Guest guest Posted January 23, 2006 Report Share Posted January 23, 2006 Ref: Message: 3 Sun, 22 Jan 2006 05:02:39 -0000 "Chittaranjan Naik" <chittaranjan_naik Re: Brahman, the Material cause Dear Sri Subrahmanianji, Refer your post 30015 (your response to Sri Srinivas Kotekal) advaitin, V Subrahmanian <subrahmanian_v> wrote: There is an irony in your opposition to the Dvaita doctrine of material causality considering that your own interpretation of material causality (as explained by you in your last message titled Vikshepa Shakti) is closer to the position of Dvaita than to that of Advaita. In your efforts to justify the (unconditional) mithyatva of the world, you differentiate between the effect that is 'same as Brahman' and the effect that appears to be different from Brahman i.e., the objects of this world. Let us see how such a differentiation in 'effect' leads to Dvaita. Firstly, you would be ignoring the fact that (according to Advaita) the denotation of the word 'effect' cannot be nullified without the word 'effect' itself getting nullified. But the meaning of the word 'effect' which you use in the phrase 'the effect that is same as Brahman' is not in fact the meaning of the word 'effect' because effects such as cow, sun, moon, world, etc which are denoted by the word 'effect' have lost their character of being cow, sun, moon, world, etc in the way you use the term by saying that it is an effect that is 'same as Brahman' but different from the objects of the world. In order to be consistent with the denotation of words, you will have to coin a new word for the so-called 'effect' that is 'same as Brahman', but then its referent will not be the same referent that the word 'effect' has (such as the objects of the world). The denotation of a word has to remain consistent if your statements are to be logically coherent. You use the word 'effect' with a dual connotation. The logical position that follows from this dual connotation is the Dvaita position that Brahman is NOT the material cause of the world. Let me explain this a bit further. According to Advaita, a word denoting an object has a single connotation. According to Dvaita, it has dual connotations. In Dvaita all words referring to objects refer to Brahman in the primary sense and to the objects in a secondary sense. If you read Madhva Bhashya on the sutras related to material causality, you will see that Sri Madhvacharya first says that Brahman is both the male principle and the female principle. He actually is speaking Advaita here. Then he uses the dual connotation of words to prove that Brahman is not the material cause of the universe. According to Madhvacharya, the female principle is the will of Brahman called prakriti, and Vishnu is the male principle, the Being that resides in Prakriti. Brahman is the unchanging principle, and prakriti is the changing principle, and words in their primary sense always point to Brahman, the unchanging principle, and in a secondary sense they point to the changing principle, the prakritic objects of the world. The changing principle in its undifferentiated state (prakriti, avyakta) is the material cause of the universe and Brahman is the efficient cause who brings about transformation through yoga- vritti-prakriti. Without the dual connotation, Dvaita will not stand. And now I see that you are holding on to the very principle (of dual connotation) that Dvaita uses to establish that Brahman is not the material cause of the universe, and you are arguing against Dvaita that Brahman is indeed the material cause of the universe. That is the irony that I saw. Warm regards, Chittaranjan Reply: Namaste Chittaji: A question was anticipated by me. And that from your good self. See, our minds have met !! The Acharya has maintained the position of the Vivartopaadaanatva of Brahman consistently and has thus not given room for ambiguity. In this very Taittiriya portion, the unmistakable signature of the Acharya can be seen: Tannaama-rupa-vyakaranam Brahmano bahubhavanam. Na anyathaa Niravayavasya Brahmano bahutvaapattiH upapadyate alpatvam vaa, yathaa Aakashasya alpatvam bahutvam cha vastvantara-krtam evam. AtaH tad (naama-rupa-vyakarana) dvaarenaiva atma bahu bhavati. Translation: ..by this differentiation of name and form, Brahman becomes manifold. In no other way can the partless Brahman become manifold or become small. It is, for instance, through other things that akasha appears small or manifold. So it is through them (name and form) alone that Atman becomes many. The Sayanabhashya for the above 'bahubhavanam=becoming many' portion of the Tai.Up, is: Just as a burning faggot, while remaining of one shape, puts on various shapes owing to some external causes (when it is shaken or whirled round), so also multiplicity of the Supreme Atman is due to the illusion of names and forms. So, it is only by way of manifesting Himself in these illusory names and forms that the Lord must have desired to be born. ..Indeed Brahman being without parts, it cannot be that He actually becomes manifold. Wherefore, it is only in a figurative sense that Brahman is spoken of as becoming manifold, in the same way that akasha becomes manifold through jars and other objects extending in space. (Sourced from 'The Taittiriya Upanishad' Translated by Sri Alladi Mahadeva Sastry, 1903, Samata Books p.519 -20) A standard gloss on the Taittiriya Bhashya, named Vanamaala, says: Parinaamitayaa bahutva