The Varna System

March 7, 2006

Om Namah Shivaya

Om Mata Annapurna

VARNA IS BY BIRTH

-----------------

It is wrong to say that the Varna System is not based on birth. Vedic

Dharma is defined by the Vedas together with the Vedangas and the

Upangas and it says that varna is given by birth. There are six

Vedangas and four Upangas, and together with the four Vedas, they

make fourteen vidyas called the 'chaturdasa vidyas'. These fourteen

vidyas reveal what Vedic Dharma is. The Dharma Shastras are the

Smriti, and there are eighteen primary texts of Dharma Shastra given

to us by eighteen Vedic Rishis, namely, Manu, Parasara, Yajnavalkya,

Gautama, Harita, Yama, Vishnu, Sanka, Likhita, Brihaspati, Daksha,

Angiras, Prachetas, Samvarta, Asanas, Atri, Apastamba, and Satatapa.

And all these Smriti texts say that Varna is by birth. Let there be

no mistake about it. The Smriti follows the Shruti and it speaks no

lie. The Smriti follows the Shruti even as a chaste and faithful wife

follows her husband, says Kalidasa in Raghuvamsa.

The example of the son of Jabala is an exception and not the rule.

The effort required for a person belonging to the kshatriya varna or

vaishya varna to change into a brahmana is so great that it is almost

impossible to achieve it in a single lifetime. The means to change

one's varna is given in the Smriti texts (Puranas) and it requires

stupendous efforts to do it.

Varna is a feature of Vedic Dharma. It is applicable only to people

born into Vaidika Dharma and not to others.

Varna is by birth. A person born into Vaidika Dharma is also born

into a varna. Birth is not an accident. It depends on the karmas of

the past. The past life is the yajna, and the present life is part of

the fruit of the yajna of the past.

Every action of man is connected to every other part of the universe

by the Wheel of Dharma. Action is the offering in the yajna of life

and pleasure and pain are the fruits that come back to us from this

yajna through the Dharma Chakra. The Garbha Upanishad says:

"All who are living are the sacrificers. There is none living who

does not perform sacrifice. This body is (created) for yajna, arises

out of yajna and changes according to yajna. If this yajna is changed

(from the right course, or is abused), then it leads to an ocean of

misery."

The body is the vehicle both for the sacrifice and the vehicle

through which the fruits of the sacrifice come back to the jiva.

"In this, the body is the sacrificial place, the skull of the head is

the fire-pit, the hairs are the kusa grass, the mouth is the altar,

kama is the clarified butter, the period of life is the period of

sacrifice." (Garbha Upanishad).

And when a man departs from the world, and is about to be born again,

how does the yajna (actions) that he performed in his previous life

bring forth the new body? Adi Shankara says in Brahadaranyaka

Upanishad bhashya that the entire universe waits for him with the

fruits of his actions.

"How under the circumstances can he take up another body? The answer

is as follows: He has adopted the whole universe as the means to the

realisation of the results of his work; and he is going from one body

to another to fulfil this object. Therefore the whole universe,

impelled by his work, waits for him with the requisite means for the

realisation of the results of his work made ready. Witness the

Sruti: 'A man is born into the body that has been made for him.'

(Sv.VI.II.11.27)" (Br.Up.IV.iii.36)

When a person performs an action, he offers his action into the Wheel

of Dharma and then the whole universe waits for him with the fruit of

his action. The gods wait for him, the people wait for him, the

heavens wait for him, the clouds and the rains wait for him, the

earth waits for him, the rivers and rocks wait for him, everything in

the universe waits for him - they wait for him with the offering of

the fruit of his action.

A man is not born out of the union of man and woman. The union of man

and woman is an instrumental act - it is a yajna for the gift of

pleasure, and for the gift of child. It is both a fruit and an

awaiting. When a man dies, the gods in heaven wait for him, and after

they have showered on him the pleasures of heaven and the pains of

hell, and the time comes for him to be born again, the gods send him

down to earth. Then the cloud welcomes him, the rain welcomes him,

and when he comes down with the rain, the earth welcomes him, and

then the corn and the rice welcomes him, and then the man who is to

be his father welcomes him when he eats the rice or corn.

When a man and a woman unite in sexual union, the pleasure they

derive from the act is the fruit of their past actions, and the act

itself is a yajna that awaits a new jiva in the world. Their sexual

desire is the fire ignited in them by Prajapati; it is the fire of

maithuna in which the man pours his libation into the woman, and out

of that act is born a new child. The man that had received the jiva

from the rice and corn he had eaten, now pours it as a libation into

the woman. The woman receives the gift, and she nurtures the new life

that the world awaits.

"When that (the period in the region of the moon) passes away, they

(the jivas) enter into space, from space into air, from air into the

rain, from the rain into the earth. Reaching the earth, they become

food. They are offered again into the fire of man, and thence in the

fire of woman. Out of the fire of woman they are born with a view to

going to other worlds." (Br.Up.VI.ii.16)

And what are they born as when they assume a new body? The entire

universe has waited for them with the fruits of their action, with

the new mansion (body) that they are to occupy? In what manner is

this mansion built? Says Svetasvatara: 'A man is born into the body

that has been made for him.' (Sv.VI.II.11.27).

VARNA IS BASED ON BOTH GUNA AND DEBT

---

Lord Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita:

"The four varnas have been created by Me according to the

distribution of the gunas and the karmas; though I am the author

thereof, know Me as non-agent and immutable." (Bh.Gita.IV.13)

The varnas are not based on the distribution of gunas alone, but also

on the karmas. What does it mean?

