Guest guest Posted October 7, 2003 Report Share Posted October 7, 2003 , "Srinath Ram" <srinath_atreya wrote: || Jai Sadguru Dutta || I vividly remember an incident that happened when I was a child ( 8 years old ). I had been to ShrngEri along with my parents. When we went to Guru darShan, we saw an elderly scholar, singing Shri Saundarya lahari infront of Shree aBhinava vidyAteerTha swAmigal. All of a sudden, Shree swAmiji thundered "STOP!!!!", and said "mantras should not be sung. it is APACHARA.......". He also explained why, but I neither understood what he said nor do I remember any of his words now. Nowadays, we come across so many audios in which the GAyathri, GanEsha aTharva SheerSha, Saundarya lahari, LalithA sahasranAma and the like are sung in different tones. Each time I hear such audios, Shree swAmiji's words humm in my ears. Can any of the enlightened members kindly explain why it is forbidden to sing mantras? kind regards vishwanthan Krishnamoorthy <krishvishy> Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:51 pm Re: Singing Mantras I believe (and I can be wrong) that stotras/shlokas/stuti's can be set to music. Vedas should not be sung to a tune other than in Sama nor should it be accompanied by instruments. Mantras, the pronounciation and intonation has to be learnt from a Guru (Ideally even if your Guru is wrong you should still follow it, alternatively if you feel your Guru is wrong, this is another subject) LS is both a stotra and a mantra sastra, hence it can be set to music, however while performing Havan or Archana it is a mantra and the rules for mantra apply Gayatri mantra, this is interesting as while used for meditation should not be chanted aloud (there are different merits based on how the mantra is meditated upon and wethere it is done silently etc.. with the maximum potential to silent japa) but however all vedic riks/yajus should be chanted aloud! it is an apachara to recite the vedas silently. While chanting the Arunaprasnam in the Taiterya Aranyaka or the Mahanarayanopanishad the Gayatri mantra is uttered in a subdued voice. (Gayatri mantra = Savitir in the above paragraph) However in all cases, the chandas if applicable, has to be adhered to or else the meaning changes regards Vishwanathan "M. S. Ravisankar" <ravi@a...> Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:09 am RE: Singing Mantras There are many aspects that come into play in this matter. 1) With regard to shruti, there is an interesting story which explains this. Please see the following link for details. Things such a varNa, svara, mAtra, balam, sAma and santana are the keys here and it is discussed in siixaavalli. http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part6/chap9.htm 2) Take a mantra, the meaning of that mantra could change by a wrong split or incorrect pronunciation and so on. For instance, advaitins "sa AtmA tattvamasi" get distorted to dvaitin's " sa AtmA atattvamasi" -- thus creating a huge difference. 3) Above example is an intentional distortion. But with singing, one will introduce splits where there is none due to the demands of raaga etc. For example, vidyaa-avidyaa-svaruupiNi, can become vidyaaaaa [pause] vidyaaaa svaruupiNi. That could change the meaning. I can not recollect examples now, but I have noticed such wrong breaks in some carnatic renderings. In music the concern is often being faithful to the rAga than to the text and even the bhAva. 4) For many tamil people like me, the language will also put another obstacle -- for instance, aakaala mR^ityu haraNam can become aakaala mR^ityu karaNam!!! -- changing a blessing to curse due to lack of all the varNa-s. Hence, singing a mantra could introduce grave errors. Learning from an audio recording, has the flaw of the not being corrected while reproducing it. A knowledgeable teacher who can spend ***one-on-one*** time with a student is a must to correct all these errors. Other option is to simply talk to God whenever one can in the language one understands. What God is a God if She cannot answer you when you speak honestly to HER and instead expect that you utter a mumbo jumbo which you do not understand? That is why kaaLikaa puraaNa says that praying to God with one's own words is better than shruti! My 2c. Ravi ganapathy = = vijaya <srividya101> Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:07 pm RE: Singing Mantras Dear Sri Ravi, well said and for all the reasons given by you HH Mahaperiaval of Kaanchi has prohibited singing both Soundarya LahAri and Lalitha sahasranama specifically. chanting of Vedas should also not have any accompaniments and the chanter should also not show any action like shaking the head or moving the hands Vinesh <dakinic_monk> Sat Aug 2, 2003 6:09 pm RE: Singing Mantras Most mantras have ChandAnsI and the whole purpose for that is that it be sung, a lot of vidyas viz. Kalika Mantra raja and Tara mantra raja are sung. Mantras are sung and generally all mantras to mAtangini are sung. Ofcourse with a lot of mantras this free singing is not something that is recommended but I doubt the effects be that malefic. Sundari Lahiri has been always to my knowledge a set of mantras that was sung. When I mean sing, I mean the usage of rAga and change in swara thus making the mantra pleasing to recite, hear and also making it sound more harmonious. Take the dhUmra, kurcha, kAma, kAmakala, shastra and samhArin/mrityuna sAnghArini bijas these are bijas that require a set swara and rAga. These rules that mantras are not to be sung are absurd and ridiculous. Mantras are prayers devI the mother of mothers. She who is said to love songs, singing. According to most Tantras the way to please devI kalika is to sing a heartfelt song/mantra to her. The word kavItra (poetic clothing) is also a synonym for kAdi vidya. According the a lot of sources mother SundarI is one who is pleased by singing of mantras (strong reference to vedic mantra/sukta known as the durga sukta). Muthiah <mmaindan> Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:31 am RE: Singing Mantras Vanakkam i wonder how far my comment is relevant,but it should sound interesting. Mantras are bound to give adverse vibrations when they are pronounced wrong is ofcourse a known fact.Recently,i was conversing with the no 1 Poet of Tamilnadu,who is very close to me. He haswritten a literature piece in the dilect of his native and the slang ,when coming to prose was so difficult for others to read and understand,in certain areas. Pointing this out, he said that he is intending to render the whole work in his own voice for others to know the proper pronounciation.He is basically an ethist.I slowly giggled.he asked for the reason and i said,this is precisely why the brahmins prevented others from reading Vedas and a big havoc was made on it.Now,even in the same language,understanding the slang needs nativity. he couldnt debate as he knows i am a non-brhamin and no vested interests are behind "s_seshagiri" <s_seshagiri> Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:12 pm Re: Singing Mantras Namaste, I am not so sure of this. Perhaps you are correct, but not from what I have heard/read. Please see http://www.kamakoti.org/souv/5-111.html Besides, I personally know one mami in T.Nagar Madras who teaches the SL in a garland of 100 ragas. She told me how her guru was very much appreciated when she first presented it to Mahaperiaval and he specifically instructed her to spread the same to as many people as possible. Also, on a number of occassions, MSS has prefaced her rendering of kritis with verses from the SL. In my opinion, earlier explanation provided by Mr. Vishwanthan Krishnamoorthy as "LS is both a stotra and a mantra sastra, hence it can be set to music, however while performing Havan or Archana it is a mantra and the rules for mantra apply*" is the right way to understand this. Surely I accept we cannot apply the stotra argument and sing it *while treating it as a mantra*. Regards. "M. S. Ravisankar" <ravi@a...> Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:22 pm RE: Re: Singing Mantras Sridhar, The question is, does it cease to be a mantra when you treat it as a stotra? I think the answer is no. Because, the requirement of initiation to shriividya stands whether you sing it as a stotra or take a name treat it as a mantra. That is my understanding. I also think it is unfair to extend the rules that are applied to shruti to all the other works. Typically, when people say mantra, it is veda mantra. And as Vinesh said, the line between what is singing and what is not, is also questionable. Hence, in my opinion it should be ok to set works such as Saundaryalahari and LS to music provided a) meaning is not distorted b) syllables are not mangled and c) the correct pronunciation is retained. Primarily, the integrity of the text should not be sacrificed for the sake of music. One who sets it to music should understand the text quite well before embarking on it. This is just my opinion. I have to be honest here, I prefer M.S.Sheela's brilliant musical rendering of LS even over the recitation of Sri jayendrasarasvati swamigaL. Music provides a structure to remember the text easily. In fact, Sheela is pretty accurate in pronunciation and rendering, she is well known for this. And since the aacharya says its from memory, (and if I remember correctly :-)) ), Sri aacharya makes errors in 1 or 2 places. Ravi av krshnan <avkrshnan> Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:29 pm RE: Re: Singing Mantras respected sri. ravi, i think there is too much confusion on this aspect unnecessarily. LS, soundarya lahari ets are stotras, and do contain mantra beejas, and their couplets could be used as mantras for certain wish-fulfilments. as a matter of fact, my mother and most ladies recite s/lahari set to different raagas. maybe, u take such liberties with LS also. also , LT mantras: "kakaara roopaayai kalyyanyaai----- " " etc may render to a fine shruthi and ragas. however, we must differentiate these from vedic sookthams like durga sooktham, shree sooktham, medha sooktham, the rudram-chamakam, purusha sooktham,punyaaha vachanam ------- et al. though cassettes are galore on these sukthams set to instuments and ragas, i think it is not very fair on our rishis and gurus and ouselves to get into those modes of reciting these divine outpourings. veda sukthams must be got initiated from a guru and chanted to the set rhythm. it is not for nothing that the rishies have transfereed them over millennia merely by word of mouth. and pray, what is the need to render the sookthas other than thro set renditions? if one is good in music, one colud learn some keerthanams of shyama sastrikal, or deekshitar or tyagayya, swati tirunaal or any of hundreds of vernacular vaggeyakaaras, and sing them to heart's content. yes, it should be correct to say that during archanas and homas, the LS couplets are mantras,and can be sung for regular recitations. but i think we should leave the sookthas alone. i am an IGNORAMUS in fromt of blessed scholars in this group. so please forgive me if i am presumptous. respectfully yours, a.v.krshnan. Sri Vinesh wrote According the a lot of sources mother SundarI is one who is pleased by singing of mantras (strong reference to vedic mantra/sukta known as the durga sukta). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 28, 2003 Report Share Posted November 28, 2003 Dear Srinath Ramji Jaya Guru Dev Guru Dev's Version is Quote....Anybody (Guru's) give Mantras a Sat Guru Gives you Laya (Tune?). Thats what I do....Unquote Jaya Guru Dev bishnu - Srinath Ram <srinath_atreya <> Wednesday, October 08, 2003 1:16 AM Singing Mantras - 1 > , "Srinath Ram" <srinath_atreya > wrote: > || Jai Sadguru Dutta || > > > I vividly remember an incident that happened when I was a child ( 8 > years old ). I had been to ShrngEri along with my parents. When we > went to Guru darShan, we saw an elderly scholar, singing Shri > Saundarya lahari infront of Shree aBhinava vidyAteerTha swAmigal. > All of a sudden, Shree swAmiji thundered "STOP!!!!", and > said "mantras should not be sung. it is APACHARA.......". He also > explained why, but I neither understood what he said nor do I > remember any of his words now. > > Nowadays, we come across so many audios in which the GAyathri, > GanEsha aTharva SheerSha, Saundarya lahari, LalithA sahasranAma and > the like are sung in different tones. Each time I hear such audios, > Shree swAmiji's words humm in my ears. > > Can any of the enlightened members kindly explain why it is forbidden > to sing mantras? > > kind regards > > > vishwanthan Krishnamoorthy <krishvishy> > Tue Jul 29, 2003 8:51 pm > Re: Singing Mantras > > I believe (and I can be wrong) that > stotras/shlokas/stuti's can be set to music. > > Vedas should not be sung to a tune other than in Sama > nor should it be accompanied by instruments. > > Mantras, the pronounciation and intonation has to be > learnt from a Guru (Ideally even if your Guru is wrong > you should still follow it, alternatively if you feel > your Guru is wrong, this is another subject) > > LS is both a stotra and a mantra sastra, hence it can > be set to music, however while performing Havan or > Archana it is a mantra and the rules for mantra apply > > Gayatri mantra, this is interesting as while used for > meditation should not be chanted aloud (there are > different merits based on how the mantra is meditated > upon and wethere it is done silently etc.. with the > maximum potential to silent japa) but however all > vedic riks/yajus should be chanted aloud! it is an > apachara to recite the vedas silently. > > While chanting the Arunaprasnam in the Taiterya > Aranyaka or the Mahanarayanopanishad the Gayatri > mantra is uttered in a subdued voice. > (Gayatri mantra = Savitir in the above paragraph) > > However in all cases, the chandas if applicable, has > to be adhered to or else the meaning changes > > regards > Vishwanathan > > > "M. S. Ravisankar" <ravi@a...