to message "INTELLIGENCE?"

April 10, 2004

Dear Damanakrsnadas,

Jai Guru Dev! Hare Krsna!

I don't fully understand the motive of your message here since its not addressed

to

anyone in particular and is not an answer to anyone's message. It looks like you

happened to pass by and saw this list and decided everyone's into material and

petty

sadhana's (thus unintelligent) and you decided to post a message of exceptional

intellingence. That's what they teach in ISKCON!

Well my dear, going back to GOD Head as they put it, and striving towards the

spiritual contact is certainly intelligence. But then, there are two kinds of

intelligence.

One is your spiritual life towards which you should constantly strive, another

is the

practical intelligence - how to live in this world. Both are important and

necessary!

While dealing with the wordly problems and still make effort in your spiritual

endeavours. This is intelligence. Krsna (as people in the west write the name)

or

Krishna as we in India write it, was a great example of this. So was Arjuna who

didn't

neglect any aspect of life. He was not sitting at one place and chanting 'Hare

Krisna'

and spending life in eating and serving prasad. He was a karma yogi and a sadhak

of

highest caliber.

Since you are still living in this material world, you are bound to have

problems. And

you cannot be successful in your spiritual endeavours with these problems

because

your attention and energy will go towards them again and again. Can you chant

your

rounds if your body is severly aching and enemies sitting outside your house to

beat

you up? Can you chant your rounds if you don't have enough to eat? Or if your

wife is

fighting with you all the time? Or if your kids get lost somewhere? Of course

you

would start praying for help! But this is not what gets you back!

Don't you become happy when you get success in your material life? Didn't people

at

the time of Krsna did the same? Is all this vain?? A human, as long as he is

alive, must

strive for exellence for him and his near ones (if not for everyone). Certainly

you

cannot unsee life's problems. Didn't Krsna earn wealth? He was a King! Didn't

Prabhupada earn wealth when he went around the world 17 times in one year? As he

said to a journalist in the States who asked why he travelled in a Rolce Royce,

he said

Krsna had a more expensive chariot and that he could spend all the world's

wealth for

his organization!

Arjuna and all others were Kings. Though they had to live in forests at times.

All of

them played politics in their lives and were successful as politicians,

soldiers, and

grahasthas besides being spiritually uplifted ones. To have wealth and live

detached

from it should be the ideal as said by Gurudev!

To say only going back to Godhead is the only intelligent activity without being

able

to solve worldly problems and duties is foolish! You cannot go back to Godhead

without first getting out of these problems. You point towards the highest goal

without having the knowhow how to reach even the near by goals here and now! You

talked about ants. listen to this: when an ant wants to reach the top of a tree

it has to

first crawl to the tree root and then the trunk and then the branches. It cannot

jump

straight to the top! Can you?

I agree problems don't end. But severe problems

are hurdles to spiritual progress. Our ancient rishis were rich, and strong. And

this is

because they they had devised many ways to deal with and solve these hurdles.

They

could concentrate on God more. What you call serving God is high sadhna. When no

matter what you do, you devote it to the lord. That's what the message in

BhagwadGita says. But when a certain need arises you should also be able to get

help

from spiritual sources. When Arjuna had to fight the Mahabharata Yudha, Krsna

said

to him go and do Bhagwati Sadhna! Unles you do it you will not be able to have

power

to win. Then he made him do Pashupatastra Sadhna to please Lord Shiva and obtain

the divine Pashupatastra. And also he asked Arjuna to establish Lord Hanuman on

his

flag to ensure complete victory. These Sadhanas were not just spiritual but had

a

material motive too. Krsna himself kept Shivratri fasts and did Shivratri

sadhana. So

did Lord Ramachandra in order to conquer Ravana! He had to free his wife Sita

devi

and establish Ramrajya. He had to do it in order to solve the problems. Did you

read

Shiv Gita? You should get yourself a copy from Khemraj Publishers. Reading only

Iskcon literature that has replaced all yog, sadhna, meditation and everything

with

just one word "krsna conciousness' is not enough! In order to reach this Krsna

consciousness, you need the tools - sadhnas, meditation, specific mantras etc.

and of

course the right way to practice these mantras (not just chant without any

knowledge

of pranayam breath control, bandh mudras asan, disha) All this is important!

