Verification of upanishadic statements

[Guest guest]

--- mahadevadvaita <mahadevadvaita wrote:

 

 

Shree mahadevadviata

With the name like that, there should not be a problem.

Let me address the questions you raised to the best I can.

 

First, there is no use to ask anyone if he has experienced the

mahaavaakyaas. Suppose I say yes, are you going to believe me or

dispose it off saying that I am some kind of crackpot? What I am

arriving at is, as you recognize, it is intensely subjective since it is

about the subject I and not any object. Asking someone whether he has

realized or telling someone that he has realized both are not

encouraged, since that kind of approach does not help anyone.

 

Let us address the problems that you are facing. That I think is more

helpful than knowing someone else has realized or not. This is my

humble opinion.

> OM TAT SAT

> Dear list members, I think we all have intellectual understanding of

> Advaita - it is fairly simple except maybe the part about the

> reality/mithya/unreal nature of world. Personally, I am just

> spinning my wheels without making "any progress" in my sadhana or

> maybe I am even going in reverse or maybe I am learning something

> each time I falter.

 

This is not uncommon and please rest assured that what you are facing

very normal. It is like trying to do vigorous exercise for a day and

see how much the muscles have grown. We are taken many lives with the

notion that we are jiivas and these notions are very deep-rooted. It

takes some time to purify the mind from the burden of many lives.

Continue with saadhana and with full faith and conviction about the

reality of advaita. That conviction is very important for your saadhana

- once one has a clear vision of the nature of the goal, the commitment

for saadhana becomes deep rooted, whatever the obstacles one encounter

they are overcome with confidence. The problem everyone has is the lack

of chitta suddhi. The pressure of vaasanaas tries to derail the saadhak,

but with determination and conviction, one can overcome these slowly but

steadily.

>I want to know, how far folks have experienced

> the upanishadic statements, especially about consciousness. This is

> a subjective experience and it is difficult to describe. Maybe the

> experiencer, experiencing and experience are all merged into one.

 

I find two problems here - one the very longing for experience becomes

an obstacle for growth. Please recognize that it is not the experience

that we are seeking but knowledge. Everyone experiences both dvaita and

advaita, first one in the waking and dream states and the second one in

the deep sleep state. There is no merging or non-merging. Does the

pot-space merges with the total space. Space is one only and never

divided. However, pot space appears to be different from total space

when we are paying attention only to the enclosures or upaadhiis. It is

only shifting ones attention based on the scriptural knowledge. The

pressure of vaasanaas keeps us pulling back. The saadhana therefore

involves - abhyaasa and vairaagya as Krishna repeatedly tells us.

Renouncing what we are not and ascertaining in the knowledge of what we

are by constant practice.

 

 

I

> am not trying to throw a challenge for Vedanta or trying to judge

> who is a sthithpragya or not. I am just trying to check with

> members, if their conviction, experience, contemplation, reflection

> etc matches with the absolute reality of Advaita.

 

I suggest your turn your challenge inwards with full conviction that

advaita is correct and that I am going to establish in that by

renouncing what I am not. I do not question your attempts but the

problem you or any one of us have is only the chitta suddhi. Please

continue your saadhana with full faith and taking the help from the Lord

and teacher to guide you.

 

 

All the volumes

> that are available on Advaita and the numerous upanishads,

> ultimately amount to "Consciousness is Brahman" in my humble

> opinion.

 

It is not 'consciousness is Brahman' and I am looking for consciousness.

It is the conviction that I am what I am seeking for and I am not an

object that I perceive or conceptualize, that includes even the concept

that I am consciousness or consciousness is Brahman. It is not

cenceptual undersanding. It should be internalized with firm conviction

that I am Brahman or totality that pervades all the concepts.

 

 

I want to hear (maybe anonymously or email directed only to

> me), if folks have experienced this great mahavakya.

> On a related note, when I can see my thoughts and sometimes

> even "see" a budding thought, who is seeing this ? Is it my buddhi

> or is it consciousness ?

 

Please understand that I am, the conscious entity, through buddhi is

seeing the thoughts rising in my buddhi, sustained in by my buddhi and

goes back into my buddhi. Identifying myself as I am the buddhi, then I

say the thoughts are rising in me, sustained by me and goes back into

me. It is a question of shifting your attention from buddhi to the

consciousness that enlivens buddhi.