> > Wed Jul 30, 2003 2:09 am > RE: Singing Mantras > There are many aspects that come into play in this matter. > > 1) With regard to shruti, there is an interesting story which explains > this. Please see the following link for details. Things such a varNa, > svara, > mAtra, balam, sAma and santana are the keys here and it is discussed > in > siixaavalli. > > http://www.kamakoti.org/hindudharma/part6/chap9.htm > > 2) Take a mantra, the meaning of that mantra could change by a wrong > split > or incorrect pronunciation and so on. For instance, advaitins "sa AtmA > tattvamasi" get distorted to dvaitin's " sa AtmA atattvamasi" -- thus > creating a huge difference. > > 3) Above example is an intentional distortion. But with singing, one > will > introduce splits where there is none due to the demands of raaga etc. > For > example, vidyaa-avidyaa-svaruupiNi, can become vidyaaaaa [pause] > vidyaaaa > svaruupiNi. That could change the meaning. I can not recollect > examples > now, but I have noticed such wrong breaks in some carnatic > renderings. In > music the concern is often being faithful to the rAga than to the > text and > even the bhAva. > > 4) For many tamil people like me, the language will also put another > obstacle -- for instance, aakaala mR^ityu haraNam can become aakaala > mR^ityu > karaNam!!! -- changing a blessing to curse due to lack of all the > varNa-s. > > Hence, singing a mantra could introduce grave errors. Learning from an > audio recording, has the flaw of the not being corrected while > reproducing > it. A knowledgeable teacher who can spend ***one-on-one*** time with a > student is a must to correct all these errors. Other option is to > simply > talk to God whenever one can in the language one understands. What > God is a > God if She cannot answer you when you speak honestly to HER and > instead > expect that you utter a mumbo jumbo which you do not understand? That > is why > kaaLikaa puraaNa says that praying to God with one's own words is > better > than shruti! > > My 2c. > > Ravi > > ganapathy = = vijaya <srividya101> > Wed Jul 30, 2003 12:07 pm > RE: Singing Mantras > > Dear Sri Ravi, > > well said and for all the reasons given by you HH Mahaperiaval of > Kaanchi has > prohibited singing both Soundarya LahAri and Lalitha sahasranama > specifically. > chanting of Vedas should also not have any accompaniments and the > chanter > should also not show any action like shaking the head or moving the > hands > > Vinesh <dakinic_monk> > Sat Aug 2, 2003 6:09 pm > RE: Singing Mantras > > Most mantras have ChandAnsI and the whole purpose for that is that it > be > sung, a lot of vidyas viz. Kalika Mantra raja and Tara mantra raja are > sung. Mantras are sung and generally all mantras to mAtangini are > sung. > Ofcourse with a lot of mantras this free singing is not something that > is recommended but I doubt the effects be that malefic. Sundari Lahiri > has been always to my knowledge a set of mantras that was sung. > > When I mean sing, I mean the usage of rAga and change in swara thus > making the mantra pleasing to recite, hear and also making it sound > more > harmonious. Take the dhUmra, kurcha, kAma, kAmakala, shastra and > samhArin/mrityuna sAnghArini bijas these are bijas that require a set > swara and rAga. These rules that mantras are not to be sung are absurd > and ridiculous. Mantras are prayers devI the mother of mothers. She > who > is said to love songs, singing. According to most Tantras the way to > please devI kalika is to sing a heartfelt song/mantra to her. The word > kavItra (poetic clothing) is also a synonym for kAdi vidya. > > According the a lot of sources mother SundarI is one who is pleased by > singing of mantras (strong reference to vedic mantra/sukta known as > the > durga sukta). > > > Muthiah <mmaindan> > Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:31 am > RE: Singing Mantras > Vanakkam > i wonder how far my comment is relevant,but it should sound > interesting. > Mantras are bound to give adverse vibrations when they are pronounced > wrong is > ofcourse a known fact.Recently,i was conversing with the no 1 Poet of > Tamilnadu,who is very close to me. He haswritten a literature piece > in the > dilect of his native and the slang ,when coming to prose was so > difficult for > others to read and understand,in certain areas. > Pointing this out, he said that he is intending to render the whole > work in his > own voice for others to know the proper pronounciation.He is > basically an > ethist.I slowly giggled.he asked for the reason and i said,this is > precisely > why the brahmins prevented others from reading Vedas and a big havoc > was made > on it.Now,even in the same language,understanding the slang needs > nativity. > he couldnt debate as he knows i am a > non-brhamin and no vested interests are behind > > > > > "s_seshagiri" <s_seshagiri> > Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:12 pm > Re: Singing Mantras > Namaste, > > I am not so sure of this. Perhaps you are correct, > but not from what I have heard/read. Please see > > http://www.kamakoti.org/souv/5-111.html > > Besides, I personally know one mami in T.Nagar > Madras who teaches the SL in a garland of 100 > ragas. She told me how her guru was very much > appreciated when she first presented it to > Mahaperiaval and he specifically instructed > her to spread the same to as many people as > possible. Also, on a number of occassions, MSS > has prefaced her rendering of kritis with verses > from the SL. > > In my opinion, earlier explanation provided by > Mr. Vishwanthan Krishnamoorthy as "LS is both a > stotra and a mantra sastra, hence it can be set to > music, however while performing Havan or > Archana it is a mantra and the rules for mantra > apply*" is the right way to understand this. > Surely I accept we cannot apply the stotra > argument and sing it *while treating it as a > mantra*. > > Regards. > > "M. S. Ravisankar" <ravi@a...> > Thu Jul 31, 2003 8:22 pm > RE: Re: Singing Mantras > Sridhar, > > The question is, does it cease to be a mantra when you treat it as a > stotra? > I think the answer is no. Because, the requirement of initiation to > shriividya stands whether you sing it as a stotra or take a name > treat it as > a mantra. That is my understanding. > > I also think it is unfair to extend the rules that are applied to > shruti to > all the other works. Typically, when people say mantra, it is veda > mantra. > And as Vinesh said, the line between what is singing and what is not, > is > also questionable. > > Hence, in my opinion it should be ok to set works such as > Saundaryalahari > and LS to music provided a) meaning is not distorted b) syllables are > not > mangled and c) the correct pronunciation is retained. Primarily, the > integrity of the text should not be sacrificed for the sake of music. > One > who sets it to music should understand the text quite well before > embarking > on it. > > This is just my opinion. I have to be honest here, I prefer > M.S.Sheela's > brilliant musical rendering of LS even over the recitation of Sri > jayendrasarasvati swamigaL. Music provides a structure to remember > the text > easily. In fact, Sheela is pretty accurate in pronunciation and > rendering, > she is well known for this. And since the aacharya says its from > memory, > (and if I remember correctly :-)) ), Sri aacharya makes errors in 1 > or 2 > places. > > > Ravi > > av krshnan <avkrshnan> > Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:29 pm > RE: Re: Singing Mantras > > respected sri. ravi, > i think there is too much > confusion on this aspect unnecessarily. > LS, soundarya lahari ets are stotras, and do > contain mantra beejas, and their couplets could be > used as mantras for certain wish-fulfilments. > as a matter of fact, my mother and most ladies > recite s/lahari set to different raagas. > maybe, u take such liberties with LS also. > also , LT mantras: "kakaara roopaayai > kalyyanyaai----- " > " etc may render to a fine shruthi and ragas. > however, we must differentiate these from > vedic sookthams like durga sooktham, shree sooktham, > medha sooktham, the rudram-chamakam, purusha > sooktham,punyaaha vachanam ------- et al. > though cassettes are galore on these > sukthams set to instuments and ragas, i think it is > not very fair on our rishis and gurus and ouselves to > get into those modes of reciting these divine > outpourings. > veda sukthams must be got initiated from a > guru and chanted to the set rhythm. it is not for > nothing that the rishies have transfereed them over > millennia merely by word of mouth. > and pray, what is the need to render the > sookthas other than thro set renditions? > if one is good in music, one colud learn > some keerthanams of shyama sastrikal, or deekshitar or > tyagayya, swati tirunaal or any of hundreds of > vernacular vaggeyakaaras, and sing them to heart's > content. > yes, it should be correct to say that during > archanas and homas, the LS couplets are mantras,and > can be sung for regular recitations. > but i think we should leave the sookthas > alone. > i am an IGNORAMUS in fromt of blessed > scholars in this group. so please forgive me if i am > presumptous. > respectfully yours, a.v.krshnan. > > > > Sri Vinesh wrote > > > > According the a lot of sources mother SundarI is one who is pleased by > singing of mantras (strong reference to vedic mantra/sukta known as > the > durga sukta). Jay Gurudev > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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