They

were important then, they are important now. You cannot go back to Godhead

without

knowing the way, without knowing the hurdles on this way and without getting rid

of

them.

Reason why I'm writing a more expressive letter is I know you are from Gaudiya

Sampraday that was started by Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu about 500 years back.

Iskcon, a part of it was started by Srila Prabhupada in New York in the 70s.

I myself closely know many Iskon leaders (Indian and western). But there are

certain

issues that I don't agree with that they preach to the westerners. That's one of

the

reasons why Srila Prabhupada was not able to preach in India, because he

couldn't

convince everyone on these issues. Westerners on the other hand knew nothing.

These issues are:

Shiva is a demigod. He is not supreme God and is lower than God himself

and only people with materialistic mind pray to him. (But he is prevedic God of

Gods

and has been prayed by Krsna and Rama too)

There is no use praying to demigods or godesses. Iskon preaches this to all

westerners.

They don't respect any other God.

They don't respect any other mantra except Hare Krsna mantra.

(I was made to realize this by a number of Iskcon disciples,

though if some of you think otherwise, then please excuse me)

They don't respect the path of Yoga (though many Iskon leaders privately

take yoga and pranayam

lessons)

Prabhupada wrote in nectar of devotion: Only materialistic minded yogis

concentrate

their attention on chakras - muladhar chakra is place between anus, swadhisthan

and

manipur chakra is your intestines etc. Interestingly, Srila Prabhupada

instructed his

desciples not to read anyother literature except one with his commentary.

Prabhupada and his disciples claim themselves separate from Hinduism and claim

to

preach pure Vedic culture to foreigners. But when they need support or funds

they say

we are part of Hinduism.

Anouncing that the sampradaya is based on thousands of years of vedic culture,

they

prefer to ignor all its aspects axcept the achintya Bhed-bhed or davaitya aspect

of

philosophy, about 500 years old only. Vedic values of sadhnas, yog, tantra have

no

value because they are not useful in Kaliyuga!

Their vedic yagya or havan don't start with Ganesh puja first.

Infact, in the west I have numerous times seen them performing havanas on

special

occassions and they never even remember Ganpati. This is not vedic way!

Again, can you really concentrate without the knowledge of Trataka as also

explained

in Bhagwad Gita by Shri Krishna himself? Without the knowledge of breath

control?

Iskcon teachings completely ignore this!

Talking about yoga without pranayama is like talking about eating food without

opening your mouth.

At the same time I sincerely appreciate that:

Iskon is preaching Lord's name all over the world!

I have a few friends in Iskon who are direct Prabhupada disciples intiated in

the 70s.

Iskon did a great job in re-establishing mislead people with bad habbits.

They also have been doing good charity work with their Food for Life programme

and

promoting religious festivals. But sadly the festivals are only aimed at

bringing more

people to the organization and when more people come, their task is to further

bring

more people. I wish these festivals were a joint effort for performing sadhnas

rather

than just social gatherings.

Seeing a group of Krishna bhaktas in a foreign land, doing sankirtana and

praising the

Lord is delightful sight. I always praise them for this!

Dear DamanaKrsnaDas and all reading this letter,

I'm not trying to be smart here or trying to preach to you. But there are issues

that

need to be addressed to! Please don't feel bad about me writing anything hard.

I'm

just trying to have a healthy discussion without meaning to hurt any sampradaya

or

line of philosophy! I'm open to healthy discussions on this list. Revered

Gurudev

always was open to different kinds of spiritual knowledges and line of thoughts.

He

was not limited to any particular sampradaya or sect. And we are open to all

lines of

philosophies. We love Krsna and we love Shiva and Durga. But people in Iskon

criticize

one from the other. This is bad. Any form of God can give you completeness.

