

Last year, we had a discussion on a similar question on the virtues

of speaking the Truth. I don't recollect the exact post # but I do

remember what I stated at that time. Here is the famous Sanskrit

formula for speaking truth with an approximate English translation.

 

Sathyam Bruyath (speak the Truth)

Priyam Bruyath (speak sweetly and courteously)

Na Bruyath Sathyamapriyam (never utter the truth unpleasantly)

 

The first rule declares the moral value, the second states the social

value and last rule expresses the spiritual value. The last

expression is the ideal situation and this is our goal. In order to

achieve this noble goal, we need strong faith and conviction to the

famous Sanskrit phrase – SatyamavaJayati (Truth ultimately will lead

us Victory). Mahatma Gandhiji is often quoted to be a modern day

Role-model, who believed and practiced "Satyamavajayati." The reason

that we seek the Truth is very much emphasized by the above

statement.

 

Often the question arises, What is the Truth? The answer to this

question depends on the facts gathered. As a practicing

Statistician, hypothetically truth can be tested using the factual

information collected to make a judgment. More facts will lead closer

to the Truth and judgment about the Truth will become unnecessary

when we know all the facts! At this point, the question, "What is

Truth" gets dissolved and that is the victory being implied

by "Satyamavajayati."

 

Warmest regards,

 

Ram Chandran

 

advaitin, "Vinayaka" <vinayaka_ns> wrote:

>

> In the recent discussion there was a point where Shri Shankar

Ramanji

> has mentioned that a transcendentalist need not be truthful. He has

> quoted from JK who tells that if a transcendentalist utters a lie

it

> will not affect the purity of mind of such a person.

>

[Guest guest]

Vinayaka <vinayaka_ns wrote:

Dear Advaitins,

 

Namaste,

 

In the recent discussion there was a point where Shri Shankar Ramanji

has mentioned that a transcendentalist need not be truthful. He has

quoted from JK who tells that if a transcendentalist utters a lie it

will not affect the purity of mind of such a person.

 

Dear Vinayakji,

I am not interested in being a devil's

advocate to J.K to protect his purity. J.K has asked people to question

everything, not believe a single thing by virtue of its having been

traditionally sanctified. What I understand to be the import of the aforesaid

statement of J.K is that he doesn't be live in a truth as a conceptualized

thing. He taught only awareness and attention in the light of which you see

everything unmediated by your previous knowledge. From the viewpoint of J.K

that psychologically there is no division in thought as an observer and the

observed, truth is something beyond the category of thought to be practiced

which is only a conventional truth. J.K has abundantly clarified what is Truth,

what is Actuality, which is Reality in his discussion with the famous

scientist-philosopher Bohm. This work is available on line. Still, I don't want

to worship J.K, nor agree or disagree with what he says which is his

responsibility.

J.K, I think, gives more emphasis on being aware of everything without

judgment, or interpretation, without trying to arrive at an opposite as in the

light of wisdom truth is not a pre-determined entity, but consists in living

moment to moment with what is. If you find it worth your while you can go

through the chapter, 'Truth and Lie', in the book, ' First and Last Freedom',

which is available on line in the site. Incidentally, there is an account in

the life of Gurumaharaj of his having required water to be procured for

purposes of defecation, but subsequently not having had the urge for that, but

wanting to be truthful to his need felt still practicing the semblance of the

act. I don't understand this. http://www.bartleby.com/268/authindex.html

http://tchl.freeweb.hu/

yours truthfully,

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Ref Post 29831 ( Sri Sadananda's post)

 

Namaste sir:

 

KS :

 

( . About a 'lie' - It serves an intended purpose only if the

listener thinks it is truth, even though the fellow who is telling a

lie knows that it is a lie.)

 

PS :

 

This type of 'lying' is resorted to during War times when the

government issues statistics about war Casualities on either side.

Thus , there are always more casualties on the enemy side making the

public believe this is the Truth! This is to keep the morale high.

 

KS writes:

 

(When one lies, one person that definitely knows that it is lie is

the speaker. When he is telling a lie, his intellect knows it is not

true but the intellect is overpowered by mind, which lies. Therefore

one is affected in most subtle manner is the speaker himself. There

is an internal conflict in himself.)

 

ps:

 

This is called 'Dharma Sankatam' - This is the situation Karna was in

when he lied to Parasurama that Karna was a Brahmin. This is because

Parasurama hated Kshatriyas and would not accept a kshatriya as a

disciple . Karna was a Kshatriya. We all know the story of Karna's

ananya guru bhakti and how he silently bore the pain and the bleeding

that resulted from a bee sting. But Parasurama could not forgive

Karna's treachery and cursed him.

 

Ks writes:

 

( Therefore, one can lie only when there is a conflict from higher

dharma or to protect higher dharma. For example to save a life, one

can lie.)

