The Varna System: Devata

[Guest guest]

Dear Chittranjanji

 

Due to the post limitation rules, I am lumping my observations to

your posts 30444 and 30455 together:

 

> re: maleeche ..Why bring in the non-Indian members of this group

into a discussion

>that pertains to the dharma of Indians? The words 'mlechha'

>and 'contaminated' were used in the context of purity - the purity

>that is required to commune with the gods.

AND

>Is this group meant for communing with the gods?

 

Yes! this group is meant for communing with the Gods.

 

What is a God or a Devata?

 

 

-The word deva connotes all the ten meanings of the root divu, viz.,

sport, desire to conquer, activity, luster, praise, joy, dejection,

sleep, beauty and progression, in whichever of the two senses it may

be used.

 

Devas are one that give us light

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

-The Nirukta VII.15, says that the devas are so called because they

give, shine, illumine or instruct or because they have their abode in

the regions of light.

 

-The Taittriyopanishad refers to 5 devas who are to be honored and

worshipped by all men.

 

Let thy mother be to thee like unto a deva;

Let thy father be to thee like unto a deva;

Let thy preceptor be to thee like unto a deva;

Let thy guest be to thee like unto a deva. VII. 11.

 

Mantra as Devata

~~~~~~~~~~~~

-The Yajurveda XI. 20, says: "Agni devata, vata is devata, Adityas

are devatas, Vasus are devatas, Maruts are devatas, Vishvedevas are

devatas, Vrihaspati is devata, Indra is devata and Varuna is devata."

 

-In action-portion the word devata signifies the Vedic mantras, the

meters Gayatri and Agni, etc., as in the above quoted verse. They are

so called because they explain the method of doing an act. A mantra

which reveals the meaning of the word Agni is said to have Agni for

its devata.

 

Similarly, those verses, which bring to light the meaning of the

words Vata Surya, Chandraama, Vasus, Rudras, Adityas, Maruts,

Vishvedevas, Vrihaspati, Indra, and Varuna are said to have those

substances for their devata.

 

-On this point I quote two observations of Yaskacharya which occur in

his Nirukta I. 2. and VII. 1.

 

(1)When a mantra describes the ways of successfully performing the

arts or the Yajna from the Agnihotra to the Ashva medha - that mantra

is technically called devata in the Veda or when a mantra describes

emancipation or union with God, which is the ultimate object of all

action, it as well as its meaning is given the name devata.

 

(2) When a devata forms the chief subject of the exposition in a

mantra it is called daivata. The names of substances and their

explanations occurring in a mantra become the signs or marks of a

devata e.g., in the 7th mantra of the Yajurveda, the word Agni is

the mark of devata. It is, hence, evident that wherever a devata is

spoken of it signifies the mantra which bears its mark. A mantra has

that substance as its devata whose name occurs therein.

 

Nirukta VII, 4. What is the test for finding out the devata of a

mantra in which the name or the meaning of its devata does not

specifically occur? In the case of such mantras, in which the devata

is not visible on the surface, it should be understood to be Yajna or

a component part of Yajna. But, as regards those mantras which cannot

have Yajna for their devata, the latter is Prajapati - God. This is

the opinion of the Yajnikas.

 

Senses as Devata

~~~~~~~~~~~

In Yajurveda XL 4, the word ceva means the five senses hearing, etc.,

and the manas. The senses and the manas are called devas because they

convey to us the sensations of sound, touch, color and form, taste

and smell, and enable us to know the truth and the untruth.

 

GOD is the chief Devata

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I refer to Nirukta VII.4, which purports to say:

 

Of all the devatas which are helpful to using the affairs of our life

God is the chief devata, because He alone possesses such qualities as

Almightiness, etc., Before Him no other devata can lay claim to

devata-hood, for, all the Vedas ordain in various ways the worship of

Him alone - He being one without a second, independent of the help of

others, and all-pervading.

 

Therefore, all the other devatas, of which we have spoken or of which

we shall speak hereafter are only secondary limbs, as it were, of the

one God. They are manifested in only a small portion of His might.

 

They are action-born or self-born because they owe their existence to

divine acts or to divine Might. God is the resting place fo these

devatas. He is the causse of their movements. He is their weapon with

which they prevail and He is their arrow, the destroyer of all

misery. God is all in all of the devas, i.e., Heis their creator,

sustainer, ruler and benefactor. There is nothing nobler or higher

than God.

 

I quote here some mantras from the Vedas on this subject.:

 

"The thirty three devas for whose sake a Yajna is performed take

their shares and return them to us twofold." Rigveda VI.2.35.1

 

"Know full and completely the thirty three devas. God - the Lord of

creatures - is their over Lord and Master. He keeps all created

things under control." Yajurveda XIV. 31

 

"Over whose riches the thirty three devas keep a constant watch. Who

can now know his riches which are protected by the thirty three

devas."

 

"The thirty three devas fulfill their allotted functions in God's

creation (anga -lit'. body). Some learned in the Vedas know those

thirty three dvas." AtharvaX23.4-23 & 27.

 

 

Advaita group is a Devata because it illumines

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thus in some cases God, in others, actions or mother, or father or

holy guest or learned are taken as the devata of the mantras. The

reason is that father, mother, etc., are worthy of respect and

benefactors and so possess the shining virtues of a devata. The

verses of the Vedas have success in Yajna as their chief object and

hence they have the latter for their devata.

 

Now because this group imparts the light of knowledge, it is very

much a deveta.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Coming to another statement of yours:

>>That is why Vedic understanding is to be undertaken through Mimamsa

and not

>through the positivist method of giving meaning to each disjointed

>verse.

