The Varna System

[Guest guest]

A sugar coated caste system; carrion , whatever you call it will stink the same!

This is the blunt truth! face it!

with respect

Rakesh Krishnan

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

post 30455

 

chitta writes :

 

(How many people are there in this world that take the beggars from

the street to their homes to provide them food to eat and a shelter

to sleep? Not many, I assure you. But you will find many believers

in equality who leave the beggars in the street, starving and

hungry, when they themselves sleep in the comfort of their beds with

the cosy feeling that all men are equal. )

 

Sad, is it not ? But the few that do so are accused of having

uklterior motives ! Take Mother Teresa, for instance. When she took

the poor dying beggars off the streets of Calcutta and took them home

to her Missionary , BATHED THEM AND FED THEM AND GAVE THEM A DINIFIED

EXISTENCE - THE VERY HINDUS in that city of Squalor ( but also of

great mahatmas like sri ramakrishna paramahams) protested saying that

SHe WAS TRYING TO 'CONVERT' THESE BEGGARS INTO CHRISTIANS . tELL ME

FOLKS, DOES THE BEGGAR HAVE AN IDENTITY ? dO WE KNOW WHETHER HE IS A

BRAHMIN OR A SHUDRA ? HE IS FIRST A GOD'S CHILD JUST LIKE YOU AND ME!

he needs to be treated with respect and honor and not contempt. OK.

OK. I HEAR SOMEONE SAYING "teach him to fish; do not give him a

fish" -

 

Yes! ALL MEN ARE NOT EQUAL - as Geroge orwell would say " some are

more equal than others."

 

so how to not perpepetuate this myth "equality is a myth" - please do

not make a myth into a reality by subscribing to old fashioned views

on on the caste system ! Create 'equal' opportunities - then

automatically the inequality gap will be narrowed if not totally

eradicated! More and more scavengers need to get JOBS in the IT

sector by teaching them computer skiils ! Bill gates, are you

listening? If brahmins can leave their profession of priesthood and

take up other vocations/professions, why can't other castes do the

same thing ? By doing riuals, one does not become a Brahmin - that

is only a'show' ... To be a brahmin, one has to practice all the

vedic dictums such as Charity ...towards his fellow men/women.

 

Poet BHARATIYAAR SANG

 

" PARAYARUKKUM, THEEYARUKKUM VIDUTALAI , VIDUTALAI "

 

LET fREEDOM RING FOR THE PARIAHS (UNTOUCHABLES) AND THE THEEYAS

(LOWER CASTE )

 

aS MARTIN LUTHER KING WOULD SAY " INJUSTICE TO SOMEONE IS INJUSTICE

TO EVERYONE"

 

TAGORE SINGS

 

Friendless as a child

 

And looking far away,

 

I live my days in solitude.

 

I was born in a world

 

Unloved, unclean,

 

A world without walls and blazons.

 

My neighbors' homes were circled by high fences.

 

I was a nameless boy, an outcast,

 

They had fine and crowded homes;

>From afar, I watched their coming and their going

 

Along the paved way.

 

I have no caste,

 

And may not dine with them.

 

The men brought up in ritual and creed

 

Did not recognize Man in me,

 

Therefore I played on the streets alone.

 

Holding up their robes, they passed by,

 

And plucked flowers for the worship of their God,

 

Flowers plucked by the rules of their holy books;

 

And for my God, left behind

 

Flowers from all lands,

 

Flowers blessed by the same sun.

 

Neglected by the crowd

 

I have roved, hungry for unity with Man,

 

Whose guest-house has no walls, no guards.

 

Beyond the crowd I have found friends in my solitude,

 

Friends who in history's great Ages

 

Have come with lights,

 

Come with the Great Message.

 

They are heroes, death-conquerers,

 

They are my kith and kin,

 

My caste and my lineage.

 

By their constant purity, I am made pure.

 

They are Truth's pilgrims,

 

Light's worshippers,

 

Worthy possessors of Amrita*.