Depends

on your Guru and your level!

Jai Gurudev! Hare Krsna! Om Namah Shivay! Jai Bhagwati Jagdambe!

-- Nitesh

I'm a writer, journalist living out of India and was initiated by Gurudev

Narayan Dutt

Shrimaliji in 1990. Ever since I remain his disciple and will always be.

_____________

Original message written by damanakrsnadas / Murari Gupta:

, "damanakrsnadas"

<Murari.Gupta.Thakur.Ashrama@p...> wrote:

> Modern men think themselves very intelligent by building atom bombs

> or by gaining wealth. However real intelligence is going back home,

> back to Godhead. "To get some money by hook and crook. That is not

> intelligence. That intelligence even a small ant has, as soon as

> there is a drop of sugar juice, immediately, within a

> second, hundreds of ants will come: 'Here is a drop of sugar juice.'

> This is nature's study. This kind of buddhi, intelligence -- how to

> eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, and how to defend -- even in the

> ant is there. That is not buddhi-yoga. The real buddhi-yoga is how to

> be engaged in devotional service of the Lord. How to go

> back to home, back to Godhead. That is buddhi.

> This teaching was shown by all the saints!

April 15, 2004

Dear leondonjack,

You are right.ISKCON has become one useless organisation

in the spiritual world.But I would also like to add that it is guru yoga that

one should aim for.Guru is everything..even greater than god...I dont want to

discuss or demarcate boundaries for worldy intelligence and spiritual

intelligence...basically I think everything is karma related...one has ones

karmas to pay off.....this is my humble opinion...I dont claim any great

knowledge of spirituality...spirituality of the heart is all I know

yours yogically,

dattu

>"leondonjack" <leondonjack > >

> > Re: to message

"INTELLIGENCE?" >Sat, 10 Apr 2004 09:12:32 -0000 > >Dear Damanakrsnadas,

> >Jai Guru Dev! Hare Krsna! > >I don't fully understand the motive of your

message here since its not addressed to >anyone in particular and is not an

answer to anyone's message. It looks like you >happened to pass by and saw this

list and decided everyone's into material and petty >sadhana's (thus

unintelligent) and you decided to post a message of exceptional >intellingence.

That's what they teach in ISKCON! > >Well my dear, going back to GOD Head as

they put it, and striving towards the >spiritual contact is certainly

intelligence. But then, there are two kinds of intelligence. >One is your

spiritual life towards which you should constantly strive, another is the

>practical intelligence - how to live in this world. Both are important and

necessary! >While dealing with the wordly problems and still make effort in

your spiritual >endeavours. This is intelligence. Krsna (as people in the west

write the name) or >Krishna as we in India write it, was a great example of

this. So was Arjuna who didn't >neglect any aspect of life. He was not sitting

at one place and chanting 'Hare Krisna' >and spending life in eating and

serving prasad. He was a karma yogi and a sadhak of >highest caliber. > >Since

you are still living in this material world, you are bound to have problems.