Life is not lived in isolation. Every single being is connected to

every other being in the universe. And in the course of living one's

life, there is exchange between people, and due to this there are

dues and debts accumulated by each being. Every debt that is

accumulated has to be paid back. It is dharma to pay back what we

have taken from others. And these debts are not all paid back during

the course of one's life.

A person is born into the world with certain debts from the past.

These debts become the person's vishesha dharma as distinguished from

his samanya dharma. To be truthful, charitable, etc are samanya

dharma common to all people, but to have to pay back the debts that

he has accrued in the past is specific to the person. It is his

vishesha dharma. The Varna System is based on the classification of

the debts that have to be paid back.

Every man born into Vaidika Dharma has debts to be paid to the gods.

The gods are also jivas like us, now elevated to a higher realm of

existence, and once upon a time in the inscrutable past, we had

borrowed from them, and we need to pay it back to them now. This is

the rationale of the Vedic varna system. Every person born into

Vaidika Dharma has three types of debts, and one of them is his debt

to the gods. This debt has to be paid back by providing food to the

gods.

Every varna in the Varna System has its own nitya karma. These nitya

karmas are the debts that have to be paid back. A brahmana cannot pay

back his debt to the gods by merely doing other good work, just as he

cannot pay back a loan taken from a bank by doing good work

elsewhere. And nobody else can pay back his debt, because the debt is

paid back through an action that he alone can do. He who refuses to

pay this debt accrues sin.

"He who follows not here the Chakra thus set in motion, who is of

sinful life, indulging in the senses, he lives in vain, O son of

Pritha." (Bh.Gita.III.16)

The basis of Varna System is not guna alone, but also the accrued

debts from the past.

VARNA IS THE BASIS OF UNIVERSAL ORDER

----

The way of this world is called bhuvanadhva. It is the way of earth.

We mortals cannot see beyond the earth. Normal mundane science also

does not see beyond earth (prithvi). That is why we always try to

give reasons for all phenomena in terms of matter and forces of

matter. But beyond bhuvanadhva is tattva-adhva. It is the way of the

tattvas. When a person has pierced through the outer covering

dominated by prithvi, he enters the tattva-adhvan, and he sees all

causes in terms of the (twenty-four) tattvas. And there is another

way to see it, and it is called kala-adhvan. The world is one

enclosure cast above the other, and in the heart of the innermost

enclosure is Ishvara, who alone is the cause of all action, and He

causes it through progressive layers until it surfaces into the world

of this gross matter. And the layer nearest to the Heart is the world

of the gods, and causality passes through from Ishvara as the desires

and actions of the gods before they appear in this world. The gods

live in heaven, in a realm of Consciousness that is full of prana.

That is why the Brahadaranyaka Upanishad says that after a man dies,

his soul goes for the unfolding of its prana, for that is its

experience in heaven and hell.

The gods are elevated souls. Theirs is the world of prana, imbued

always with Life, an erotic playground of desires, for this realm is

also the seat of desire. The gods have two residences. They reside in

the body of all beings having their seat in the indriyas, in the

organs of sense and action. In this residence, the gods obtain their

food through the enjoyment of the senses. Whenever beings enjoy

through their senses, the gods obtain their food. Thus do all beings

pay back to the gods. But the gods have another residence in the

Province of Heaven. Here, they receive their food through the Vedic

yajnas. And this food, they receive from the Vedic Order, through

yajna performed by the brahmana. It is the Order of the Universe, and

it is Order that holds the Universe in place. Sri Shankaracharya says

in the introduction to Gita Bhashya:

"The Lord created the universe, and wishing to secure order therein

He first created the Prajapatis (Lords of the creatures) such as

Marichi and caused them to adopt the Pravritti-Dharma, the Religion

of Works. He then created others such as Sanaka and Sanandana and

caused them to adopt the Nivritti-Dharma, the Religion of

Renunciation, characterised by knowledge and indifference to works.

It is the two-fold Vedic Dharma of Works and Renunciation that

maintains order in the universe."

The brahmana, the kshatriya, the vaishya and the shudra are not just

people; they are people that have specific roles in the Government of

the Universe. The yajnas to be performed by the brahmana are not for

him alone, but for the Governance of the Universe. This Governance is

the Way of Sanatana Dharma and it maintains order in this universe.

We live in this universe in a relationship of mutual welfare with the

gods.

When a brahmana is about to be born, the gods in heaven rejoice, for

they await his arrival in joy. The brahmana is he who shall give to

them their desire, the subtle elements from the yajna that he is to

perform, for these subtle elements from the yajna is their food. The

gods need people as much as people need the gods. Nurturing one

another, they bring happiness to the world. When they stop nurturing

one another, there is darkness and sorrow in the world. That is why

the gods need the brahmana, for the brahmana is their connection to

the world of men, and to the food that they are to receive from

bhuloka. That is why the gods rejoice when a brahmana is born.

When a kshatriya is about to be born, the gods in heaven rejoice, for

they await his arrival in joy. The kshatriya is he who shall protect

the brahmana and the Eternal Dharma so that the gods and the humans

may live nurturing one another. The kshatriya is the protector of the

Order. He it is that ensures that the brahmana may continue to

provide the gods with food.

When the vaishya is about to be born, the gods in heaven rejoice, for

they await his arrival in joy. The vaishya is he who shall cater to

the needs of the Order so that the brahmanas and kshatriyas may

devote themselves to the Order of exchange between the gods and the

people. For without the actions of the Vedic vaishya, the Vedic

dharma will be starved of its accessories.