 

In the final analysis - I am beyond any concepts about myself too. I am

period - even 'I am' disappears into I am.

 

Bottom line - continue to your study of scriptuers - shravaNam, mananam

and nidhidhyaasana, while involved yourself in Karma yoga in purifying

the mind. Have a full faith or conviction in the advaita. To establish

that faith and conviction only that study of the scriptures and

reflecting on the truth and contemplation are essential. There are no

other short cuts.

 

 

Hope this helps. All the best in your saadhana.

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

 

>

> thanks,

> OM TAT SAT

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

mahadevadvaita wrote:

> OM TAT SAT

> Dear list members, I think we all have intellectual understanding of

> Advaita - it is fairly simple except maybe the part about the

> reality/mithya/unreal nature of world. Personally, I am just

> spinning my wheels without making "any progress" in my sadhana or

> maybe I am even going in reverse or maybe I am learning something

> each time I falter. I want to know, how far folks have experienced

> the upanishadic statements, especially about consciousness. This is

> a subjective experience and it is difficult to describe.

 

It is only Self-Recognition. It is not difficult to describe. Upanishads

have done it. Sages talk about it all the time. People here speak of it.

It is not difficult to describe. It is difficult to grasp and accept. "I

myself am Brahman". What could be a simpler description?

 

The following story is taken from Swami Sivananda's site.

http://www.dlshq.org/saints/yajnavalkya.htm.

 

"Once King Janaka of Videha wanted to know from which real Brahmanishtha

to receive Brahma Vidya. In order to find out who was the real

Brahma-nishtha, Janaka performed a huge Bahu-dakshina sacrifice to which

all the Rishis from far and wide were invited. And he offered one

thousand cows with their calves, all their horns being decked with

enormous gold. Then he proclaimed to the assembled ones, "Whosoever is

the best Brahmana amongst you may drive these cows home". None dared to

get up and take away the cows as they were afraid of censure by the

others. But Yajnavalkya stood up and asked his disciple Samasravas to

drive the cows home."

 

"The other Brahmanas got angry at this and said to one another, "How can

he declare himself to be the best among us?". Thereupon several Rishis

challenged Yajnavalkya with many questions on transcendental matters to

all of which Yajnavalkya gave prompt reply. There was a great debate in

which Yajnavalkya won over all the others."

 

I believe if you look sincerely, you will find your Yajnavalkya. Be

prepared to part with your cows.

 

Best wishes.

 

 

 

 

community blog is at

 

http://.net/blog/

 

"Love itself is the actual form of God."

 

Sri Ramana

 

In "Letters from Sri Ramanasramam" by Suri Nagamma

[Guest guest]

OM TAT SAT

Venerable Sada-ji, Thanks for responding. Your messages are simple,

useful and full of wisdom and humility. I don't disagree with what

you stated but please see some inline responses (parts of email

deleted for brevity).

 

regards,

OM TAT SAT

> First, there is no use to ask anyone if he has experienced the

> mahaavaakyaas. Suppose I say yes, are you going to believe me or

> dispose it off saying that I am some kind of crackpot? What I am

> arriving at is, as you recognize, it is intensely subjective since

it is

> about the subject I and not any object. Asking someone whether he

has

> realized or telling someone that he has realized both are not

> encouraged, since that kind of approach does not help anyone.

 

I understand that the very statement "I have realized" is

contradictory since there is no sense of I (all things are in me and

I am in all things ...). However, during the so called sadhana

phase, one can say based on his experience, reflection, intuition if

the upanishadic statements make sense and why.

 

> I find two problems here - one the very longing for experience

becomes

> an obstacle for growth.

 

I don't have any longing for experience but currently Atman to me

means a mysterious, invisible entity which stills my mind and gives

a sense of peace. That sense of peace is unmistakable but perhaps

still part of neti-neti.

 

 

> The saadhana therefore

> involves - abhyaasa and vairaagya as Krishna repeatedly tells us.

> Renouncing what we are not and ascertaining in the knowledge of

what we

> are by constant practice.

