Singing Mantras - 2

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ganapathy = = vijaya <srividya101>

Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:21 pm

Why Vedas Cannot be sung

 

 

Sub : Why Vedic Mantras should not be Sung

 

 

I do not know under what authority sri Vineshji has made the aforesaid

observation ……...

 

 

I have extracted this information from the Voice Of the Guru on the

 

" HINDU DHARMA " HH Pujya SRI SRI Mahaperiayavaal. – for

the benefit

of members

and most of us must be familiar with what our Jagad Guru has said.

 

 

Our forefathers devised a number of methods to preserve the unwritten

Vedas in

their original form, to safeguard their tonal and verbal purity. they

laid down

rules to make sure that not a syllable was changed in chanting.

 

They fixed the time taken to enunciate each syllable of a word and

called this

unit of time – matras. How we must regulate our breathing to

produce

the

desired vibration in a particular part of our body so that the sound

of the

syllable enunciated is produced in its pure form which is determined

in the

vedanga called siksa. Here the even the similarities and differences

between

the swaras of music and of the Vedas are dealt with. So too those

between the

sound voiced by birds and animals on the one hand and vedic swaras on

the

other. With such a detail the right way is shown for the intonation

of vedic

mantras.

 

 

 

Further to ensure that the words and syllables are not altered to the

SLIGHTESET EXTENT a method has been prescribed as to how the mantras

are strung

together. The patterns are – vakya – pada – karma –

jata – mala –

sikha – rekha

– dhvaja – danda – ratha – Ghana.

 

 

 

For brevity I am not writing the rules of chanting karma, jata etc..

which is a

particular permutation and combination of the vedic mantras.

 

 

 

This has been done to protect the sound of our Vedas against change

and

distortion – tonal and verbal purity for ALL THE TIME TO COME .

 

 

 

We know from scientific studies that sound can create, sustain and

destroy.

 

 

 

This fact must have been known to our maharishies who were mantra

drishtas –

acquiring these mantras from the cosmos ,with the power of

concentration

acquired through austerities.

 

 

 

Vedic chanting is not the same as singing as it is a MANTRA YOGA

– the

vibration in each nadi creates certain feelings or urges in the

consciousness

as would bring atmic well being not only to the person reciting but

to the

society at large. That is the reason that Vedas should be chanted

loudly and

not meditated upon.

 

 

 

>From the above explanation of maha maha periayval Vedas cannot be set

to a tune

as it is in a raga with musical accompaniments but recited only

according to

the tones appropriately prescribed.

 

 

 

There must be a certain poise about the man who chants the Vedas and

even

shaking a head as in music recitals means the nadi vibrations get

affected.

 

 

 

Considering that our maharishies took so much care to make sure that

the sound

of Vedas did not undergo the slightest change in thousands of years ,

it would

be Total ignorance if one observes that the Vedas can be sung.

 

 

Ganapathy --- Vijaya

 

" Jai Bhavani " - - - - " Jai Sri Lalitha Maha Maha Tripura Sundari "

 

" Sarvam Shakti Mayam Jagath "

 

"Vinesh " <dakinic_monk>

Thu Jul 31, 2003 3:45 pm

RE: Why Vedas Cannot be sung

 

Dear Ganapathiji,

 

When I say sung I don't mean some ricky martin or frank Sinatra thing,

Vedas have swara and raga. For instance jAtavedase the A is pulled up

and the e is a lower swara. I don't know about you but I would

classify

that as singing.

 

My source on this is the sarvasAmrAja dAyaka kAli sahashrAnama stotra,

SundarI lahiri and LS (some stuff to do with devi being pleased by

singing music), mAtangi puran and kAlika puran also I think speak of

singing pleasing devI.

 

Generally, I do what I do and I personally get a lot of good results

and

but this I don't mean some stupid feeling of energy, but actual

physical

results. So I basically stay with what is helpful, besides if devI

guides a person why give a damn about people, rules and books!

 

Bhakthi and love saves all and mind you, love for the mother is

greater

then all mantras since basically that very love can make you

invincible

to any malefic effect. Mind you the bija hrIm is based on the durga

sUkta and saying so in mantras like:

 

hrAm hrIm hrooM hraiM hrauM hrAH dakshine kAlike hUM phaT this is

basically a mantra which sung and it comprises of the hrIM strands.

Besides a lot of these rules are manmade and one should see their true

practical or dynamic nature. If you call devi as Shakthi then yeah if

you say something wrong you are gone however call her as mother then

what do you get, a child makes mistakes but the mother being the

compassionate fountain of love she forgives.

 

Note that kulArnava tantra continually states love only saves, many

mantras incl. all those of the CHinnamasta paddhati and kurukulla

paddhati require mantras to be sung. You have to know and ask do these

rules really matter, because a lot of these are man made convetions. I

have personally done stuff that even scares me at times (no vAmachara

or

krura sadhana) and basically I am still standing so this simply means

a

lot of these rules (not this specific one but ones of this genre) are

basically not necessary. At one point people used to have similar

inhibitions to hari om, note that now it is a commonly used mantra.

 

 

 

"Satish Arigela" <satisharigela>

Thu Jul 31, 2003 11:32 pm

Re: Singing Mantras

, Vinesh <dakinic_monk> wrote:

 

> swara and rAga. These rules that mantras are not to be sung are

>absurd

> and ridiculous. Mantras are prayers devI the mother of mothers.

>She who

> is said to love songs, singing. According to most Tantras the way

>to

> please devI kalika is to sing a heartfelt song/mantra to her.

 

 

Mantra is not the same thing as a prayer. The following is what

Arthur Avalon has to say regarding the difference between a mantra

and a prayer. Source: The Garland of Letters. Chapter 28.