When the shudra is about to be born, the gods in heaven rejoice, for

they await his arrival in joy. The shudra is he who shall till the

soil, who shall toil to bring forth the produce of the earth, who

shall serve so that the Kingdom of the Universe may prosper. He is

the true servant of the Lord.

People born into Vaidika Dharma are part of the executive body of the

Government of the Universe. Their actions in adhering to their dharma

are not meant for their welfare only, but for the welfare of the

whole Universe. That is the duty given to a man born in Vaidika

Dharma, and it is not in his capacity to redefine it.

"Better one's own duty, though devoid of merit, than the duty of

another well discharged. Better is death in one's own duty; the duty

of another is productive of danger." (III.35)

A brahmana who does not perform his duty is failing in his duty to

the Government of the Universe. It is a special function given to

him. The Veda has been given to him for this purpose. His life is to

learn the Veda, to learn the Vedangas and Upangas, and to live each

stage of his life in accordance with the ashrama system. Did not Lord

Krishna come to Bharata Varsha to establish this dharma?

"These worlds would be ruined if I should not perform action; I

should be the cause of confusion of the varnas, and would thereby

destroy these creatures." (Bh.Gita. III.24)

Just as it is not given to every citizen of a nation to be a member

of the Government of the nation, it is not given to every people of

the world to be a member of the Government of the Universe. It is

given to the people of Vaidika Dharma alone. The Vedas belong to the

whole universe, but the people of Bharata Varsha are its custodians.

They shall be failing the gods by failing in their duty, they shall

be failing their brothers and sisters of the world by failing in

their duty, they shall be failing all the creatures of the world by

failing in their duty.

This is the dark age of Kali Yuga when desire and darkness, instead

of dharma, decides our actions. But the Eternal Dharma does not

change. The Eternal Dharma does not change.

Chittaranjan

March 7, 2006

praNAms Sri Chittaranjan prabhuji

Hare Krishna

A clear & candid explanation of varNa system in our religion prabhuji...My

heartfelt praNAms to you for this beautiful article... I am really very

happy to note that there is absolutely no dis-agreement between us as far

as *dharma* jignAsa is concerned!!

Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

bhaskar

March 7, 2006

advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik"

<chittaranjan_naik wrote:

>

> Om Namah Shivaya

> Om Mata Annapurna

>

> VARNA IS BY BIRTH

> -----------------

>

> <snip>

>

> Varna is a feature of Vedic Dharma. It is applicable only to people

> born into Vaidika Dharma and not to others.

>

> Varna is by birth. A person born into Vaidika Dharma is also born

> into a varna. Birth is not an accident. It depends on the karmas of

> the past. The past life is the yajna, and the present life is part of

> the fruit of the yajna of the past.

>

> <snip>

>

> Chittaranjan

>

Thanks for enlightening us, Chittaranjanji.

What the hell am I doing in IT sector ? As a shudrA, I should be

toiling in some brAhmana's fields.

With these kinds of beliefs, one cannot blame the shUdras for

converting from vaidika dharma to Christianity en-masse. At least,

they get an opportunity to live with dignity.

Regards,

Raj.

March 7, 2006

Namaste Sri Rajkumarji,

advaitin, "rajkumarknair" <rajkumarknair

wrote:

> Thanks for enlightening us, Chittaranjanji.

> What the hell am I doing in IT sector ? As a shudrA,

> I should be toiling in some brAhmana's fields.

> With these kinds of beliefs, one cannot blame the

> shUdras for converting from vaidika dharma to

> Christianity en-masse. At least, they get an

> opportunity to live with dignity.

This is Kali Yuga where opportunity is the main motivation rather than

dharma.

Working in IT sector is a shudra's work.

A brahmana's work is not to own fields. The brahmana who has given up

his dharma and his busy in owning fields and making people (shudras or

otherwise) work for his gain is not being true to his dharma.

The brahmana's work is Vedic learning, Vedic sacrifice and teaching. He

shall live as far as possible only by gleaning corn from the fields,

and from such other means as guru dakshinas, etc. A brahmana does not

have economic advantage as you seem to think. It is the degeneration of

the brahmana that has caused most of the problems to our country. Do

you want to take only the degenerate brahmana as an example to gain

knowledge? Try to understand what brahmanya means. Did you know that

for every small slippage from dharma, the punishment for a brahmana is

severe (as per the dharma shastras) as compared to the lax punishment

for a shudra? Did you know that a shudra has far more freedom than a

brahmana in living his life? It is your emotion and not reason that

makes you speak these words. Please read the dharma shastras and their

basis from the Vedas before you pass judgment about them. The only

disadvantage that a shudra has - if you would like to call it a

disadvantage - is that he can't study or chant the Vedas. But he can

learn all the Smritis, and that inlcudes all the vidyas such as Nyaya,

Philosophy, etc. It is easy to go by the majority opinion, but it is

difficult to strive to know the truth. Since when did opportunity

become a criteria for truth?

Do we want to learn what our culture is, or do we want to take all the

wrong examples from our past and superimpose European history on it to

tarnish everything that is great in our culture? If you want to learn

what our past is, then at least have patience to try and understand it.

The Varnaashrama system is not an economic system. And I am not a

brahmana - I am a shudra because I am not a dvija - but my position or

pecuniary opportunity is no license for me to tarnish truth itself.