 

In the narrow circle, I have lost Man

 

And found him there, where he transcends

 

The limits of all lands.

 

With folded hands, I have prayed to Him:

 

'O Eternal Man, you who belong to all men,

 

Save me from the arrogance of Pride,

 

That wears the mark of Exclusion.'

 

Rabindranath Tagore (1861-1941)

 

 

CHITTA THERE IS 'DHARMA', 'SWADHARMA' AND 'SANATANA DHARMA ' - as

Gandhiji says ' if hinduism to be a permanent force in the world,

then all distinctions of caste and creed and gender should vanish

from the face of the earth"

 

love and blessings

[Guest guest]

Chittaranjanji,

I will respond to your mail since moderators have allowed the

discussion on this topic to continue.

 

advaitin, "Chittaranjan Naik"

<chittaranjan_naik wrote:

>

> Namaste Sri Rajkumarji,

>

> advaitin, "rajkumarknair" <rajkumarknair@>

> wrote:

>

> > This is my view :

>

> > 1. It is good to be proud of one's heritage and culture.

>

> Being proud of it is good, and finding out what it is, is better.

>

>

> > But the belief that everything that has come out of that

> > culture is infallible, is plain wrong.

>

> Thank you for telling us your belief.

>

> Incidentally, I am not proud of the Kapalikas who used to sacrifice

> human beings to various gods, nor do I think that this practice is

> particularly good or infallible.

>

 

So you agree to with my belief. Thanks.

>

> > 2. No system is infallible.

>

> The truth is infallible. Dharma is acting according to swadharma, and

> swadharma is the intrinsic truth of the way of things.

>

>

> 2. And varnAshrama is no exception.

>

> How do you know? Have you even got the definitions right?

>

>

> > It may have worked well in the past. But it is impractical

> > in today's world.

>

> Belief such as yours is what makes it impractical.

>

 

Maybe. My beliefs are based on the environment and society in which I

grew up. And in that society, I don't see any practical need of

assigning jobs and lifestyles to individuals based on the caste in

which they are born. Maybe 5000 years back it was practical. But not

today.

>

> > 3. The Dharma Shastras need not be static.

>

> Since when did truth begin to change? Dharma is Ritam, the unchanging

> meaning - as it is - in Brahman.

>

 

Dharma shastras prohibit Brahmins from crossing the oceans. Is it

practical today ?

>

> > They have to change as the society changes.

>

> The dharma shastra allows for change. But it is not a change of the

> dharma itself. The change pertains to visheshas that lie in the

> samanya of the people's dharmas - it is merely the vishesha suitable

> for the time that surfaces. Those different manifestations of the

> same dharma over time is the change that is permitted in dharma. The

> other change that is permitted is the dilution of dharmic actions

> under extreme conditions.

>

>

> > Otherwise they will die out and get replaced by more

> > flexible systems.

>

> What is the goal of these flexible systems? We are talking of dharma

> here - of the good of man and woman not limited to the myopic

> boundary of the human lifespan.

>

 

These flexible systems are the vishesha dharmas of this age. The

Democratic society, Capitalism, Equal opportunity etc.

As I mentioned earlier, these systems also are not infallible. They

might also get replaced in the course of time.

> Every good thing dies out when moderation and temperance is lost.

> Desire has no limit, and it spawns any number of flexible systems

> that are made flexible enough to accomodate these desires. What you

> will end up with flewxible systems is a population full of wounded

> psyches, with a society that lives in an ersatz reality, with a

> culture that has no regard for truth.... yes, we have seen many of

> these flexible systems working already.

>

>

> > 4. Also, there is no reason for a Advaita Vedantin to

> > favour one system over others.

>

> Are you speaking of the jivan-mukta or the sadhaka? I think you are

> confused. The sadhaka of Advaita Vedanta walks the path of dharma.

> Even a sannyasi has his dharma.