 

"A mantra again is not the same thing as prayer or self dedication

(Atma nivedana).Prayer is conveyed in what words the worshipper

chooses and bears its menaing on its face. It is only ignorance of

Sastrik principles (See "Principles of Tantra" as to what precedes

and follows) which supposes that mantra is merely the name for the

words in which one expresses what one has to say to the divinity.If

it were, the sadhaka might choose his own language without recourse

to the eternal and determined sounds of Sastra."

 

 

> The >word

> kavItra (poetic clothing) is also a synonym for kAdi vidya.

 

If possible can you please write more about this?

 

rgds

 

 

 

Muthiah <mmaindan>

Fri Aug 1, 2003 9:47 am

Re: Re: Singing Mantras

 

Few of our learned are slightly confused about saastra

and thothra..is my observation.Thothra is an outbirst of

outpouring devotion and it has no limitations or need for

sruthy.Arunagirinadhar says that Lord Muruga relishes

even songs of devils.`PAANIGAL KOTTUM PEIGAL PIDATRUM

PAADALAI MECHUM KADHIRVELA'.It cannot be the same with

manthras based on sastras as the sound manifests itself

as the divine force.So,pronounciation,sruthi are all

important.

 

>Satish Arigela <satisharigela> wrote

>

>Mantra is not the same thing as a prayer. The following is what

>Arthur Avalon has to say regarding the difference between a mantra

>and a prayer. Source: The Garland of Letters. Chapter 28.

 

"Vinesh " <dakinic_monk>

Fri Aug 1, 2003 6:17 am

RE: Re: Singing Mantras

 

 

>> kavItra (poetic clothing) is also a synonym for kAdi vidya.

 

> If possible can you please write more about this?

 

Devi is the poetic clothing, this is in reference to the oral tantric

tradition. Tantras were never meant to be revealed to more then one

fellow (guru to shishyA, the one he sees worthy). But even then the

tantrA was concealed in a poetic way. Devi conceals the true nature

of tantra from people who can either harm themselves or others since

she does not want her children suffering a destructive fate such as

that.

 

This leads me to the point of kavItra kavi meaning poet or poetic and

Itra meaning article of clothing or some towel like thing. She is the

concealing factor of poetry or the resonating song of the param atma.

 

BTW I am not to fond of quoting books, what I know is from devI, guru

or

pratical trial and error (basically devI lOL) and I have seen that

this

is applicable to many as a result I (thanks to mantra tantra group

members) realised that there is a universal way to reach devi. I cant

help it but start blurting out her mantra and sometimes the pleasure

is

so great at that point the mantra doesn't come out properly. This all

because of singing the vidyas of the beloved mother. I suggest one try

this before condemning it.

 

K Anand <carex@v...>

Fri Aug 1, 2003 3:12 pm

Singing Mantras

Dear Mr Vinesh

 

I think u are confusing chanting with singing. Mantras

are always chanted, not sung. They are chanted according

to the rules governed by the seer rishi (like what chandas

etc.). Strotras can be sung, but mantras, whether vedic

or tantric should always be chanted. More so in the case

of vedic mantras.

 

And since u make too much refrence to Durga Suktam, it

forms part of Yajur veda - Taittiriya upanishad. It should

never be set to tune and should always be chanted after

doing adhyayanam of the same from a vedic scholar.

 

av krshnan <avkrshnan>

Sat Aug 2, 2003 3:29 pm

RE: Re: Singing Mantras

 

respected sri. ravi,

i think there is too much

confusion on this aspect unnecessarily.

LS, soundarya lahari ets are stotras, and do

contain mantra beejas, and their couplets could be

used as mantras for certain wish-fulfilments.

as a matter of fact, my mother and most ladies

recite s/lahari set to different raagas.

maybe, u take such liberties with LS also.

also , LT mantras: "kakaara roopaayai

kalyyanyaai----- "

" etc may render to a fine shruthi and ragas.

however, we must differentiate these from

vedic sookthams like durga sooktham, shree sooktham,

medha sooktham, the rudram-chamakam, purusha

sooktham,punyaaha vachanam ------- et al.

though cassettes are galore on these

sukthams set to instuments and ragas, i think it is

not very fair on our rishis and gurus and ouselves to

get into those modes of reciting these divine

outpourings.

veda sukthams must be got initiated from a

guru and chanted to the set rhythm. it is not for

nothing that the rishies have transfereed them over

millennia merely by word of mouth.

and pray, what is the need to render the

sookthas other than thro set renditions?

if one is good in music, one colud learn

some keerthanams of shyama sastrikal, or deekshitar or

tyagayya, swati tirunaal or any of hundreds of

vernacular vaggeyakaaras, and sing them to heart's

content.

yes, it should be correct to say that during

archanas and homas, the LS couplets are mantras,and

can be sung for regular recitations.

but i think we should leave the sookthas

alone.

i am an IGNORAMUS in fromt of blessed

scholars in this group. so please forgive me if i am

presumptous.

respectfully yours, a.v.krshnan.

 

 

 

"patrick delaney" <drdee@a...>

Sat Aug 2, 2003 8:34 pm

Re: Why Vedas Cannot be sung

 

my understanding was that sanskrit originally had a tone based

accent -- apparently all indoeuropean languages did.

but later, for some reason, sanskrit was pronounced with a stress or

ictus type accent only. is this true?

does anyone know any written references discussing these terms:vakya

–

pada – karma – jata – mala – sikha – rekha –

dhvaja – danda – ratha –

Ghana.

 

patrick

 

, ganapathy = = vijaya

<srividya101> wrote:

>

> Sri Vinesh wrote

>

>

>

> According the a lot of sources mother SundarI is one who is pleased

by

> singing of mantras (strong reference to vedic mantra/sukta known as

the

> durga sukta)……..