What I have said is an attempt to recover the knowledge of our past

from the mouth of every modern-educated person who has nothing to say

about it but bad things. There is an enormous sadness to this attempt

to downgrade the Varnashrama system. It is a deep sadness, a deep

injustice, that is being perpetrated under the name of humanism and

equality. Do you know what it means to shed tears in the name of

dharma? What equality are we talking of? Why don't we free every

murderer lodged in the jails in the name of equality? Why don't we

elevate all the peons and clerks to positions where they will

have 'dignity'? What does justice mean? Is there nothing more to this

life that stretches from birth to death than economic prosperity?

Should I refuse to look beyond my shoulders or beyond the horizons of

this life? Then what Vedanta are we talking about? Vedanta speaks about

giving up even the body and mind! Is it then not better to convert to

Christianity that promises eternal heaven with the equipments of mind

and body intact? Or Islam that promises a paradise full of pleasure

gardens? Dharma is hostage today to personal advantage, opportunity and

warped thinking. I do not believe in toeing this kind of thinking, even

if the whole world considers me a fool, and let me tell you that till

my last breath, I shall utter the greatness of the Varnasharma System.

There is no injustice in the Varnashrama system as you seem to think,

and if one day your heart bids you to study our dharma with humility,

you may understand what I mean.

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

March 7, 2006

Dear Sri Bhaskar Prabhuji,

Our past disagreement makes our present agreement all the more

sweeter. Thank you Prabhuji, I feel very happy whenever I come across

anyone who still believes in the way of our ancient and timeless

dharma.

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

advaitin, bhaskar.yr wrote:

>

> praNAms Sri Chittaranjan prabhuji

> Hare Krishna

>

> A clear & candid explanation of varNa system in our

> religion prabhuji...My heartfelt praNAms to you for

> this beautiful article... I am really very happy to

> note that there is absolutely no dis-agreement between

> us as far as *dharma* jignAsa is concerned!!

>

> Hari Hari Hari Bol!!!

> bhaskar

>

March 7, 2006

Hari OM!

Dear Chittaji,

You are very true, In India, it is really a shame that, still the

un-educated goonda politicians still believe our Dharma Shastras are all not

practical and true. and also inferior. It is a shame in a country where the

Vedas was born, a Vedic University is a Kavivalkaranam.(Saffronisation).

All our school history text books should be changed instead of teaching when

Aurengazeeb sneezed and when did Akbar went for a tour. we should implement

the stories of Vedas, the Chandra gupta Mauryas, chankyas, the great

thinkers of the past ancient India.

Yes, Varnashrama dharma is one of the best system in this world, if it is in

the society in it's true nature. One may say it can happen only in Sathya

Yuga, but actually not, The present situation to our Bharat is only from

past 40 or 50 years. so definitely it all going to see a sea change pretty

soon with in 15 or 20 years more.

The first thing we need to implement is Educational qualification to contest

elections and also if the politicians have criminal history then they should

not be allowed to contest elections.T.N. Sheshan was never supported to

become president of India why? all this busniess making money making

politicians will loose their business badly.

Sorry Moderators if I am off the subject, but could not wait telling at

least this.

With Love & OM!

Krishna Prasad

On 3/7/06, Chittaranjan Naik <chittaranjan_naik wrote:

>

> of thinking, even

> if the whole world considers me a fool, and let me tell you that till

> my last breath, I shall utter the greatness of the Varnasharma System.

> There is no injustice in the Varnashrama system as you seem to think,

> and if one day your heart bids you to study our dharma with humility,

> you may understand what I mean.

>

> Warm regards,

>

> Chittaranjan

>

--

March 7, 2006

Namaste Chittaranjan-ji;

> Varna is a feature of Vedic Dharma. It is applicable only to people

> born into Vaidika Dharma and not to others.

>

> Varna is by birth. A person born into Vaidika Dharma is also born

> into a varna. Birth is not an accident. It depends on the karmas of

> the past. The past life is the yajna, and the present life is part of

> the fruit of the yajna of the past.

>

> Every action of man is connected to every other part of the universe

> by the Wheel of Dharma. Action is the offering in the yajna of life

> and pleasure and pain are the fruits that come back to us from this

> yajna through the Dharma Chakra.

I am confused once again...

Reflecting back on the gita, where does karma and dharma stand

deprived of varna? Being that i have not been born into Vaidika

Dharma, should i understand that there is no dharma at all to me?

Then, am i part of the 5,5 billion walking voids just waiting to be

born again into vaidika dharma so i can start thinking about karma

yoga and starting to become fit for moksha? Being outside of the wheel

of dharma (since my actions sport no consequence, maybe i am just an

extra in the Hindu production of life), should i then understand that

i am not part of the universe that it is connected to?

Finally, would the punchline be that i should forget about meditation,

bhagavad gita, kharma yoga, upanishads, brahma sutras etc, because i

have been born in a context that would rather have me an hour a week

in a building (referred to as the house of god) so that i could listen

to a book lecture and go back to an oblivious life once the talking

has ceased?

my puzzled regards...

March 7, 2006

Dear Sri Felipe,

Your post brought a smile to my face. It appears I have created more

confusion than clarification! Let me then try to clear up the mess I

have created. I am no expert on dharma, I am just trying to

understand its nuances. :-)

advaitin, "fcrema" <fcrema wrote:

> I am confused once again...

>

> Reflecting back on the gita, where does karma and dharma

> stand deprived of varna?

Karma and dharma are universal, and for each person the dharma is as

given by his or her birth. But sometimes God Himself leads from there

on, and in such cases the voice of dharma in the heart is

unmistakable. I am saying this specially considering the many people

that have a genuine turn of heart to follow a different dharma from

those of their birth such as those Christians turning to Buddhism or

Hinduism or Tantra or vice versa (I am of course not speaking of

forced conversion). Here it must be considered as a sign of Grace.