 

PS:

 

This is the 'Truth'. Once again, one is reminded of the famous

incident during the 'KURUKSHETRA' War when Yuuddhistra uttered those

Famous lines 'ASHWATTAMA' kunjaro hataha. On hearing which,

Dronacharya became so disoriented that Arjuna seized the chance to

kill the mighty Dronacharya. . Ashwattama was Drona's son as well as

the name of the elephant. Yuddishtra deliberately uttered the

words 'kunjaro Hattaha' in softer tones while uttering the name

Ashwattama in a louder tone. In a way , he did not lie because the

elephant named Ashwattama did die but Ashwattama , Drona's son, was

very much alive. This is one example of 'lying' to uphold dharma.

Yuddhistra did this on Krishna's advice.

 

Ks writes:

 

( yadyat aacarati sreshhTaH .. Whatever a noble person does, the

others follow - Therefore a realized person should not lie - or will

not lie.)

 

This is the Life of Satya and Dharma that the father of the Nation

Mahatma Gandhi Followed. For, Gandhiji, Truth was god and God was

Truth. His life was itself a message of this twin principles of

Dharma and Satya.

 

One question I have for members - why did Peter deny JESUS thrice?

Why did Peter Lie? What purpose did it serve?

 

Thank you for a Thought-provoking post, Ksji.

 

REF POST 29835 (Sri Ramachandran's post )

 

Thank you for quoting this verse . It is beautiful every time it is

recited.

 

(Sathyam Bruyath (speak the Truth)

Priyam Bruyath (speak sweetly and courteously)

Na Bruyath Sathyamapriyam (never utter the truth unpleasantly))

 

Sri Ram writes :

 

(The first rule declares the moral value, the second states the social

value and last rule expresses the spiritual value. The last

expression is the ideal situation and this is our goal. In order to

achieve this noble goal, we need strong faith and conviction to the

famous Sanskrit phrase – SatyamavaJayati (Truth ultimately will lead

us Victory). )

 

This explanation is quite Uniquue. I have Never seen this

interpretation.

 

Sri Ram Continues:

 

( As a practicing Statistician, hypothetically truth can be tested

using the factual information collected to make a judgment. More

facts will lead closer to the Truth and judgment about the Truth will

become unnecessary when we know all the facts! )

 

May I make a lighthearted comment about Statisics - Was it the

former British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli who once

said, "There are three types of lies: Lies, Damned lies and

Statistics"

 

and Statistics is based on sampling and random sampling. There are

always 'errors' involved in sampling.

 

There are lies and white lies. There Lies the Truth. ( any pun

intended is unintentional).

 

Regards,

 

PS - Btw, thank you for accepting me into the home and heart of

Advaita.

[Guest guest]

Namaste, All

Pardon me, but I am unable to understand what is this "transcendentalism" or

the business of "transending"

All I can understand is we must "end" the "trance" we are in due to ignorance

about our own Swaroopa and then start living the precious life we are blessed

with, always appreciating that Truth about us.

Hari Om

 

 

R. S. Mani

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>

> Namaste, All

> Pardon me, but I am unable to understand what is

this "transcendentalism" or the business of "transending"

> All I can understand is we must "end" the "trance" we are in due

to ignorance about our own Swaroopa and then start living the

precious life we are blessed with, always appreciating that Truth

about us.

 

Namaste,

 

Why not just consider it as a synonym for the definition you

have given?

 

 

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

 

transcend

 

Main Entry: tran·scend

Pronunciation: tran(t)-'send

Function: verb

Etymology: Middle English, from Latin transcendere to climb across,

transcend, from trans- + scandere to climb -- more at SCAN

transitive senses

1 a : to rise above or go beyond the limits of b : to triumph over

the negative or restrictive aspects of : OVERCOME c : to be prior

to, beyond, and above (the universe or material existence)

2 : to outstrip or outdo in some attribute, quality, or power

intransitive senses : to rise above or extend notably beyond

ordinary limits

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran wrote: Dear sirs and ladies,

I have made an error in quoting the website containing

the complete works of jiddu krishnamurthy. The correct site is the following.

 

Sankarraman

http://tchl.freeweb.hu/

advaitin/messages

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Visit your group "advaitin" on the web.

 

advaitin

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Vinayaka <vinayaka_ns wrote:

Dear Advaitins,

 

Namaste,

 

 

 

 

If such is the case can such a person utter a lie? Is there any

example in the lives of Sri Shankaracharya or Sri Ramana or Sri

Ramakrishna who uttered a lie deliberately?