>

 

Advaita Vedantin walks the path of knowledge. He should be concerned

about discriminating between truth and untruth, between self and

non-self. He need not be concerned about whether or not a social

system which existed 5000 years ago should continue forever.

>

> > For him, varnAshrama, Democracy, Capitalism, Communism

> > etc. are all products of avidya.

>

> Then why are you perturbed? When you are perturbed, there is a path

> to remove the perturbation. Will you sit with the perturbation saying

> it is all a product of avidya? If you knew it was a product of

> avidya, then you wouldn't have been perturbed with these words which

> after all are products of avidya. My dear friend, the Advaitin who

> says that dharma is avidya is deluded. Do you to the view

> that you can kill and loot your neighbour because it is all a product

> of avidya?

>

 

That I am perturbed is your imagination. I just pointed out that the

varna system and the dharma shastras which you vouched by are

impractical in today's society. They are already replaced by Indian

Democratic Instutions. Again, I don't claim that these instituitions

are faultless. But they are more practical today.

 

>

> Warm regards,

> Chittaranjan

>

 

Regards,

Raj.

[Guest guest]

Dear friends,

> Dharma shastras prohibit Brahmins from crossing the oceans. Is it

> practical today ?

>

 

I heard a very interesting explanation for this:

Polluting water bodies is prohibited (manu smriti). As it was not

possible to cross the ocean without polluting it, crossing of the oceans

was also prohibited.

 

Best regards,

Ramachandra

[Guest guest]

Dear Shri Rishi-ji,

 

 

advaitin, "risrajlam" <rishi.lamichhane

wrote:

 

> So I assume you have some reason for your belief and

> not pre-emptively try to answer, but will wait for

> your reply first. Why do you accept sruti and smriti?

 

 

For the same reason that my hand goes to the right side of my chest

when i point to myself.

 

Thought is the water of the spring. When it is clear, it is the same

water as the subterannean stream.

 

When 'i' doesn't come in the way, that from which thought springs is

Sruti. Smriti is the reflection of thought on it. It is seen to the

extent that 'i' don't come in the way, and it is reflected upon in

various ways.

 

In the cradle is pratyabhijna. In the metropolis is amnesia. There is a

crossroad where two worlds meet, and when you speak the language of the

twilight, you are an anachronism.

 

 

Warm regards,

Chittaranjan

[Guest guest]

post 30467

 

sri chandramouliji :

 

First let me thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting that

wonderful link on Rama charita manasa ... It makes an enjoyable

reading .

 

however, may be i am wrong - i tried very hard to locate

that "chaupai" (the four lined verse) on "dhol , ganwar, shudra,

pashu , naari ..... " on page 58 - i even tried locating it on pages

30 to 60, i was unable to locate it ! pl help me!

 

now as far as translating the word 'thadan' into 'beating up' - here

is an explanation. may be 'beating up' is a crude translation but the

real meaning is, as my eight grade teacher ( whose guru was Sri

Dayananda Saraswati) , used to explain ' women , animals and shudras

( laborers or servants) should be kept in control otherwise they will

run amuck." He used to always say women should not be given too much

freedom and their job was mainly to follow the stree dharma which was

to serve her husband and his family hand and foot. She had no 'role'

to play outside of the family. well, this was in the late 50s ... you

know , women all over the world have made rapid progress and more so

in India - In fact, miss mirza has even put Indian woman on the world

Tennis map.

 

btw, in Sanskrit - tadyati does mean 'beating up' - of course,

Ramacharita manas is not in sanskrit . But you know this word 'tadan'

is a derivative of the root word'tad'

 

anyway, it is pointless to even belabor these views about gender

equality and equality between all sections of society. But , in my

honest opinion , by even defending the 'four-fold varna' system in

the 21st century , we are not promoting 'sanatana dharma ' rather we

are making it easy for christian missionaries in their

massive 'conversion' efforts in the Indian sub continent. Religion

is the 'opium' of the masses said Karl Marx . Can a hungry man chant

the Rama nama ? This explains why so many people have converted to

christianity in the poorest states of India such as Orissa, Bihar,

Kerala ETC.