AND

> ...and that you've discovered it through your interpretation of

some isolated verse in the Vedas?

 

 

The use of words like "disjointed words" in connection with Vedic

Mantras is improper for one who holds the Vedic faith. This is

because a Vedic Mantra is never incomplete. Each mantra is complete

by itself and does not need the support of any further context. Are

you going to understand the Gayatri in connection with the mantras

that preceed or succeed it? When we do Sandhya do we read each

mandala of the Rik in sequence? Do we not recite a selection of the

mantras selected from the four vedas. So EACH MANTRA IS COMPLETE IN

ITSELF. There is question of disjointed or isolated verse when we

talk of vedic mantras.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Regarding the question of equality:

>>How many people are there in this world

>that take the beggars from the street to their homes to provide them

>food to eat and a shelter to sleep? Not many, I assure you..Let us

not fool ourselves about

>this equality stuff.

 

Are we going to stretch ourselves to our highest ideals or are we

going to cut down our ideals so that they fit us? If we cannot take

beggars home with us we must admit to our material and spiritual

limitations but must not doctor our ideals so that they become

acceptable to us.

 

Pranams

Hersh

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Hershji,

 

I shall be withdrawing from this discussion. I had intended to post a

long message before retiring from the discussion, but the devatas

didn't grant me my wish. I had spent five hours today writing a

(long) post and then my hard disc crashed. It is probably a sign that

I should not speak much on this topic. In any case, I do not have the

energy to go through it again, and therefore I will say only three

things:

 

1. You are missing a main element while speaking about devatas - that

they are jivas like you and me, that they too feel happiness and

misery, that they too are dependent on others for their welfare.

 

2. You have misunderstood what I said about Vedic sentences. I had

not said that a Vedic sentence is not complete in itself. I had said

that Vedartha, the One meaning in which all these mantras are strung,

together, is obtained by Mimamsa and not by construing the meanings

of each sentence separately. The Unitary Vision is what makes one a

mantra-drishta, and competent enough to speak about dharma. Each

mantra is charged with the respective shakti, the mantri behind the

mantra, but the knowledge of matrika-chakra comes from the Unitary

Vision.

 

3. The ideal that you speak of pertains to a context where there is

no revolution of the dharma chakra. Shankara says, clearly and

unequivocally, that dharma and Vedic karma arise only in the context

of non-discrimination between Self and non-Self. Dharma arises only

when the ideal is lost, and the way to that ideal is dharma. When you

see the truth, there is no dharma chakra. When you don't see the

truth, there is the dharma chakra, and yet this dharma arises from

truth itself. This is Maya. You cannot speak to one who is obscured

by avidya and tell him to abide by the ideal. The way to attain even

a hankering for this ideal is praviritti dharma. By performing

pravritti dharma, one gets chitta shuddi, and prepares oneself for

nivritti dharma.

 

That is all I wish to say here. My purpose in writing the post on

Varnaashrama System was to point out that varna is decided not only

by the distribution of gunas, but also by two other factors - debt

and universal order.

 

And before I quit, a few quotes from the Bagavad Gita:

 

"Brahma, the creator, in the beginning created human beings together

with Yajna and said: By Yajna you shall prosper and Yajna shall

fulfill all your desires." (3.10)

 

"Nourish the Devas with Yajna, and the Devas will nourish you. Thus

nourishing one another you shall attain the Supreme goal." (3.11)

 

"The Devas, nourished by Yajna, will give you the desired objects.

One who enjoys the gift of the Devas without offering them (anything

in return) is, indeed, a thief." (3.12)

 

"The righteous who eat the remnants of the Yajna are freed from all

sins, but the impious who cook food only for themselves verily eat

sin." (3.13)

 

"The living beings are born from food, food is produced by rain, rain

comes by performing Yajna. The Yajna is performed by doing Karma."

(3.14)

 

"The Karma or duty is prescribed in the Vedas. The Vedas come from

Brahman. Thus the all-pervading Brahman is ever present in Yajna or

service." (3.15)

 

"The one who does not help to keep the wheel of creation in motion by

sacrificial duty, and who rejoices in sense pleasures, that sinful

person lives in vain, O Arjuna." (3.16)

 

"Yajna enjoined by the shastra, performed with a firm belief that it

is a duty, and without the desire for the fruit, is Saattvika Yajna."

(17.11)

 

"Yajna that is performed without following shastra, in which no food

is distributed, which is devoid of mantra, faith, and gift, is said

to be Taamasika Yajna." (17.13)

 

"OM TAT SAT" is said to be the threefold name of Brahman. The

Braahmana, the Vedas, and the Yajna were created from this in the

ancient time." (17.23)

 

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

 

 

advaitin, "hersh_b" <hershbhasin wrote:

 

> >Is this group meant for communing with the gods?

>

> Yes! this group is meant for communing with the Gods.

>

> What is a God or a Devata?

>

>

> -The word deva connotes all the ten meanings of the

> root divu, viz., sport, desire to conquer, activity,

> luster, praise, joy, dejection, sleep, beauty and

> progression, in whichever of the two senses it may

> be used.

 

> Coming to another statement of yours:

>

> The use of words like "disjointed words" in connection

> with Vedic Mantras is improper for one who holds the

> Vedic faith. This is because a Vedic Mantra is never

> incomplete. Each mantra is complete by itself and does

> not need the support of any further context.

 

> Regarding the question of equality:

>

> Are we going to stretch ourselves to our highest ideals

> or are we going to cut down our ideals so that they fit

> us? If we cannot take beggars home with us we must admit

> to our material and spiritual limitations but must not

> doctor our ideals so that they become acceptable to us.

>

> Pranams

> Hersh

>