But the word 'varna' as used in the Vedic varnashrama system (with

its specific fourfold classes and their duties) is applicable to

people born into Vaidika Dharma. It is their specific dharma, and

rightful karma, to perform these duties. But karma and dharma is

applicable to all irrespective of where they are born, and the dharma

of each is according to what is given by his or her birth.

BTW, my second post of the day (titled Sanatana Dharma) actually

deals with this topic of different dharmas for different people.

Plato's Crito is a beautiful explanation of dharma. So are 'Gorgias'

and 'Euthyphro'.

> Being that i have not been born into Vaidika Dharma, should

> i understand that there is no dharma at all to me?

One born in another religion, or even in an irreligious society, has

as much dharma as one born in Vaidika Dharma. It is just that their

dharma is different from the dharma of those born in Vaidika Dharma.

> Then, am i part of the 5,5 billion walking voids just

> waiting to be born again into vaidika dharma so i can

> start thinking about karma yoga and starting to become

> fit for moksha?

This is what brought a smile to my lips. The 5.5. billion all have

dharma. And those that follow their dharma among these 5.5. billion

are more dharmic than a person who is born in Vaidika Dharma and does

not follow his dharma.

Moksha is open for all. Sri Shankaracharya says so.

> Being outside of the wheel of dharma

There is no such thing as outside of the wheel of dharma.

> (since my actions sport no consequence, maybe i am just

> an extra in the Hindu production of life), should i then

> understand that i am not part of the universe that it

> is connected to?

Smile. :-)

> Finally, would the punchline be that i should forget

> about meditation, bhagavad gita, kharma yoga, upanishads,

> brahma sutras etc, because i have been born in a context

> that would rather have me an hour a week in a building

> (referred to as the house of god) so that i could listen

> to a book lecture and go back to an oblivious life once

> the talking has ceased?

As far as I am concerned, you are a special Hindu, for you are

blessed by Goddess Saraswati Herself!

I need to clarify that the Vaidika dharma I was speaking of was more

in the context of Pravritti Dharma - the Way of Works. Meditation,

Yoga, Upanishad, etc are parts of Nivritti Dharma - the Way of

Renunciation. So, one who is born outside Vaidika Dharma, but takes

to the Gita, meditation, yoga, etc need not worry about the Pravritti

Dharma of those born into Vaidika Dharma. :-)

> my puzzled regards...

My warmest regards,

Chittaranjan

March 7, 2006

Chittaranji,

Sorry if I questioned your beliefs. Bear with me moderators, if I

am crossing the limits. This will be my last mail on this issue.

This is my view :

1. It is good to be proud of one's heritage and culture. But the

belief that everything that has come out of that culture is

infallible, is plain wrong.

2. No system is infallible. And varnAshrama is no exception.

It may have worked well in the past. But it is impractical in today's

world.

3. The Dharma Shastras need not be static. They have to change as the

society changes. Otherwise they will die out and get replaced by more

flexible systems.

4. Also, there is no reason for a Advaita Vedantin to favour one

system over others. For him, varnAshrama, Democracy, Capitalism,

Communism etc. are all products of avidya.

>

> Working in IT sector is a shudra's work.

>

I will advise my Human Resources Manager to screen the candidates

based on this criteria.

Regards,

Raj.

March 7, 2006

Namaste Sri Rajkumarji,

advaitin, "rajkumarknair" <rajkumarknair

wrote:

> This is my view :

> 1. It is good to be proud of one's heritage and culture.

Being proud of it is good, and finding out what it is, is better.

> But the belief that everything that has come out of that

> culture is infallible, is plain wrong.

Thank you for telling us your belief.

Incidentally, I am not proud of the Kapalikas who used to sacrifice

human beings to various gods, nor do I think that this practice is

particularly good or infallible.

> 2. No system is infallible.

The truth is infallible. Dharma is acting according to swadharma, and

swadharma is the intrinsic truth of the way of things.

2. And varnAshrama is no exception.

How do you know? Have you even got the definitions right?

> It may have worked well in the past. But it is impractical

> in today's world.

Belief such as yours is what makes it impractical.

> 3. The Dharma Shastras need not be static.

Since when did truth begin to change? Dharma is Ritam, the unchanging

meaning - as it is - in Brahman.

> They have to change as the society changes.

The dharma shastra allows for change. But it is not a change of the

dharma itself. The change pertains to visheshas that lie in the

samanya of the people's dharmas - it is merely the vishesha suitable

for the time that surfaces. Those different manifestations of the

same dharma over time is the change that is permitted in dharma. The

other change that is permitted is the dilution of dharmic actions

under extreme conditions.

> Otherwise they will die out and get replaced by more

> flexible systems.

What is the goal of these flexible systems? We are talking of dharma

here - of the good of man and woman not limited to the myopic

boundary of the human lifespan.

Every good thing dies out when moderation and temperance is lost.

Desire has no limit, and it spawns any number of flexible systems

that are made flexible enough to accomodate these desires. What you

will end up with flewxible systems is a population full of wounded

psyches, with a society that lives in an ersatz reality, with a

culture that has no regard for truth.... yes, we have seen many of

these flexible systems working already.

> 4. Also, there is no reason for a Advaita Vedantin to

> favour one system over others.

Are you speaking of the jivan-mukta or the sadhaka? I think you are

confused. The sadhaka of Advaita Vedanta walks the path of dharma.

Even a sannyasi has his dharma.