asambhavaat, sva-adhyasta-nama-rupa-dvarenaiva Atma bahutvam aapadyate ityarthaH. Meaning: Because it is impossible for the Atma to become many through transformation, the explanation for 'becoming many' is: through the superimposed names and forms alone It became manifold. For the Brahma Sutra I.iv.7.26, 'AtmakrteH Parinaamaat' the Acharya considered the possibility of the word 'Parinaamaat' being taken as an independent sutra and commented upon this possibility too. The gloss Ratnaprabha, commenting on the word 'parinama' (of the Sutra), says: Atra sutre parinaama-shabdaH kaaryamaatra-paraH, na tu satya-kaaryaatmaka-parinaamaparaH; 'Tadananyatvam…(Sutra II.i.6.14) iti vivarta-vaadasya vakshyamaanatvaat. Meaning: The word parinaama connotes the effect alone and not any real transformation (of Brahman) as the effects; as the Vivartavada is going to be upheld in the other sutra (II.i.6.14) to be taken up later. Thus the position of the Vedanta as regards the material causehood of Brahman is the Vivartavaada. In my earlier posting too, I had highlighted this position alone. As my objective in the post addressed to Srinivas ji was limited to giving the Sruti/Sutra reference, I had not gone into the details mentioned above. As I have not studied the Dvaita philosophy, I am unable to comment upon it. With warm regards subbu Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new and used cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2006 Report Share Posted January 24, 2006 Dear Subramanyana-ji , Namaste. Thanks for your mail on this issue and quoting Taitt.U. > > Response: In this very anuvaka, II.vi. of the Tai.Up, there are the vakyams: > > Saccha Tyaccha abhavat. Niruktam cha aniruktam cha.Nilayanam cha anilayanam cha.vijnanam cha avijnanam cha. satyam cha anrtam cha satyam abhavat. yadidam kim cha. Tat Satyamityachakshate.. No, these terms (such as sacch, tyat, anirukta etc) does not indicate Brahman becoming `all these'. All of above words in their primary sense indicative of Brahman only. In other words, Brahman is vAchya with all these terms. Because of this vAchyatva (of B) and such Brahman being controller in the created things by various Controller Forms. Because of B's various Controller Forms, which gives various aspects to the created world, this creation also gets those names in their secondary sense. Brahman is said to be `tyat', because He is vyApta and niyAmaka. Brahman is said to be `anirukta', because no single word can completely describe Him. Brahman is said to be `nilayana', because He is all-supportive (sarvAdhAra). Brahman is said to be `vijnAna', because He has Knowledge of everything in full detail. Brahman is said to be `satya', because He is nirduSTa guNa-swarUpa. Now, how do created things gets those terms in secondary sense? It is as follows ; Terms such as `sat', `nirukta', `anruta', `avijnAna' and `anilayana' are indicative of all this creation (other than Sree, hiraNyagarbha and mukys-prANa tatva-s); - Because there is no limitation in describing a worldly thing by a word, this world is called nirukta i.e not anirukta - Because this created world of sentients can not possibly know everything, it is called `avijnAna' - Because this created world is not supportive of all, it is called by `anilayana' All these limitations to the created world is due to various Controller Forms of B in them, thus B' is primarily vAchya by those terms. Where as `satya' is indicative of Sree tatva and mukhya-prANa because of Brahman in them as nirduSTa guNarUpa. So also, terms such as `tyat', `anirykta', `vijnAna' and `nilayana' are used for chatur-mukha Brahma (hirNyagarbha) because of Brahman's anteryAmitva in hirNyagarbha. Also, since He plays active role in causing avasAda (khEda), suvAchyatava, durbhalyatva, ajnAna and duSTa-guNarUpatva to this created world (other than Sree, hiraNyagarbha and mukys-prANa tatva), Brahman is said to be vAchya by those terms as well. Thus, in the context of creation what Upanishad is saying is that He created the world , He took many Controller Forms to manage the creation. Due to His Role in manifesting various aspects in created tatva-s through His Controller Forms, He is vAchya by those terms. This topic is much more eleborated in M.bhAshya and I do not think I covered it completely. I suggest you please study if you find a chance. > > The Acharya has explained that everything in the entire creation is covered by the above 'becoming of all' by Brahman. As I said earlier, shruti's 'bahu syAM prajAyeya' simply means He desired to become **many**. The point of contention is why `bahu' is translated as `all' instead of `many'? Also, Upanishad's assertion of His 'entering' (…prAvishAt) would be pointless if He were to be the material cause of that which He is 'entering', even if this 'entering' only be a manifestation (as some other holds). Brahman taking multiple Forms (other than created things) is explained in next verse as "asadvA idamagra AsIt.h, tato vai sadajAyata, tadAtmAnaM svayamakuruta, tasmaattatsukR^itamuchyata iti . . . ' >The Brahmasutras I.iv.6.23 – 27 teach the material causehood of Brahman. In the 26th sutra the Acharya points out the 'saccha >tyaccha abhavat' to show the material causehood of Brahman. For the very Tai.vakyam: Yato vaa imaani bhutaani jaayante' the >Acharya shows the Panini Sutra 1.4.30 'JanikartuH prakrtiH' and establishes that the upadanakaaranam is Brahman. These sutras >may have been explained in a different way by other