 

This is the practice that I cannot seem to even start. I am still

stuck at the mantra japa phase which does quieten the mind but I am

not sure how to focus on atman and meditate. (I will try to hear the

lectures on yogamalika.com by Swami Parmarthanandaji)

 

>

>

> I suggest your turn your challenge inwards with full conviction

that

> advaita is correct and that I am going to establish in that by

> renouncing what I am not. I do not question your attempts but the

> problem you or any one of us have is only the chitta suddhi. Please

> continue your saadhana with full faith and taking the help from

the Lord

> and teacher to guide you.

 

Yes but due to the nature of this wild beast called mind - it

remains agitated, always moving in thousand directions and

questioning everything stated in the scriptures. Whatever is stated

in the upanishads has been verified by many over the years so

hearing from a contemporary gives more strength to shraddha.

[Guest guest]

--- mahadevadvaita <mahadevadvaita wrote:

 

> I understand that the very statement "I have realized" is

> contradictory since there is no sense of I (all things are in me and

> I am in all things ...). However, during the so called sadhana

> phase, one can say based on his experience, reflection, intuition if

> the upanishadic statements make sense and why.

 

Yes. You are right. Since it is subjective understanding, any

statement anybody makes itself is subjective. Listener should have

faith in the speaker's statement. The best proof that is independent of

any specific individuals are the statements of Bhagavaan Ramana Maharshi

or Nisargadatta Maharaj whose works are full of wisdom. Even studying

them should take you meditation. That is why I take Upadeshasaara of

Bhagavaan Ramana Maharshi during my spiritual camps.

 

During the saadhana phase, as one dwells and meditates on the truth

indicated in the scriptures, one can see the beauty and the glory of the

teaching. I would not want to put it in the format of 'makes sense' - I

would put in the format of intense glow of the mind beyond any senses -

Any attempt to describe with words is useless and meaningless - there is

no 'why' for it - it just IS. There are no question of upanishad's

statement there - no question of trying to compare the notes there -

just enjoy the beauty and brilliance of the mind there. No need to ask

anything or say anything, compare anything, certify anything - just

enjoy the beauty - No, I should not even say enjoy as if it is something

to enjoy- that degrades the beauty of it. So my friend have full faith

in the scriptures and go on with saadhana - no need to look back - The

ever shining principle descends on you when you are ready. Just leave it

Him and keep yourself ready for it. Have full faith in the scriptures

and indulge in realizing that truth expounded in the scriptures.

 

Just a simple advice for those who are convinced of the truth by

mananam- the study of the scriptures should itself become meditation.

No need to spend time studying convoluted logic, dialectic, or

philosophical arguments when you are studying the scriptures -those may

be needed to convince oneself about the truth of the arguments.

Brahmasuutras are not needed for everybody - they help only to convince

oneself what is the self-consistent truth of vedanta. If you are

already convinced the logic of spirituality, no need of Brahmasuutras

either. All you need to do is study the scriptures as expounded by your

teacher. However, once you are convinced just try to realize then and

there as you are studying, try to see that truth - right there - not to

be postponed for later time or for meditation time. To be able to do

that, purity of the mind is helpful otherwise mind gets easily hijacked

to dissipating fields. Still nothing to worry about - The moment you

recognize that mind has drifted, bring it back to the study and back to

medication on that truth indicated in the study. Pretty soon the mind

will follow you!

> > I find two problems here - one the very longing for experience

> becomes

> > an obstacle for growth.

>

> I don't have any longing for experience but currently Atman to me

> means a mysterious, invisible entity which stills my mind and gives

> a sense of peace. That sense of peace is unmistakable but perhaps

> still part of neti-neti.

 

Yes - enjoy that peace - no need to compare the notes. No need to name

it. Peace is its expression - not the word, but the feeling of

fullness. Just let the mind indulge in that. That peace that is beyond

understanding. Just be there as long as you can.

 

> This is the practice that I cannot seem to even start. I am still

> stuck at the mantra japa phase which does quieten the mind but I am

> not sure how to focus on atman and meditate. (I will try to hear the

> lectures on yogamalika.com by Swami Parmarthanandaji)

 

Do not worry about to meditate on atman or Brahman - it is not something

to meditate - See yourself in the quiet mind - you are that -observer

of silence is the silence observed - there is no more roles to play in

that quiet state of mind - no need to meditate on something else - you

are there in that peace, period.