> For him, varnAshrama, Democracy, Capitalism, Communism

> etc. are all products of avidya.

Then why are you perturbed? When you are perturbed, there is a path

to remove the perturbation. Will you sit with the perturbation saying

it is all a product of avidya? If you knew it was a product of

avidya, then you wouldn't have been perturbed with these words which

after all are products of avidya. My dear friend, the Advaitin who

says that dharma is avidya is deluded. Do you to the view

that you can kill and loot your neighbour because it is all a product

of avidya?

> Working in IT sector is a shudra's work.

>

> I will advise my Human Resources Manager to screen

> the candidates based on this criteria.

You needn't bother, all candidates have chosen to be shudras by their

choice to apply for the job. :-)

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

March 7, 2006

Dear Chittaranjanji,

In general when I post in this list and other similar lists, I post

using the same assumptions that others might use. Without doing this,

it becomes difficult to have meaningful discussions on a focused

subject.

However, here I will be going directly against some very important

assumptions and will try to show that in my opinion they are

ultimately unjustified. Some people don't like this because it weakens

faith and so on, but I think its something important to do.

Now the whole discussion about varna is really dependent on something

much more basic. As you say: "The Smriti follows the Shruti and it

speaks no lie."

Clearly, Sri Rajkumarji does not accept this. Now we are in a list

that follows smarta tradition so the acceptance of the validity of

smriti (as well as sruti) is a basic assumption on which further

discussion generally depends on (another assumption in this group is

that Shankara's interpretation is correct). These are of course good

assumptions because it narrows the discussion to people who want to

discuss with some premises taken for granted. We could never get

around to discussing Shankara's Advaita if every single discussion

called into question whether Madhva or Ramanuja might have interpreted

the passage better.

But I don't think this should stop us from thinking whether or or not

Shankara might have been wrong or in this case, whether it is

justified to believe sruti and smriti are infallible.

We can reduce other issues to sruti and smriti as proof, but why

accept sruti and smriti? If it is just blind faith, then we would be

equally justified to believe that the earth will be eaten by a giant

elephant, because both would be faith without a reason.

So I assume you have some reason for your belief and I will not

pre-emptively try to answer, but will wait for your reply first. Why

do you accept sruti and smriti?

Regards,

Rishi.

March 7, 2006

Namaste Chittaranjan-ji;

Just as the flame that lights others, your smiles are now mine as well.

Some of the remarks i made were not really that serious, however

puzzled my reaction was (which i just found out to be an anagram for

creation)...

Thank you for your kind words...

There's just something left (besides the blatantly large lot of other

things to say on the topic...) that i still have to understand... The

farther i see (or from further beyond i see things from), the more

responsible i have to become, otherwise i would just be growing in

hypocrisy. So i take it that as good does not comes so organized and

structured to me, unordered comes the responsibility.

So, in a sense, even though i have not got to worry about the pavritti

dharma of the organized varna system, i have to worry about the messy

"unstructured varna system" (even though not structured, i have proof

and hints of its existence all the time) of the west. Am i right?

My warmest (and not so puzzled anymore) regards...

March 7, 2006

Chittaranjanji,

> Incidentally, I am not proud of the Kapalikas who

> used to sacrifice

> human beings to various gods, nor do I think that

> this practice is

> particularly good or infallible.

Sorry. You are not making a fair comparison to Sri

Raj's point of contention. Request moderators to bear

with me if this is too much.

Sri Raj's point was to say that not everything in YOUR

OWN CULTURE is good or infallible. Human sacrifice, I

trust is not YOUR culture. But varanaashrama is dear

to you and is YOUR CULTURE. You dwell on it and cling

to it. (Sorry to point out, but you do have a sort of

attachment for it although you may find it bitter in

taste for me to point it out.) To say that everything

in YOUR OWN CULTURE is infallible is not right.

You conveniently pointed out Kapalikas, temporarily

classifying it as 'YOUR CULTURE' and dispensing of it

by saying that you donot approve of it, when the fact

is that you hardly to the ideas of the

Kapalikas. This is not fair.

To recognize a fault in one's own culture and to

gracefully accept it and correct it takes courage and

wisdom. The greatest mark of Indian culture has been

to accept the faults of one's own culture and to

correct the very same.

For example, brahmins in ancient times used to

sacrifice animals as a holy oblation and would consume

the meat of such animals. This was rightly recognized

as a sin and hence abandoned today, perhaps as an

influence of Jainism.

It is not wrong to accept the faults of one's dear

culture. Yet I can understand how difficult it would

be and hence shall not argue any further on this.

> > 2. No system is infallible.

>

> The truth is infallible. Dharma is acting according

> to swadharma, and

> swadharma is the intrinsic truth of the way of

> things.

Let's also see the meaning of the term svadharma. The

word dharma means nature. The prefix 'sva' is used for

'pertaining to the self'. It is to be noted that it is

not 'mama dharma' or 'tava dharma' but 'svadharma'

where the word 'sva' talks of the Self in and of

itself, immutable and inscrutible.

To know the nature of the Self is the primary goal.

Dwelling on all other things belonging to the realm of

avidya is nothing but 'paradharma'.

Now try to understand the meaning of the verse

"svadharme nidhanam shreyah, paradharmo bhayavahah".

Have you ever wondered why Sri Krishna says

'svadharma' instead of 'tava dharma' or 'te dharma'

meaning 'your duty'.

Does caste describe the true nature of your Self? If

yes, then caste is 'your duty'. Yet it is only yours

and need not apply to others.

> 2. And varnAshrama is no exception.

