Guest guest Posted March 12, 2006 Report Share Posted March 12, 2006 Namastey Bhaskar Prabhu-Ji Pardon me for the late response as I am caught up in bread earning activities that prevent me from writing a detailed response. bhaskar ji: prabhuji, I am afraid, the problem starts for me right from here!! It seems you are synonymously using avidyA & mAya and attributing AvaraNa & vikshEpa Sakti to mAya which has the independent existence. But in shankara vEdAnta mAya has been described as avidyA kalpita (conjured up by avidyA)..and this avidyA pertains to antaHkaraNa...According to my limited knowledge, avidyA is not a shakti. The word *Sakti* of brahman which has been called as *mAya* and this mAya in turn conjured up by avidyA. Kindly refer shankara's sUtra bhAshya wherein shankara explains mAya as avidyA kalpita, avidyApratyupasthApita, avidyAkruta, avidyAkArya, avidyAtmaka etc. etc. And more importantly, whenever shankara explains the nature of avdiyA he clearly states that avidyA is natural to human mind.. (naisargikOdhyAsaH -vide adhyAsa bhAshya). RR: Prabhuji, You are correct when you say that I use Maya and Avidya interchangebly. A thing which is congized by the existance of another thing should mean that both are of the same nature essentially and hence the usage is interchangble in parts of my text. If Maya as you say conjured by avidya. Then avidya becomes the necessary condition to realize Maya. Kindly note this distinction carefully. Avidya is the pre-condition to realize Maya and that does not meant Maya is non-existant as it is conjured by Avidya. bhaskar ji: Prabhuji, kindly clarify here, whether the *AvaraNa* pertains to rope itself or wrong congnition of rope?? wrong cognition of rope is due to adhyAsa which is antaHkaraNa dOsha & it has nothing to do with rope per se...suerimposition of snake on rope is due to ignorance about the true nature of rope...and this *AvaraNAtmaka* snake has nothing to do with rope...In gIta bhAshya shankara uses the word *AvaraNAtmakatvAT* & clarifies it as *tAmasa pratyaya* pertaining to the intellect or antaHkaraNa alone and definitely not said this as a *Sakti* & has the exclusive existence apart from brahman..snake cannot have independent existence apart from wrong congnition of rope prabhuji...To justify his claim shankara gives the well known example of the cataract which hinders the eyesight. RR: Prabhu-ji, Adi Shankara is only saying that the true nature of snake is rope. Maya is anirvachanya an indescrible power whose frame of reference is relative to adhyasa. When there is no more avidya there is no more entanglement in Maya. That does not reduce Maya to be non-existant. Maya produces name & forms which is experience by Jiva. Jiva is also within Maya and cognizes Maya through avidya. It is avidya that is determining factor to experience nama-rupa of Maya and hence Maya is avidya kalpita. bhaskar ji: Shankara himself has answered this question (locus of avidyA) beautifully in gIta as well as in taitirIya upanishad bhAshya....in gIta bhAshya, as said above, shankara gives the common experience of life as an illustration like a man gets cataract in his eyes etc. Due to this defect non-perception, misconception and doubting will happen with regard to forms & colours of the objects..this is due to defect of the seer's instrument i.e. indriya..When this cataract has been removed, the seer sees the forms & colours as they are!! so the defect pertains to the instrument alone and NOT to the USER of the instruments...Hence, ignorance pertains to the instrument i.e. the mind or antaHkaraNa. RR: Prabhu ji, just by closing our eyes the world does not cease to exist. The defect of Avidya when removed only shows that the world is unreal for the realized but for the unrealized the world is still real and also exists. For the Jivanmukta also the world is only unreal and not non-existant. The Jivanmukata cannot say that that the world does not exist. For if the world is non-existant so also is the Jivanmukta who exists in the world. Beware that the world is unreal or real only for the mind. When the mind becomes sublime and pure the world is unreal and when it is not then the world is real. You can call it as the dosha of the mind but the fact is that the dosha of the mind is instrumental in percieving a thing that exists even though provisionally. > RR prabhuji: > That is my understanding too prabhuji. Any experience of this world as > being separate from Brahman is a result of >Maya. bhaskar ji: As said above, prabhuji, it is not the result of mAya, it is the result of avidyA. RR: Prabhuji, which one came first chicken or egg? bhaskar ji: So prabhuji, here you are agreeing mind is root cause of nAma & rUpa superimposition on brahman right prabhuji?? Then what is the mAya/mAyashankti like AvaraNa & vikshEpa apart from nAma & rUpa superimposed by mind??? RR: Prabhuji, where is the mind without maya? And where is maya without the mind? I only said that mind is necessary