RE:Brahman & Name - Form

[Guest guest]

Namaste Chittaranjanji and Rajesh Ramachandranji

 

I have referenced messages from Bhagavad Geeta where I thought would reflect

the sentiment and logic expressed so eloquently by both of you. Thanks for

allowing me this opportunity.

I have annotated my additions under my initials, KR.

 

PranAmas,

K. Ramakrishna.

 

Message: 5

Thu, 23 Feb 2006 09:50:37 -0000

"Chittaranjan Naik" <chittaranjan_naik

Re: Brahman & Name - Form

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RR:

> If we take this argument to be true then nothing

> is unknown to Brahman in phenomenal world even if

> the event is yet to occur in time.

 

CN:

 

True. Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that all these Kaurava warriors have

been killed already, and that he, Arjuna, shall be the mere

instrument of the Lord's Will.

 

KR:

vEdAham samatItAni..... (7-26)

O Arjuna! I know the past, present and the future of all beings (nAma rUpa),

but me no one knows. This verse declares the omniscience of the Lord; all

beings are in the womb of time, and time as the cosmic illusion, is in the

Lord. This statement from Krishna is of course, is before the event of your

citation. I thought this statement fits the context well.

 

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"Time is the canvas against which manifestative possibilities

actualise. The paradox of the world is that what changes not is seen

to change. The paradox is change itself in its passing of eternal

forms before our eyes. " (TPM On-line, 7 March 2000)

 

"Time is the bewitching power of Maya that drapes itself over

eternally unchanging forms. She is Mahakali, the Great Night behind

creation." (Discussions on 'Real and Unreal', July 2004)

 

In the Bhagavad Gita, Lord Krishna says: "I am Time, see in me all

that is to be seen." (I don't remember the exact verse no.)

 

KR:

...... aham Eva akshyah kAlO dhAtA aham viswatOmuKah ( 10-33)

I am the eternal time; I am the dispenser of fruits of actions (a proxy for

nAma rUpa), having faces in all directions (Omniscient - visatOmuKah).

Also, when Arjuna was utterly terrified on seeing the Lord's form of

viswarUpa, he asks Krishna, "I wish to know Thee, the Original Being

(Adyam).

Sri Krishna replies "kAlOsmi lOka kssaya krit pravriddhah....(11-33)

I am Time, world destroying and mighty, now engaged in destroying the

worlds; even without you, these warriors in the hostile armies shall not

live

 

RR:

> Does is it then imply that our choice of our action

> then determine what parts of the eternal name - form

> is uncovered?

 

CN:

 

Yes.

 

 

RR:

> If this is so then Brahman does not completely

> determine the revelation of nama -rupa in phenomenal

> world.

 

CN:

 

Every determination that follows from our actions are determined by

Brahman because the self of the acting jiva is not other than

Brahman. Brahman determines by His mere presence. The manner of His

determination is called Dharma Chakra.

 

KR:

Evam pravartitam chakram nAnuvartiyatIha yaha..... (Geeta 3-16)

The man who does not follow the dharmachakra, thus set revolving (explained

in verses 3-14, 15), is a sinner, rejoicing in sense-pleasures and he lives

in vain.

 

 

RR:

> The eternal nama-rupa has infinite permutations

> or variations and all of them abide as 'One' in

> Brahman. The Brahman has no particular interest in any

> one way of revelation of projected name-form but

> witnesses all emerging nama - rupa in phenomenal world

> without any pre-determination and thereby is un-attached

> with any particular outcome in phenomenon world.

 

CN:

 

It is correct to say that Brahman has no particular interest in any

one way of revelation of projected name-form. There is a sutra for

this in the Brahma Sutras, and Shankara comments that the action of

the Lord is without motive.

 

KR:

Na cha mAm tAni karmAni nibadnanti Dananjaya

udAsIna-vadAsInam asaktam tEshu karmasu - (Geeta 9-9)

Arjuna! nor do those actions bind Me; I remain indifferent and unattached to

those actions.

The "those actions" is explained in verse 8

Prakritim svAm avashtaBhya visrijAmi punah punah .,.Animating Nature, which

is mine own, I emnate again and again all this multitude of beings.....

 

RR:

> Or is our choices that we make in world an illusion

> whereby we in reality are only undergoing the motions

> mistakenly thinking that we are performing it?

 

CN:

 

Perfect. See what Lord Krishna says:

 

"Actions are wrought in all cases by the gunas of Prakriti. He whose

mind is deluded by ahamkara thinks 'I am the doer.'" (Bh.Gita.III.27)

 

"O Arjuna, as a blazing fire reduces pieces of wood to ashes,

similarly the fire of Knowledge reduces all actions to ashes."

