varna

[Guest guest]

Namaste Krishnamurthiji,

As much as people would like

to present the varna system as perfectly logical and

benign if properly viewed there are no doubt elements

within it which combined with ideas of purity and

pollution tend to create rigidity and lack of

movement. I do not believe that you can separate

the two. If theoretically speaking the transfer of

your birth varna is legitimate in order to follow the impulse

of your gunas why is intercaste marriage frowned on and

in fact despised in the Gita and elsewhere. Purity,

pollution and social standing seem to me to be

inseperable from the varna system as incarnated and

it obviously leads to societal stagnation and the

waste of talent. Of course social standing can cancel

out pollution as the Brahmin who would be appaled if

his child took up the honourable profession of mortician

is delighted at his son/daughter the doctor who

performs autopsies routinely.

 

With the rise of general, free and accessible education

the rigidities of the class system has been broken

down in Europe. As everywhere it is the key to avoid

the creation of a permanent underclass.

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Michael Ji:

 

Everyone needs to respect each others varna. Higher or lower is only in

spiritual evolution and nothing more. Marriage within a Varna is a means to

establish compatibility norms and that does not preclude exceptions as evident

in ancient hindu literature. In Kali Yuga adharma prevails more and it is

difficult to comprehend the great institution of Varna that prevailed in

ancient Bharath. The ancient rishi's knew far more than us that they structured

everything for spiritual evolution. We in the garb of knowledge owing to

western eduction take pride in questioning ancient practices which were meant

for the benefit of humanity as a whole.

 

Finally, Are you sure that western class system has broken down completely?

Are there no more racial in-equalities in west? Are women truly empowered in

west? Are jealousies and animosities towards people down because of free

western thought? Let us ponder these questions in the depths of our heart and

reflect the truth before passing judgments.Varna system is a boon that we have

failed to understand and practice.

 

Sincerely,

RR

 

 

ombhurbhuva <ombhurbhuva wrote: Namaste Krishnamurthiji,

As much as people would like

to present the varna system as perfectly logical and

benign if properly viewed there are no doubt elements

within it which combined with ideas of purity and

pollution tend to create rigidity and lack of

movement. I do not believe that you can separate

the two. If theoretically speaking the transfer of

your birth varna is legitimate in order to follow the impulse

of your gunas why is intercaste marriage frowned on and

in fact despised in the Gita and elsewhere. Purity,

pollution and social standing seem to me to be

inseperable from the varna system as incarnated and

it obviously leads to societal stagnation and the

waste of talent. Of course social standing can cancel

out pollution as the Brahmin who would be appaled if

his child took up the honourable profession of mortician

is delighted at his son/daughter the doctor who

performs autopsies routinely.

 

With the rise of general, free and accessible education

the rigidities of the class system has been broken

down in Europe. As everywhere it is the key to avoid

the creation of a permanent underclass.

 

Best Wishes,

Michael.

 

 

 

 

 

Discussion of Shankara's Advaita Vedanta Philosophy of nonseparablity of Atman

and Brahman.

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[Guest guest]

Dear members,

 

I may not be competent to comment on the matter. But I

thought of just letting people know that although I

hold no clinging to varna, I tend to think in a manner

similar to Sir Michael although slightly different.

 

Yet I shall present some ideas on this matter. Kindly

correct me if I am wrong.

 

Let me dwell first on the statement of the Bh. Gita,

that talks of the varnas being classified upon 'guna'

and 'karma'.

 

The three gunas pertain to the modes of Vedic

orientation that a person has - sattva for the subtle

fruits of action, rajas, for the gross fruits of

action and tamas for the sensuous fruits of action.

 

These gunas have a meaning only in the context of

karma yoga. In the context of jnana yoga (meant

exclusively for the ones with Sankhya buddhi) gunas

have no meaning, for it is only through the

renunciation of all, including gunas that knowledge is

found. (traigunya vishayaa vedaa, nistraigunyo

bhavaarjuna...)

 

Therefore when Sri Krishna states (lokesmin dvividhaa

nishthaa puraa proktaa mayaanagha....) he clearly

classifies the Sankhyas as the ones with greater

conviction of the path of discernment of reality and

the ones with conviction on social life and yoga of

action as the Yogis. The varna system is relevant only

to the ones with conviction on the yoga of action and

not to the ones of Sankhya conviction.