 

Dear vinayaka,

There is no deliberation in a jnani, the

jnani having left far behind the volitional entity, or to be more accurate, in

the light of attention and choiceless awareness, the volitional activity having

been known to be false, which is not the response of the dualistic mind. Such

a jnani is not concerned about what is truth or untruth to know which the

discriminating mind, a product of avidya, is required. Holding on to truth or

not speaking a lie are all disciplines cultivated by individuals functioning

from a cent re of individuality. The jnani, having realized in one stroke of

perception the unreality of volitional mechanism, abides in stillness and

functions only from that stillness, all utterances proceeding from him not

being anything other than truth, in spite of contrary position that might be

inferred by ignorance-bound individuals.

with regards,

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Namaste, Sri Sunderji,

Thank you for the meaning of "transcend". Is there any Sanskrit equivalent to

this word? I would be grateful if you could kindly let me know.

With warm regards and respects

Mani

 

Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh wrote:

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote:

>

> Namaste, All

> Pardon me, but I am unable to understand what is

this "transcendentalism" or the business of "transending"

> All I can understand is we must "end" the "trance" we are in due

to ignorance about our own Swaroopa and then start living the

precious life we are blessed with, always appreciating that Truth

about us.

 

Namaste,

 

Why not just consider it as a synonym for the definition you

have given?

 

 

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

 

transcend

 

Main Entry: tran·scend

Pronunciation: tran(t)-'send

Function: verb

Etymology: Middle English, from Latin transcendere to climb across,

transcend, from trans- + scandere to climb -- more at SCAN

transitive senses

1 a : to rise above or go beyond the limits of b : to triumph over

the negative or restrictive aspects of : OVERCOME c : to be prior

to, beyond, and above (the universe or material existence)

2 : to outstrip or outdo in some attribute, quality, or power

intransitive senses : to rise above or extend notably beyond

ordinary limits

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, "Kuntimaddi Sadananda"

<k_sadananda@h...> wrote:

>

> Dear sir,

> PraNaams.

>

> 1. About a 'lie' .........

 

 

Dear Sada Ji,

 

Namaste,

 

Excellent explnation indeed!!!

 

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTH

 

 

Yours in the Lord,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

Kuntimaddi Sadananda <k_sadananda wrote: Dear sir,

PraNaams.

 

Dear sir,

Ramakrishna did not to the idea that a lie

could be uttered under extenuating circumstances. He made it an hundred

percent objective, empirical reality, and did not seem to lab our under all

these philosophical, analytical definitions of truth and lie. He practiced

truth only in the context of what does it mean to a lay individual. The

metaphysical core of truth seems to be the realization of the absence of a cent

re vis-a-vis other such cent res which situation alone creates dread in the

individual making him pursue untruth. Unless this consummation is reached, the

truth pursued is only a yogic discipline still admitting of duality. It is only

in this context that the Upanishads quoted contains the aphoristic verse of

abandonment of both truth and untruth, that being at the level of non-duality.

The truth of non-duality cannot be discerned by the dualistic mind believing in

the reality of individuality. In the light of this

absolute position Ramakrishna's adherence to truth baffles all understanding.

Looked at purely intellectually, it might seem to border on the ridiculous. The

petty intellect, however, cannot plumb the depths of truth. All pronouncements

made about truth from such a standpoint are only intellectual satisfying the

curiosity and thirst for knowledge.

with kind regards,

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

advaitin, Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran>

wrote:

>

>

>

> Kuntimaddi Sadananda <k_sadananda@h...> wrote: Dear sir,

> PraNaams.

>

> Dear sir,

> Unless this consummation is reached, the

truth pursued is only a yogic discipline still admitting of duality.

It is only in this context that the Upanishads quoted contains the

aphoristic verse of abandonment of both truth and untruth, that

being at the level of non-duality. The truth of non-duality cannot

be discerned by the dualistic mind believing in the reality of

individuality.

 

Dear Shankar RamanJi,

 

What you have quoted is 100% ture. When Sri Ramakrishna was initiated

into to advaita sadhana by Tota puri he was stuck at at a particular

level of duality. Perhaps the last stage. Where he said to his guru

that the loving form of divine mother appears before him whenever he

tried to concentrate on the absolute. Then when tota puri makes a

mark between the eyebrow with a piece of glass and told Sri

Ramakrishna to concentrate on the pain. This time gurumaharaj says

that he saw the form again but he cut the form into two with the help

of the sword of knowledge and his mind immediately rushed to the

absolute plane and he dwelt in that state for 3 days. This is the

testimony for your aforesaid statement that-- "The truth of non-

duality cannot be discerned by the dualistic mind believing in the

reality of individuality."

......................

 

 

In the light of this

> absolute position Ramakrishna's adherence to truth baffles all

understanding. Looked at purely intellectually, it might seem to

border on the ridiculous. The petty intellect, however, cannot plumb

the depths of truth. All pronouncements made about truth from such

a standpoint are only intellectual satisfying the curiosity and

thirst for knowledge.