to cognize nama-rupa. Salutations to Adi Shankara Sincerely, RR Brings words and photos together (easily) with PhotoMail - it's free and works with Mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2006 Report Share Posted March 13, 2006 Namastey Bhaskar Prabhu-Ji Humble praNAms Sri Rajesh Ramachander prabhuji Hare Krishna RR prabhuji: Pardon me for the late response as I am caught up in bread earning activities that prevent me from writing a detailed response. bhaskar : thats OK prabhuji..infact, my problem is also same..once in a blue moon day I'll get access to system & internet :-)) RR: Prabhuji, You are correct when you say that I use Maya and Avidya interchangebly. A thing which is congized by the existance of another thing should mean that both are of the same nature essentially and hence the usage is interchangble in parts of my text. If Maya as you say conjured by avidya. Then avidya becomes the necessary condition to realize Maya. Kindly note this distinction carefully. Avidya is the pre-condition to realize Maya and that does not meant Maya is non-existant as it is conjured by Avidya. bhaskar : I am afraid prabhuji, this is not the position of shankara...as said earlier, avidyA is not a hypothetical entity in advaita...which is necessary precondition to realize mAya...Ofcourse, you do agree with me that our striving is aimed towards realization of our svarUpa and NOT mAya...in the rope snake analogy, our efforts are aimed towards realization of rope and not the superimposed thing called snake correct prabhuji?? As has already been said in my reply to Rishi prabhuji, the beginningless (anAdi) mutual superimposition of the real Atman and the unreal not-self is itself the beginningless avidyA or basic ignorance which is common for human life..what you are telling above can find only in later commentaries on shankara's works... RR: Prabhu-ji, Adi Shankara is only saying that the true nature of snake is rope. Maya is anirvachanya an indescrible power whose frame of reference is relative to adhyasa. When there is no more avidya there is no more entanglement in Maya. That does not reduce Maya to be non-existant. Maya produces name & forms which is experience by Jiva. Jiva is also within Maya and cognizes Maya through avidya. It is avidya that is determining factor to experience nama-rupa of Maya and hence Maya is avidya kalpita. bhaskar : OK, though your observation is not so clear to me, I am failed to understand how it is going to establish your theory that *AvaraNa* pertains to external objects independent of mind!! kindly elaborate. RR: Prabhu ji, just by closing our eyes the world does not cease to exist. bhaskar : yes...but cognition part ceas to exist is it not?? RR prabhuji: The defect of Avidya when removed only shows that the world is unreal for the realized but for the unrealized the world is still real and also exists. bhaskar : Yes ofcourse...prabhuji, you agree that our ultimate aim to is realize that world is unreal & it does not have any independept existence apart from brahman is it not?? RR prabhuji: For the Jivanmukta also the world is only unreal and not non-existant. bhaskar : jnAni perceives the world with a sublated knowledge...he never ever think that it is trikAla abhAdhita satya like his own svarUpa is it not?? RR prabhuji: The Jivanmukata cannot say that that the world does not exist. bhaskar : yes, a jIvanmukta/jnAni realizes that this world does exist in one particular state & changes its colour in another state...kArikA bhAshya is an apt reference to describe the socalled world reality in the perspective of advaita prabhuji. RR prabhuji: For if the world is non-existant so also is the Jivanmukta who exists in the world. Beware that the world is unreal or real only for the mind. bhaskar : then prabhuji, pls. explain how can AvaraNa be there independent of mind?? RR prabhuji: When the mind becomes sublime and pure the world is unreal and when it is not then the world is real. You can call it as the dosha of the mind but the fact is that the dosha of the mind is instrumental in percieving a thing that exists even though provisionally. bhaskar : if that is the case, then we will have to conclude that there is snake in the rope independently existing in rope & adhyAsa is mere instrumental cause to cognize the *real* snake in rope!!?? do you agree with it prabhuji?? bhaskar ji: As said above, prabhuji, it is not the result of mAya, it is the result of avidyA. RR: Prabhuji, which one came first chicken or egg? bhaskar : when shankara himself answered this question...where is the question of egg & chicken prabhuji?? From the transactional view point there are dealings of vidyA and avidyA it is not only restricted to outerthings (laukika vyavahAra) but also to true nature of the self (shAstrIya vyavahAra). it is evident for all...this dealing of vidyA & avidyA can be called mAya which means that which is not there really but appears in vyavahAra as if it is there really is mAya (kindly refer shankara's kArikA bhAshya with regard to mAya description). In this sense, if we call avidyA as mAya figuratively there is no harm done. So, no situation like egg & chicken here..Problem comes only if you say prakruti is the material cause of avidyA and it will get vanished through knowledge etc.etc. RR: Prabhuji, where is the mind without maya? And where is maya without the mind? I only said that mind is necessary to cognize nama-rupa. bhaskar : Kindly corelate this with your earlier stand that AvaraNa is independent of mind & pertains to external things... Salutations to Adi Shankara Sincerely, RR Humble praNAms onceagain Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 Namaste Bhaskar Prabhu ji: Bhaskar ji: avidyA is not a hypothetical entity in advaita...which is necessary precondition to realize mAya... RR: Prabhu ji, Avidya is as real or unreal as Maya. Maya is the universe and is also the cause of the Antahkarana - Manas. Avidya on one hand unlike Maya is private to Jiva while Maya on the other hand is public and accessible to Jivas. The perception of nama - rupa by Jiva is not a fancy or creation of mind. These objects exist independent of the perceiving mind. Maya or world exists and is unreal only when refered with Brahman. For in essence Maya is Brahman and the nama-rupa that is percieved by Jiva exists in the mind of Ishwara. Bhaskar ji: OK, though your observation is not so clear to me, I am failed to understand how it is going to establish your theory that *AvaraNa* pertains to external objects independent of mind!! kindly elaborate. RR: Prabhuji, It is now very clear to me that we both differ on this aspect. I hold that external objects exist independent of the mind. While you seem to hold that external objects are created by mind. If jivas keep creating external objects then who makes sure that there are no contradictions in the world due to creation simultaneously by jivas. That central power must be Ishwara. In order to make sure that the creations do not contradict one another Ishwara then only gives the Jiva the illusary feeling of 'Creation'. Such illusary feeling of creation would neccessiate that maya or world exist independent of the mind. RR: Prabhu ji,just by closing our eyes the world does not cease to exist. Bhaskar ji: yes...but cognition part ceas to exist is it not?? RR: Ceasing of Cognition does not cease the world. Bhaskar ji: prabhuji, you agree that our ultimate aim to is realize that world is unreal & it does not have any independept existence apart from brahman is it not?? RR: Prabhu ji, I whole heartedly agree with you here. Bhaskar ji: jnAni perceives the world with a sublated knowledge...he never ever think that it is trikAla abhAdhita satya like his own svarUpa is it not?? RR: Yes Prabhu ji Bhaskar ji: then prabhuji, pls. explain how can AvaraNa be there independent of mind?? RR: Avarana is again Maya and as aruged above is independent of mind. RR: When the mind becomes sublime and pure the world is unreal and when it is not then the world is real. You can call it as the dosha of the mind but the fact is that the dosha of the mind is instrumental in percieving a thing that exists even though provisionally. Bhaskar ji:if that is the case, then we will have to conclude that there is snake in the rope independently existing in rope & adhyAsa is mere instrumental cause to cognize the *real* snake in rope!!?? do you agree with it prabhuji?? RR: Yes and no Prabhu ji. Snake would exist independently but is unrea as in essence the snake is the rope. RR: Prabhuji, where is the mind without maya? And where is maya without the mind? I only said that mind is necessary to cognize nama-rupa. Bhaskar ji: Kindly corelate this with your earlier stand that AvaraNa is independent of mind & pertains to external things... RR: Prabhu ji, we jivas are creations that are an outcome of his maya. We see him as the world or maya through our cognition. Being a product of maya we relate with maya through avidya. That maya which is cognized through avidya is unreal in essence. If maya is unreal when avidya ceases then it only means that avidya is also unreal but exists. Unreality of maya or avidya only means that nothing was ever created or conjured from Brahman. All this is then ajati and exists within him eternally. Salutations to Adi Shankara Sincerely, RR Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 praNAms Sri Rajesh RamaChander prabhuji Hare Krishna RR Prabhu ji, Avidya is as real or unreal as Maya. bhaskar : No prabhuji, avidyA is not anirvachanIya but mAya is...avidyA/adhyAsa is svabhAvika and anAdi says shankara ...whereas mAya like foam & bubble of the water cannot be categorized as brahman or otherwise...