And >you cannot be successful in your spiritual endeavours with these problems

because >your attention and energy will go towards them again and again. Can

you chant your >rounds if your body is severly aching and enemies sitting

outside your house to beat >you up? Can you chant your rounds if you don't have

enough to eat? Or if your wife is >fighting with you all the time? Or if your

kids get lost somewhere? Of course you >would start praying for help! But this

is not what gets you back! >Don't you become happy when you get success in your

material life? Didn't people at >the time of Krsna did the same? Is all this

vain?? A human, as long as he is alive, must >strive for exellence for him and

his near ones (if not for everyone). Certainly you >cannot unsee life's

problems. Didn't Krsna earn wealth? He was a King! Didn't >Prabhupada earn

wealth when he went around the world 17 times in one year? As he >said to a

journalist in the States who asked why he travelled in a Rolce Royce, he said

>Krsna had a more expensive chariot and that he could spend all the world's

wealth for >his organization! >Arjuna and all others were Kings. Though they

had to live in forests at times. All of >them played politics in their lives

and were successful as politicians, soldiers, and >grahasthas besides being

spiritually uplifted ones. To have wealth and live detached >from it should be

the ideal as said by Gurudev! > >To say only going back to Godhead is the only

intelligent activity without being able >to solve worldly problems and duties

is foolish! You cannot go back to Godhead >without first getting out of these

problems. You point towards the highest goal >without having the knowhow how to

reach even the near by goals here and now! You >talked about ants. listen to

this: when an ant wants to reach the top of a tree it has to >first crawl to

the tree root and then the trunk and then the branches. It cannot jump

>straight to the top! Can you? >I agree problems don't end. But severe problems

>are hurdles to spiritual progress. Our ancient rishis were rich, and strong.

And this is >because they they had devised many ways to deal with and solve

these hurdles. They >could concentrate on God more. What you call serving God

is high sadhna. When no >matter what you do, you devote it to the lord. That's

what the message in >BhagwadGita says. But when a certain need arises you

should also be able to get help >from spiritual sources. When Arjuna had to

fight the Mahabharata Yudha, Krsna said >to him go and do Bhagwati Sadhna!

Unles you do it you will not be able to have power >to win. Then he made him do

Pashupatastra Sadhna to please Lord Shiva and obtain >the divine Pashupatastra.

And also he asked Arjuna to establish Lord Hanuman on his >flag to ensure

complete victory. These Sadhanas were not just spiritual but had a >material

motive too. Krsna himself kept Shivratri fasts and did Shivratri sadhana. So

>did Lord Ramachandra in order to conquer Ravana! He had to free his wife Sita

devi >and establish Ramrajya. He had to do it in order to solve the problems.

Did you read >Shiv Gita? You should get yourself a copy from Khemraj

Publishers. Reading only >Iskcon literature that has replaced all yog, sadhna,

meditation and everything with >just one word "krsna conciousness' is not

enough! In order to reach this Krsna >consciousness, you need the tools -

sadhnas, meditation, specific mantras etc. and of >course the right way to

practice these mantras (not just chant without any knowledge >of pranayam

breath control, bandh mudras asan, disha) All this is important! They >were

important then, they are important now. You cannot go back to Godhead without

>knowing the way, without knowing the hurdles on this way and without getting

rid of >them. > >Reason why I'm writing a more expressive letter is I know you

are from Gaudiya >Sampraday that was started by Shri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu about

500 years back. >Iskcon, a part of it was started by Srila Prabhupada in New

York in the 70s. >I myself closely know many Iskon leaders (Indian and

western). But there are certain >issues that I don't agree with that they

preach to the westerners. That's one of the >reasons why Srila Prabhupada was

not able to preach in India, because he couldn't >convince everyone on these

issues. Westerners on the other hand knew nothing. > >These issues are: >

>Shiva is a demigod. He is not supreme God and is lower than God himself >and

only people with materialistic mind pray to him. (But he is prevedic God of

Gods >and has been prayed by Krsna and Rama too) >There is no use praying to

demigods or godesses. Iskon preaches this to all >westerners. >They don't

respect any other God. >They don't respect any other mantra except Hare Krsna

mantra. > (I was made to realize this by a number of Iskcon

disciples, > though if some of you think otherwise, then please

excuse me) >They don't respect the path of Yoga (though many Iskon leaders

privately > take yoga

and pranayam lessons) >Prabhupada wrote in nectar of devotion: Only

materialistic minded yogis concentrate >their attention on chakras - muladhar

chakra is place between anus, swadhisthan and >manipur chakra is your

intestines etc. Interestingly, Srila Prabhupada instructed his >desciples not

to read anyother literature except one with his commentary. > >Prabhupada and

his disciples claim themselves separate from Hinduism and claim to >preach pure

Vedic culture to foreigners. But when they need support or funds they say >we

are part of Hinduism. >Anouncing that the sampradaya is based on thousands of

years of vedic culture, they >prefer to ignor all its aspects axcept the

achintya Bhed-bhed or davaitya aspect of >philosophy, about 500 years old only.