 

The sections of the Gita where Sri Krishna says that

"...I would then be the cause of intermingling, and

much confusion...." was in a different context. If

instead of fighting a battle, demonstrating the karma

of a kshatriya skillfully performed, Sri Krishna and

Arjuna were to take up Sanyasa (this contingency

appears in the beginning of the third Chapter of the

Gita - "tat kim karmani ghore, maam niyojasi

keshava?") the world would take his example and follow

suit. That would result in a disaster. So Sri Krishna

tells Arjuna that the world would follow him in

whatever he does as he sets an example to the people.

In the same way, he tells Arjuna to set an example -

"...lokasangrahamevaapi sampashyan kartumarhasi"

 

My opinion is that one should not separate the context

from the statement. Yet, I will not argue with you if

you insist that statements regarding Sri Krishna's

concern over the castes is independent, you may know

better.

 

Is it wrong to say that castes are not based on birth?

It is very logical to say that karma decides birth and

castes are decided by karma. Hence castes are decided

by birth or jaati.

 

Yet there is a small problem. First the verse clearly

talks of both guna and karma. So birth alone cannot be

a factor, and birth being only an indirect

representative of karma. Also, guna being the topic of

the previous verse in the Gita (Shankara's bhashya of

the Gita) is the more important factor that decides

caste. Even if karma is to be taken as the important

fator, it is karma of the present birth that is being

talked of. This is because of the karma of the

previous birth, that decided the present birth is in

accordance with the caste and dharma of the previous

life. If the previous life's karma decided the present

life's caste, then the person should perhaps perform

duties according to his previous life. This will lead

to a complex issue that can never be solved.

 

This being the case however, caste has no binding

whatsoever upon enlightenment. As the lord explains in

the Gita and as Shankara explains, the varnas, gunas,

karmas etc. are important for those with conviction in

the yoga of action. Those with the Sankhya buddhi,

have no caste, no holding on the gunas, for they

intend to go beyond the gunas and search for reality.

 

Finally, the concept of caste, even if they be

important for the ones with conviction on the yoga of

action, belongs to the realm of ignorance and hence is

devoid of any meaning in the context of prajna or the

ones seeking to know the deathless, nibbana. He who

thus can see himself as a non-agent, and can see

action in inaction and inaction in action, has

understood the true import of karma yoga and has

perfected it. - "karmanyakarma yah pashyet, akarmani

ca karma yah...." Then who is it that performed the

actions of the past lives and who is performing the

ones in the present. The Gita ascribes all action to

Nature and talks of the one who thinks of himself as

agent in terms such as: "ahankaara vimoodhaatmaa,

kartaahamiti manyate".

 

Thus the one established in steadfastness of knowledge

has no caste and the one established in the yoga of

action, performs no action and hence transcends all

castes.

 

Yet there are the ones not yet enlightened, but

inclined towards either Sankhya buddhi or yoga buddhi.

The Sankhyas have no caste anyway, but the ones with

yoga-buddhi consider castes as important for the

fruition of activities which shall hopefully lead to

liberation as long as it is righteous.

 

It may be tempting to enthusiastically chime in the

importance of the castes. I am not denying it's

importance in the right context. In fact, even the

Buddha in the right context in the Kannakatthala Sutta

(MN - 90, Pali Canon) talks of the four castes. But

the teaching of the Buddha being a path of jnana

(prajna) is completely indifferent to the castes.

 

Therefore, I neither praise nor decry it, since it is

just a part of nature.

 

It must however be noted that while it might be very

interesting to argue that the caste is enjoined in the

Vedas, it should be understood that it is enjoined in

the context of the fruition of activities. It is

potentially dangerous thus to argue as such. The Gita:

 

"yaamimaam pushpitaam vaacam, pravadantyavipashcitah,

veda-vaada-rataah paartha, naanyadasteeti-vaadinah,

kaamaatmaanah svargaparaa janma-karma-phalapradaam,

kriya-vishesha-bahulaam bhogaishvarya gatim prati."

 

It is noted that these run-of-the-mill people driven

by the fruits of actions enjoined in the Vedas, talk

of the fruits of different actions that lead to birth

(and hence death) [also talk, in a flowery way of the

relation between action and birth as if nothing else

were there other than those actions (and the

corresponding births - or castes)]

 

[Please note, I have not decried any Hindu texts in

any of the above personally. The Gita does quote as

such. And I have nothing against the Veda, since it is

to me a body of texts on rituals, to which I neither

have craving nor aversion. I however have great

respect for the Upanishads and the Gita, which lead to

enlightenment]

 

It is therefore not a very skillful approach to the

issue of caste.

 

I would personally however let the issue be as it is

and not to bother about it and to work on the means of

enlightenment. Maybe I am wrong from your perspective.

I am willing to take constructive criticism, wherever

it applies on this issue.

 

-Bhikku yogi