 

 

But sir when the question comes to the relative plane there is an

order and law. Swami Vivekananda says that the inspired person cannot

act contrary to reason and this he says that should be test of

genuineness of the man who is claiming that he is inspired. If we

look at this world from the paramartika viewpoint everything

is "mithya".As Swami Paramarthanandaji puts it Jiva Jagat and

and....... Eshwara too! But if you take it from the vyavaharika

perspective there is are laws which cannot be transgressed and in the

vedanta sutras it is said that all the three are distinct in the

strictest sense. As you have said in your previous posting for such

mind deliberation is absolutely impossible. It is also implied that

the purity of mind is of the highest degree. Then how such a soul

will utter lie even if it is in the sense taken by the layman.

 

It is my firm conviction that knower of brahman cannot utter a lie in

any form. If you can give me examples of such acts in the life of the

masters i belive in like Sri Ramana Maharshi or Sri Ramakrishna then

i will have to study the topic further. Even if they lie for the sake

for dharma or for anything they will be bound by the karma of such

act and they have to forbear the consequences. Even if they are

incarnations as long as they are in the relative plane.

 

 

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

 

Yours in the Lord,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> with kind regards,

> Sankarraman

>

>

>

>

> Photos

> Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events,

holidays, whatever.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote

 

> Thank you for the meaning of "transcend". Is there any Sanskrit

equivalent to this word? I would be grateful if you could kindly let

me know.

 

Namaste Mani-ji,

 

In the Gita following words have been used:

 

atirichyate 2:34

atiitaH 4:22

vishiShyate 3:7, 5:2, 6:9, 7:17, 12:12

vyatitariShyasi 2:54

ativartate 6:44

samatiitya 14:26

atiito bhavati 14:21

atitaranti 13:25

atyeti 8:28

 

atikraantaH Brihadarn.upan. 1:3:12

atyeti " 3:5:1

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

[Guest guest]

Namaste, Sri Sundarji,

Very kind of you to give so many *similar* sanskrit words for "transcend".

Hari om and respects

Mani

 

advaitins <moderators wrote:

advaitin, "R.S.MANI" <r_s_mani> wrote

 

> Thank you for the meaning of "transcend". Is there any Sanskrit

equivalent to this word? I would be grateful if you could kindly let

me know.

 

Namaste Mani-ji,

 

In the Gita following words have been used:

 

atirichyate 2:34

atiitaH 4:22

vishiShyate 3:7, 5:2, 6:9, 7:17, 12:12

vyatitariShyasi 2:54

ativartate 6:44

samatiitya 14:26

atiito bhavati 14:21

atitaranti 13:25

atyeti 8:28

 

atikraantaH Brihadarn.upan. 1:3:12

atyeti " 3:5:1

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Vinayaka <vinayaka_ns wrote: --- In

advaitin, Ganesan Sankarraman <shnkaran>

wrote:

>

>

>

> Kuntimaddi Sadananda <k_sadananda@h...> wrote: Dear sir,

> PraNaams.

>

>

 

 

Dear Shankar RamanJi,

It is my firm conviction that knower of brahman cannot utter a lie in

any form. If you can give me examples of such acts in the life of the

masters i belive in like Sri Ramana Maharshi or Sri Ramakrishna then

i will have to study the topic further. Even if they lie for the sake

for dharma or for anything they will be bound by the karma of such

act and they have to forbear the consequences. Even if they are

incarnations as long as they are in the relative plane.

 

Dear Vinayaka,

Apropos your firm conviction that a knower of Brahman will not

utter lies in any form, are you sure that you have fathomed the depth of

truth? What is the standpoint from which you make the statement that a knower

will not utter any lie? Do you think that a knower is in a position to make

distinction between truth and untruth in the light of his realization that

nothing alien exists? According to J.K, only a mind that lives in a state of

inner contradiction that has the need to lie, and that truth is not the

opposite of lie, it being beyond all antinomies of the thought process. From

only a purely empirical perception based on the reality of thought as an end in

itself, the question of lie arises. Truth is an inner state of the realization

of the one being which cannot be guaged by outer manifestations. The

Upanishads say that the one who says that he knows does not know it; only the

one who does not know it knows. Could we interpret it through our

discursive knowledge? Once again I would like to say that a mind living in

truth abides in a state of awareness which is choiceless and non-judgemental.

Let us try to know it without any polemics, subjectively instead of trying to

find scientific and statistical data of realized individuals having uttered a

lie etc. The realized people live from moment to moment, their language being

very vulnerable lest the followers should create a belief system from what they

say which is not truth. Excuse me from writing anything further on this

subject.

With warm regards,

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

 

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