schools. I am not entering that debate. I just wanted to show that the above Tai. >vakyams are there for His 'becoming all'. > Regarding sUtra-s 23-27 of 4th pAda of samanvaya adhikaraNa, there is lot to discuss between us. However, here are some pointers; For inter-school comparison on B.sUtra, you may like to read "The Brahma Sutras and Their Principal Commentaries" by B.N.K. Sharma. Even though the author is a committed Dvaitin and you'd expect the appropriate bias, as much as I know it is the only work in English that offers a thorough comparison of the three primary commentaries on the Sutras. Coming to the issue of Brahman's being the material cause (as is clay for a pot) rather than just the effective cause (as is the potter for a pot), we must note that the Sutras have been incorrectly interpreted by some to offer such a purport. The ones you're quoting are in the *samanvaya* ("uniform interpretation") chapter of the Brahma Sutras. As you know, chapters in sUtra are organized as samanvaya("uniform interpretation"), avirodha ("treatment of objections"), sAdhanA, and phala adhyaya-s The first chapter is acknowledged by all schools to refer to the uniform interpretation of Vedantic epithets as referring solely to Brahman, i.e., as establishing that all the scriptures have only Brahman for their purport, rather than other things (also). As both Sri.Shankara and Sri.Ramaanuja did in those sUtras (23-27), rebuttal of the sAN^khya's prakR^iti has no place in this chapter, and such refutation should only figure in the second (as indeed it does). In addition, the establishing of Brahman as the material cause is sought to be done in rebutting the "nirIshvara" (atheistic) sAN^khya interpretation of the Vedas, however, in fact the nirIshvara sAN^khyas do not care to interpret the Vedas at all, which they do not regard as scripture. For our discussion, let's go each sUtras one by one in a simple manner. I.4.23 OM || prakRti$ca pratijn~aa dRSTaantaanuparodhaat || OM As per Sri.Shankara, Brahman is also prakRti(material cause) of the world, because this (thesis) do not contradict affirmations and examples contained in shruti. But, the point of other school's contention is, this Sutra has to do solely with establishing that the word `prakR^iti' is an epithet of Brahman, i.e doing samanvaya of word `prkR^iti' in Brahman. The topic of B's causality – whether upAdana or nimitta, is outside the scope of this pAda . As such, this adhikarana is not directly concerned with denial of tatva-s (such as prakriti etc) other than Brahman. However, if conclusion of non-existence of prakritia as other than B is to be sought, the sUtra-s would have denyed prakR^iti and would have established the non-existence of the same in earlier adhikaraNa- s. The non-existence of prakriti as a tatva would not, therefore , be valid inference from this adhikaraNa. It is just as how non-existence of AkAsha as a tatva (other than B) has not followed from AkAsha- adhikaraNa earlier. I.4.24 OM || abhidhyOpa dEshAchha || OM The wording of the sUtra is not consistent with the requirement of vivarta-vAda. The viShaya-vAkya reffered by Sri.Shankara is that of Taitt.U ii.6. It is His Wish that has been referred to as `abhidhyA' in the sUtra and not the wish to become the substratum of illusory appearances. I.4.26 OM || aatmakRteH pariNaamaat || OM In S.bhAshya, it is been stated as, by the development of what He has made from Himself (aatmakRtiH) I fail to see why `AtmakR^itiH' must mean "from Himself" rather than "by Himself." I.4.27 OM || yoniSca hi gIyate ||OM It is said in your school that Brahman is sung about as the source of the created world. This does not establish that Brahman is the material cause. The potter can be the source of pots without being their material cause. Term `yOni' does not mean material causality. If otherwise, the very third sUtra OM|| shAstra yOnitvAt || OM would render shAstra is the material cause of Brahmn! In point of fact, the theses of the universe being a modification of Brahman's form, and of its being of the nature of illusion such as dream-objects, are both rejected in the Mandukya Upanishad: vibhUtiM prasavaM tvanye manyante sR^ishhTichintakAH | svapnamAyA sarUpeti sR^ishhTiranyairvikalpitA | ichchhAmAtraM prabhoH sR^ishhTiriti sR^ishhTau vinishchitAH || Some people, in consideration of sR^ishhTi, think it as being a modification (prasavaM) of Brahman's own form (vibhUti). Others imagine it as being akin (sarUpa) to the illusion of a dream (svapnamAyA). However, it is established (vinishchitAH) that Creation is solely by the Lord's own Will (ichchhAmAtraM prabhoH). The point to be understood in this context is that modifications in the body (such as due to sickness, injury, or aging) *happen without, and often against, one's wish*. Likewise, the appearance of dream objects is without, and sometimes against, one's wish. Therefore, if one proposes that Creation is so, then the doubt would naturally arise whether Brahman is also similarly impotent in controlling such change or manifestations. The Shruti therefore firmly rebuts such talk and says that Creation is solely by His will. Therefore, it is not a modification of His form, and it is not a hallucinatory appearance either. It is been my pleasure to discuss B.sUtra with you, Sri.Subramanyana- ji , With warm regards, Srinivas Kotekal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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