 

I LEAVE YOU WITH THIS VERSE FROM ISA UPANISHAD

 

Cover everything here with the Lord.

Paradoxes about moving, not moving, near and far off .

The end of hatred, fear and sorrow.

Study of matter vs. study of scriptures and rituals.

O Sun, remove your golden disc!

 

 

YES! Banish darkness and embrace light by removing the 'golden' disc

and realize that Atma has no gender and no caste!

 

love and blessings

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.gitapress.org/books/ramayan/1318/sundar745_804.pdf

>

[Guest guest]

Dhyanasaraswati wrote:

 

********************************************************************

however, may be i am wrong - i tried very hard to locate

that "chaupai" (the four lined verse) on "dhol , ganwar, shudra,

pashu , naari ..... " on page 58 - i even tried locating it on pages

30 to 60, i was unable to locate it ! pl help me!

 

*********************************************************************

 

When i said page 52 it is the page counter number shown in pdf

viewer. It is after Doha number 58.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

advaitin, "dhyanasaraswati"

<dhyanasaraswati wrote:

>

> post 30467

>

> sri chandramouliji :

>

> First let me thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting

that

> wonderful link on Rama charita manasa ... It makes an enjoyable

> reading .

>

> however, may be i am wrong - i tried very hard to locate

> that "chaupai" (the four lined verse) on "dhol , ganwar, shudra,

> pashu , naari ..... " on page 58 - i even tried locating it on

pages

> 30 to 60, i was unable to locate it ! pl help me!

>

> now as far as translating the word 'thadan' into 'beating up' -

here

> is an explanation. may be 'beating up' is a crude translation but

the

> real meaning is, as my eight grade teacher ( whose guru was Sri

> Dayananda Saraswati) , used to explain ' women , animals and

shudras

> ( laborers or servants) should be kept in control otherwise they

will

> run amuck." He used to always say women should not be given too

much

> freedom and their job was mainly to follow the stree dharma which

was

> to serve her husband and his family hand and foot. She had

no 'role'

> to play outside of the family. well, this was in the late 50s ...

you

> know , women all over the world have made rapid progress and more

so

> in India - In fact, miss mirza has even put Indian woman on the

world

> Tennis map.

>

> btw, in Sanskrit - tadyati does mean 'beating up' - of course,

> Ramacharita manas is not in sanskrit . But you know this

word 'tadan'

> is a derivative of the root word'tad'

>

> anyway, it is pointless to even belabor these views about gender

> equality and equality between all sections of society. But , in my

> honest opinion , by even defending the 'four-fold varna' system in

> the 21st century , we are not promoting 'sanatana dharma ' rather

we

> are making it easy for christian missionaries in their

> massive 'conversion' efforts in the Indian sub continent.

Religion

> is the 'opium' of the masses said Karl Marx . Can a hungry man

chant

> the Rama nama ? This explains why so many people have converted to

> christianity in the poorest states of India such as Orissa, Bihar,

> Kerala ETC.

>

> I LEAVE YOU WITH THIS VERSE FROM ISA UPANISHAD

>

> Cover everything here with the Lord.

> Paradoxes about moving, not moving, near and far off .

> The end of hatred, fear and sorrow.

> Study of matter vs. study of scriptures and rituals.

> O Sun, remove your golden disc!

>

>

> YES! Banish darkness and embrace light by removing the 'golden'

disc

> and realize that Atma has no gender and no caste!

>

> love and blessings

http://www.gitapress.org/books/ramayan/1318/sundar745_804.pdf

> >

>

[Guest guest]

It is really very beautiful articel. Let all the people understand

what our Sanatana Dharma is. My sincere pranams to Shri Chiittaranjan

ji for writing such a beautiful article.

 

Thanks for the knowledge being shared by you,

 

Sai Devotee