(Bh.Gita.IV.37)

[Guest guest]

ref post 30344

 

Namashkar Krishnamurthy Ramakrishna-ji!

 

Beautiful enhancements to chitta's post! We are definitely in 'Gita'

wonderland with Sri Ramji describing the Divine glories of Sri

Krishna Paramatma and sri sadajii giving us his Spring Bouquet

of 'Gita Navaneetham '

 

May i also be allowed to present some additional verses which seem to

echo Chitta refrrerences to verses from the Bhagvat gita ?

 

CN

 

( Lord Krishna tells Arjuna that all these Kaurava warriors have

been killed already, and that he, Arjuna, shall be the mere

instrument of the Lord's Will. )

 

KR:

( vEdAham samatItAni..... (7-26)

O Arjuna! I know the past, present and the future of all beings

(nAma rUpa), but me no one knows. This verse declares the omniscience

of the Lord; all beings are in the womb of time, and time as the

cosmic illusion, is in the Lord. This statement from Krishna is of

course, is before the event of your > citation. I thought this

statement fits the context well. )

 

HERE IS THE ADDITION i like to make

 

dronam ca bhismam ca jayadratham ca

karnam tathanyan api yodha-viran

maya hatams tvam jahi ma vyathistha

yudhyasva jetasi rane sapatnan (chapter 11 , verse 34)

 

 

The Blessed Lord said: All the great warriors--Drona, Bhisma,

Jayadratha, Karna--are already destroyed. Simply fight, and you will

vanquish your enemies.

 

Here , sri Krishna tells Arjuna He is the suypreme planner and doer .

Arjuna has no free will ! All these enemies were even destroyed by

Sri Krishna even before they entered the kurukshetra battlefield!

take Karna , for instance. Recall that Incident where Lord Indra goes

to Daanavir Karna for his gold earrrings as a poor brahmin! These

gold earrngs were given by Surya bhagvan for karna's protection.((

kavacha). But Karna gave them away without blinking his eyes ! Also ,

remember the famous 'parasurama ' incident where Karna protects his

Guru in his sadhana by not moving even though Karna was stung by a

deadly poisonous bee ! Parasurama knew in an instant that Karna was

no ordinary brahmin but a gallant kshatriya ! Parasurama was so upset

by this deception that Parasurama cursed karna that he would 'forget'

all the vidya at the right time! This is what haapened in the

kurukshetra rana bhoomi! Then Kuntidevi approached Karna and asked

him to spare the life of her other son, Arjuna ! WHO PLANNED ALL

THIS - PRE- MEDITATED 'KILLING' OF KARNA ? none other than , Lord

Krishna THROUGH HIS VARIOUS ACTS OF 'CHATURYAM' !

 

 

CN:

 

( It is correct to say that Brahman has no particular interest in any

one way of revelation of projected name-form. There is a sutra for

this in the Brahma Sutras, and Shankara comments that the action of

the Lord is without motive.)

 

KR:

( Na cha mAm tAni karmAni nibadnanti Dananjaya

udAsIna-vadAsInam asaktam tEshu karmasu - (Geeta 9-9)

Arjuna! nor do those actions bind Me; I remain indifferent and

unattached to> those actions.)

 

WHY DOES SRI KRISHNA PERFORM ALL HIS ACTIONS WITHOUT ANY MOTIVE ?

 

this is explained in the following verse

 

TEXT 25 , CHAPTER 3 ON KARMA YOGA

 

saktah karmany avidvamso

yatha kurvanti bharata

kuryad vidvams tathasaktas

cikirsur loka-sangraham

 

 

As the ignorant perform their duties with attachment to results,

similarly the learned may also act, but without attachment, for the

sake of leading people on the right path.

 

WOW! THIS IS THE HALLMARK OF A TRUE KARMA YOGI! not only he is not

attached to the resuklts of his actions , he is also a follower of

Dhrama and wants to lead people on the path of 'righteousness ' by

performing righteous actions! Yes, Loka sangraham! Why did a great

jnana yogi like Adi shankara travel from Kashmir to Kanchi spreading

the message of the vedas and the upanishads ? why ? For this great

brahma jnani had no ulteror motive but only the desire to lead

people on the path of Sanatana dharma! it is for this reason also,

Adi Shankara established the Shanmathas !

 

 

Thank you , sirs, for this wonderful opportunity to share these gems

from the Srimad Bhagvat Gita !

 

Harihi Aum!