> Yes but due to the nature of this wild beast called mind - it

> remains agitated, always moving in thousand directions and

> questioning everything stated in the scriptures. Whatever is stated

> in the upanishads has been verified by many over the years so

> hearing from a contemporary gives more strength to shraddha.

 

Forget about the mind's problems. Just concentrate on the study of the

scriptures and try to see the truth of the scriptural statements then

and there itself. That is your mind. If you try to confront it, you are

only giving strength to it to fight back. Just ignore for the time

being and concentrate on your study - the mind will follow you. Vedantic

meditation does not need one to sit down at some particular pose and to

force your mind to concentrate - that is needed in the beginning to

train the mind. However, the very study of the scriptures should be

meditation. That happens only when you are trying to see the truth then

and there rather than compare the notes - what X has said and how does

it differ from that of Y etc. Those are the beginning stages to get

convinced of the statements of the scriptures. Once you are convinced

of that, go to the next- For example when you study Kenopanishad -

That which mind cannot think, but because of which the mind has the

capacity to think - Know that is brahman not 'this' that you worship,

etc. Study the meaning, steady what is that the scripture is trying to

indicate then try to see that then and there itself. Mind will

automatically drop all her problems and be with you. Each chapter of

Nisargadatta Maharaj "I am That" is meditation text - to be meditated

upon while you are studying. Do not worry whether you will complete the

text or not - purpose is to see what he says as the truth - not later

but then and there. That is how the scriptures have to be studied.

 

Since you asked I had respond to the best I can. Hope this helps in your

sadhana.

 

My best wishes.

 

 

Hari OM!

Sadananda

[Guest guest]

kuntimaddi sadananda <kuntimaddisada wrote: ---

mahadevadvaita <mahadevadvaita wrote:

 

>

 

Yes. You are right. Since it is subjective understanding, any

statement anybody makes itself is subjective. Listener should have

faith in the speaker's statement. The best proof that is independent of

any specific individuals are the statements of Bhagavaan Ramana Maharshi

or Nisargadatta Maharaj whose works are full of wisdom. Even studying

them should take you meditation. That is why I take Upadeshasaara of

Bhagavaan Ramana Maharshi during my spiritual camps.

 

Yes sir,

You are right that Nisargdatta's work, 'I am That,' is replete

with highest wisdom of Advaita. I had the good fortune of having been in his

talks' session for fifteen days. I cannot forget the extraordinary insight of

Maharaj even this day, even though I don't read much of it. I am not able to

even so much as intellectually grasp the wisdom of Maharaj in the following

conversation. The questioner is asking Maharaj as to what happens to the

compassion of the jnani- after his disembodiment- which animated his body while

he was alive, whether the compassion was still related to the bound souls; in

what way the jnani helps the rest of the mankind. Maharaj replied that the

whole manifest existence is an expression of the compassion of the jnani. When

I made a men tion of the statement of J.Krishnamurthy that the man beyond the

stream of psychological time is related to the rest of the stream only through

compassion, which does not involve any individual

volition, Maharaj replied that Krishnamurthy spoke a great truth in a

particular language, while in the perception of the jnani all the three things-

vyakti, vyakta and the avyakta ( the individual, the Universe and That which is

not aware of itself )- all these things do not exist. Maharaj spoke like

Ashtavakra and Vasishta. Maharaj used to say that those who believed in the

reality of their body-mind complex, and wanted to ask some question at that

level had better leave his place and go to those who could distribute the

worldly goods. In spite of his seemingly rough exterior and certain feisty

manner, Maharaj was intensely human. U.G.Krishnamurthy and Poonjaji had visited

the attic of Maharaj where the talks-dialogs session used to be in an old

rambling building, even the neighbours of that place not having known the

stature of Maharaj as a spiritual giant. Maurice Frydman, a true devotee, has

taken the pains to bring out, "I Am That," for which we cannot be too

grateful to him.

With warm regards,

Sankarraman

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Mahadevadviata

 

Its ok to doubt, in fact, I would say its welcomed as it is the ground for

growth. I also can tell you one thing, its very different to think one

"understands" via logic, and to be "there".

 

And yes, there is a "there".

 

 

Mo

_____

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;

the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt

the world to himself. Therefore, all progress

depends on the unreasonable man.

 

-George Bernard Shaw