(tatvAnyatvAbhyAm says shankara about mAya in sUtra bhAshya) RR prabhuji: Maya is the universe and is also the cause of the Antahkarana - Manas. Avidya on one hand unlike Maya is private to Jiva while Maya on the other hand is public and accessible to Jivas. The perception of nama - rupa by Jiva is not a fancy or creation of mind. These objects exist independent of the perceiving mind. Maya or world exists and is unreal only when refered with Brahman. For in essence Maya is Brahman and the nama-rupa that is percieved by Jiva exists in the mind of Ishwara. bhaskar : It can be noted here, first of all, from the transational view point, our intellect always wants the rigorous rules & regulation of causation..Hence the statement "mAya is the cause of antaHkaraNa" Here without knowing that universe itself avidyAkruta, we seek the cause for our mind the world etc. But when you see the *anubhava*, in the dream state also everyone feels that *I am in this world, I have been born here some time ago and I'll die one day and I am an individual jIva etc. From this very notional feeling of this individuality, he sees the universe there and starts to investigate the cause of that world...At last, as you said above, he comes to the conclusion that the prakruti/mAya is the cause of this universe/antaHkaraNa etc. But shankara says in sUtra bhAshya this very notion of jIva is the product of adhyAsa!!! As mentioned above, analysation of dream state's anubhava itself would suffice to prove this fact...In dream also we do feel the time series and the causation etc. as the real things. But when the dream disappears, all the the phenomenon will be falsified including the idea of infinite time, space causation etc. What I am trying to say here is the world which is seen in the dream state, exists in its essence, i.e. the pure being. And the mind which appeared in the dream did not cognise the truth. Hence, it holds the vies that the world is real and independent of mind etc. & starts the investigation and comes to the certain conclusions just as you said above prakruti is the cause of his own mind etc. etc... prabhuji, no need to mention here, when you are doing siddhAnta nirNaya it should comply with our *anubhava* is it not?? That is a beauty of shankara's advaita..it is anubhava gamya and NOT *tarka gamya*.... Thats it from my desk prabhuji....Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts with me. Hari Hari Hari Bol!!! bhaskar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 24, 2006 Report Share Posted March 24, 2006 Namaste Bhaskar Prabhu ji: RR: Avidya is as real or unreal as Maya. Bhaskar Prabhu ji: No prabhuji, avidyA is not anirvachanIya but mAya is...avidyA/adhyAsa is svabhAvika and anAdi RR: Correct...but one is necessary for the other. If you behold one as 'unreal' the other does not 'appear' anymore too...which is that one that is independent of the other left to be claimed? Bhaskar Prabhu ji: when you see the *anubhava*, in the dream state also everyone feels that *I am in this world, I have been born here some time ago and I'll die one day and I am an individual jIva etc. From this very notional feeling of this individuality, he sees the universethere and starts to investigate the cause of that world... RR: In advaita we investigate who we are and realize that we are not different from the world we see... Bhaskar Prabhu ji: Here without knowing that universe itself avidyAkruta, we seek the cause for our mind the world etc. RR: It is easy to relegate one for another...the end is 'one' that is never non-different from the other. It is easy to go this way or that way in all other philosophies but not so in Advaita. What appears as cause is only appearance and the uncaused cause is 'One' in which everything unfolds. Bhaskar Prabhu ji: At last, as you said above, he comes to the conclusion that the prakruti/mAya is the cause of this universe/antaHkaraNa etc. But shankara says in sUtrabhAshya this very notion of jIva is the product of adhyAsa!!! RR: Prabhu ji, Adi Shankara also says that the world is 'mithya' and concludes beautifully by saying that the jiva is non-different from Brahman (jivo brahmaiva na-paraha). Can we be selective in quoting the great teacher who was Lord Shiva himself? Bhaskar Prabhu ji: What I am trying to say here is the world which is seen in the dream state, exists in its essence, i.e. the pure being. And the mind which appeared in the dream did not cognise the truth. RR: Exactly, it does not ceast to exists just because it is un-real prabhu ji Bhaskar Prabhu ji: when you are doing siddhAnta nirNaya it should comply with our *anubhava* is it not?? That is a beauty of shankara's advaita..it is anubhava gamya and NOT *tarka gamya*.... RR: Prabhu ji, anubhava is not explicable and further than tarka. Reasoning is means to the end and not the end; however the paradox is that the end which is also inclusive of that ‘thought’ in which the 'reasoning' seemingly appeared. Bhaskara Prabhu ji: Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts with me. RR: My pleasure prabhu ji, thanks for bearing a tinge of this madness. Sincerely, RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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