>

> How do you know? Have you even got the definitions

> right?

>

> > It may have worked well in the past. But it is

> impractical

> > in today's world.

>

> Belief such as yours is what makes it impractical.

I wish you would look at things objectively than with

so much belligerence.

> > 3. The Dharma Shastras need not be static.

>

> Since when did truth begin to change? Dharma is

> Ritam, the unchanging

> meaning - as it is - in Brahman.

You forgot that the Shastras are but perfectly

scrutible, but Brahman is inscrutible. You can't

equate the two.

Unfortunately, the term Shastras is defined loosely.

It may as well particularly mean the Manu-smritis

alone or the whole of the Hindu texts, including

Upanishads, often miscontrued in this manner with the

view of putting elements such as caste in the same

category as aphorisms such as 'tattvamasi'.

It is therefore important to understand the context in

which the term 'Shastra' has been used. The point of

contention is the caste system, not aphorisms such as

'tattvamasi'. Therefore, the text in concern is the

dharma-shastras of social order alone and not the

Upanishads or Veda.

In such a case, terms such as 'ritam', 'aatman',

'param', 'brahman' etc. donot apply.

Further, for a person interested in enlightenment, it

is important to know that everything in this universe

is subject to change. This is called the awareness and

discrimination of anicca in Buddhism and

Nityaanitya-vastu-viveka in Advaita. Brahman alone is.

All others are subject to change - even shastra/Pali

Canon/Bible.

> > 4. Also, there is no reason for a Advaita Vedantin

> to

> > favour one system over others.

>

> Are you speaking of the jivan-mukta or the sadhaka?

> I think you are

> confused. The sadhaka of Advaita Vedanta walks the

> path of dharma.

> Even a sannyasi has his dharma.

Point well taken. Yet, karma-yoga teaches to practice

karma, but to transcend the idea of agentship, thus

leading to enlightenment. One therefore should not

remain attached to this caste system. But then, for

the purpose of having a social order, nature

automatically divides humans according to their

actions and qualities. This social order is built for

people to perform actions and reap their fruits. The

castes are only for the purpose of social order and

for the fruition of actions.

My dear friend,

> the Advaitin who

> says that dharma is avidya is deluded. Do you

> to the view

> that you can kill and loot your neighbour because it

> is all a product

> of avidya?

It would be appreciated if the relevence of the above

example could be drawn to the matter being discussed -

caste system. You said that castes belong to the realm

of vishesha dharma, then how come you are comparing it

with Samanya dharma?

To tell a person with no discrimination that all this

is a product of avidya is the biggest mistake. Instead

teach the person to know the nature of stress, it's

origin, it's cessation and the path to it's cessation.

The problem with such onotlogical positions such as

"all this is a product of avidya" is that they can

confound the mind with no discrimination. Such

ontolgical or metaphysical statements are best

discarded!

Finally, we need to ascertain if caste if dharma. The

word dharma means - that which leads to liberation.

The only thing that leads to liberation is knowledge

and knowledge (prajna/jnana) alone. Caste is not

Prajna or jnana. Then how can you call it dharma.

If a person indeed calls prajna as avidya, he is

indeed deluded. But caste is not prajna.

Conclusion:

------------

I have drawn several times that the caste system is a

natural development of society. Today's

castes/caste-equivalents are:

1. Intellectuals, scientists, professors, teachers

2. Law-makers, soldiers, policemen

3. Businessmen, Enterprenuers

4. Laborer

Although widely different from ancient days they do

act similarly. Yet, all these people have different

desires and perform acts according to their nature -

gunas.

The first look for the subtle results of action,

through intellect - sattva. The second and third look

for the gross results of action, through wealth and

power - rajas. The last desire the sensuous through

food, alcohol, drugs and women - tamas.

The above was only a classification of the gunas be

predominance. It does not mean that intellectuals

don't desire food, alcohol, drugs, cigarettes or

women.

When one transcends these gunas and goes beyond the

three gunas, he enters the path of enlightenment:

"traigunya vishaya vedaa, nistraigunyo

bhavaarjuna...."

The caste system is only meant for social order and

has nothing to do with dharma. This is shown by one of

the great exponents of Advaita Vedanta that lived

recently - Sri Chandrshekhara Bharati of the Sringeri

monastery. When someone asked his opinion on the

inter-caste marriages his answer was lucid and clear:

"Marriages are social institutions. The only criterion

of the shastras is that the gotra should not match.

This is due to a natural (biological) reason. All

other aspects are social considerations and I leave it

to each one to do as he deems fit in the situation."

One of the marks of a truly awakened man is his

detachment from social fetters.

-Bhikku Yogi.

March 7, 2006

Namaste ALL

As per the orthodoxy our non-Indian members are maleeche

(contaminated) as, being foreigners, they belong to no caste. Hindu

tradition states that those who 'travel the black waters' will lose

their caste and be outside the Hindu community. So because I have

come to the US, I too am a maleeche. If the orthodoxy is to be

believed than our status is worse than the Shudras. Whereas the

Shudras are at least allowed to listen to the Puraanas, we are to be

totally excommunicated from the Hindu community. No Vedas for us

then.

Now let me point out a contradiction. Our Lead Moderator is a

foreigner. As a philosopher, he will agree that if this user group

believed that caste was by birth and not by gunas they would never

have democratically elected him to this post.