Vedic values of sadhnas, yog, tantra have no >value because they are not useful

in Kaliyuga! >Their vedic yagya or havan don't start with Ganesh puja first.

>Infact, in the west I have numerous times seen them performing havanas on

special >occassions and they never even remember Ganpati. This is not vedic

way! > >Again, can you really concentrate without the knowledge of Trataka as

also explained >in Bhagwad Gita by Shri Krishna himself? Without the knowledge

of breath control? >Iskcon teachings completely ignore this! >Talking about

yoga without pranayama is like talking about eating food without >opening your

mouth. > >At the same time I sincerely appreciate that: >Iskon is preaching

Lord's name all over the world! >I have a few friends in Iskon who are direct

Prabhupada disciples intiated in the 70s. >Iskon did a great job in

re-establishing mislead people with bad habbits. >They also have been doing

good charity work with their Food for Life programme and >promoting religious

festivals. But sadly the festivals are only aimed at bringing more >people to

the organization and when more people come, their task is to further bring

>more people. I wish these festivals were a joint effort for performing sadhnas

rather >than just social gatherings. >Seeing a group of Krishna bhaktas in a

foreign land, doing sankirtana and praising the >Lord is delightful sight. I

always praise them for this! > >Dear DamanaKrsnaDas and all reading this

letter, >I'm not trying to be smart here or trying to preach to you. But there

are issues that >need to be addressed to! Please don't feel bad about me

writing anything hard. I'm >just trying to have a healthy discussion without

meaning to hurt any sampradaya or >line of philosophy! I'm open to healthy

discussions on this list. Revered Gurudev >always was open to different kinds

of spiritual knowledges and line of thoughts. He >was not limited to any

particular sampradaya or sect. And we are open to all lines of >philosophies.

We love Krsna and we love Shiva and Durga. But people in Iskon criticize >one

from the other. This is bad. Any form of God can give you completeness. Depends

>on your Guru and your level! > >Jai Gurudev! Hare Krsna! Om Namah Shivay! Jai

Bhagwati Jagdambe! > >-- Nitesh >I'm a writer, journalist living out of India

and was initiated by Gurudev Narayan Dutt >Shrimaliji in 1990. Ever since I

remain his disciple and will always be. > >

_____________ > >Original message written by

damanakrsnadas / Murari Gupta: > >,

"damanakrsnadas" ><Murari.Gupta.Thakur.Ashrama@p...> wrote: > > Modern men

think themselves very intelligent by building atom bombs > > or by gaining

wealth. However real intelligence is going back home, > > back to Godhead. "To

get some money by hook and crook. That is not > > intelligence. That

intelligence even a small ant has, as soon as > > there is a drop of sugar

juice, immediately, within a > > second, hundreds of ants will come: 'Here is a

drop of sugar juice.' > > This is nature's study. This kind of buddhi,

intelligence -- how to > > eat, how to sleep, how to have sex, and how to

defend -- even in the > > ant is there. That is not buddhi-yoga. The real

buddhi-yoga is how to > > be engaged in devotional service of the Lord. How to

go > > back to home, back to Godhead. That is buddhi. > > This teaching was

shown by all the saints! > > Contact brides &; grooms FREE! Only on

www.shaadi.com. Register now!

April 16, 2004

, "qwerty asdfg" <trishati@h...> wrote:

>

Priye atmiya,

Agreed! Karma finally plays a major role - past and the present.

Past Karm determines your present and present would determine your future!

As Lord Krishna said in the Bhagwad Gita - at the end a person will be himself

responsible for everything that happened to him or whatever he has gone through!

(I don't remember the exact phrase or the stanza number)

Also, if you meet a capable SadGuru and two situations are there -

1. If he wants to give you, and 2. You are ready to take,

then I think, nothing is immposible!

To stress the importance of Guru even Ram and Krishna, being almighty,

studied under capable Gurus!

Jai Guru dev!

Nitesh

April 16, 2004