Advaita, the non-dualistic philosophy expounded in detail by Shri

Shankara, does not recognize differences between people based on

caste, creed, religion, gender etc since we are all the

manifestations of the same Brahman. It is my conviction that the

words of the Acharaya have been corrupted by people with vested

interests. The great Acharaya could not say and mean two different

things. To me this is clear from his work maniishhaapaJNchakaM, from

which I quote below. This extract is taken from an excellent document

which provides evidence on the guna basis of caste. It is available

at:

http://www.hindu-

international.org/books/articles/varna_jaati_or_caste.pdf

Shankaras maniishhaapaJNchakaM:

<quote>

If one is convinced firmly, that he is that very

Soul which manifests itself in all the

conditions of sleep, wakefulness and dream,

in all the objects from the great Brahma (the

creator) to the tiny ant and which is also the

vibrant, but invisible, witnesser of all, then as

per my clear conclusion, he is the great

teacher/preceptor, be he a twice-born (i.e

higher castes) or an outcaste.

I have provided below evidence from the Vedas that the Varna system

(if at all it existed) meant classes with free mobility of jobs and

intermarriage. Further evidence can be obtained by pursuing the

document at :

http://www.hindu-

international.org/books/articles/varna_jaati_or_caste.pdf

**

YAJUR VEDA 26:2.

God says:- "As I have given this Word (i.e., the four Vedas) which is

the word of salvation* for all making [Here some one might say that

by the word Jana, which we have translated into all mankind, only

Dwijas are meant, as in the Smritis** ( so-called) they alone are

allowed to study the Veda but not women and Shoodraas, the other half

of this verse answers this objection by adding] - Braahmans,

Kshatryas, Vaishyaas, Shoodraas, women, servants, aye, even the

lowest of the low, so should you all do, i.e., teach and preach the

Veda and thereby acquire true knowledge, practise virtue, shun vice,

and consequently being freed from all sorrow and pain, enjoy true

happiness."

**

It is very clear that in the early Vedic times, the Varna system (if

at all it existed) meant classes with free mobility of jobs and

intermarriage. One hymn of the Rig Veda states:

(RV 9.112.3)

"I am a bard, my father is a physician, my mother's job is to grind

the corn......"

**

Even Girls to study the Vedas:

ATHARVA VEDA 11, 14:3, 18.

"Just as boys acquire sound knowledge and culture by the practice of

Brahmacharya and then marry girls of their own choice, who are

young , well educated, loving and of like temperament, should girl

practice Brahmacharya study the Veda and other sciences and thereby

perfect her knowledge, refine her character, give her hand to a man

of her own choice, who is young, learned and loving."

**

Leaving religion aside, on a philosophical and ethical level which of

the following appear to be the more subtle, higher level of

consciousness?:

1) All men are equal

2) All men in the same caste are equal

#2 is a qualified statement ( qualified by "in the same caste").

Seeing things in a higher light means getting to more subtle and

generic levels of understanding. "ALL Men" is a more generic, subtle

and encompassing term than "All men in a caste". And God, in

which "All men" reside is a still more subtle statement than "All

men".

Ayn Rand in "Anthem" and Aldous Huxley in his " Brave New World"

paint a wonderful picture of the direction the orthodoxy wants to

take us to. If their conclusions are to be followed, Hitler is the

apt role model for us to follow because he sought to make everyone

Aryan (read Brahmin).

The spirit of Shankaras non-dual teaching together with his verses in

maniishhaapaJNchakaM should make it clear that what he meant by

Shudra was (in the words of Swami Dayanand):

"Wherever it is declared (in the books of Rishis) that the Shoodraas

are

debarred from the study of the Veda, the prohibition simply amounts

to this that he,

that does not learn anything even after a good deal of teaching,

being ignorant

and destitute of understanding, is called a Shoodraa. It is useless

for him to learn, and for others to teach him any longer."

Warm Regards

Hersh

March 7, 2006

Namaste all

As per the orthodoxy our non-Indian members are maleeche

(contaminated) as, being foreigners, they belong to no caste. Hindu

tradition states that those who 'travel the black waters' will lose

their caste and be outside the Hindu community. So because I have

come to the US, I too am a maleeche. If the orthodoxy is to be

believed than our status is worse than the Shudras. Whereas the

Shudras are at least allowed to listen to the Puraanas, we are to be

totally excommunicated from the Hindu community. No Vedas for us

then.

Now let me point out a contradiction. Our Lead Moderator is a

foreigner. As a philosopher, he will agree that if this user group

believed that caste was by birth and not by gunas they would never

have democratically elected him to this post.

Advaita, the non-dualistic philosophy expounded in detail by Shri

Shankara, does not recognize differences between people based on

caste, creed, religion, gender etc since we are all the

manifestations of the same Brahman. It is my conviction that the

words of the Acharaya have been corrupted by people with vested

interests. The great Acharaya could not say and mean two different

things. To me this is clear from his work maniishhaapaJNchakaM, from

which I quote below. This extract is taken from an excellent document

which provides evidence on the guna basis of caste. It is available

at:

http://www.hindu-

international.org/books/articles/varna_jaati_or_caste.pdf

Shankaras maniishhaapaJNchakaM:

<quote>

If one is convinced firmly, that he is that very

Soul which manifests itself in all the

conditions of sleep, wakefulness and dream,

in all the objects from the great Brahma (the

creator) to the tiny ant and which is also the

vibrant, but invisible, witnesser of all, then as

per my clear conclusion, he is the great

teacher/preceptor, be he a twice-born (i.e

higher castes) or an outcaste.

I have provided below evidence from the Vedas that the Varna system

(if at all it existed) meant classes with free mobility of jobs and

intermarriage. Further evidence can be obtained by pursuing the

document at : http://www.hindu-