Guest guest Posted December 9, 2005 Report Share Posted December 9, 2005 Dear feloow Sadhaka, I completely agree with you that it is indeed a waste of time and energy to argue over that issue. An argument that I did not started and nor do we aim to establish who is superior or not. It is a top agenda with the Hare-Krsnas and the come over to me and claim that tantra and Shiva is inferior etc and we are superior. What's the use of answering back, but after a while its get too mcuh, so I felt the need to address the issue. I think this shold be my last mail on the issue to them. I felt like attaching a copy. Jai Gurudev!! "Om Namah Shivaya!! I know you love to read verses. You asked me to quote the exact verses of Lord Shiva Himself saying that he is the giver of 5 kinds of liberation. I write the same below for you to read. Krsna worships Lord SadaShiva in his previous incarnation as Rama who during 'Shri ShivRaghav samwad' says in the trayodashodhyayah(Shri PadmaPuran, Shiva Gita Chapter 13 Verse 2): Bhagawankarunavishtahridaya tvam praseed me Swarupam Lakshanam Mukteh Prabruhi PARMESHVARAH Translation: Shri Rama says: O Lord - Ocean of Mercy! Be pleased and describe me the forms and characteristics of liberation. Shiva Gita, Chapter 13, Verse 3: Lord Shiva says to Ramachandra: Salokyamapi SarupyamSashtarya Sayugyamevcha Keivalyam cheti tam Viddhi Muktim Raghava Panchdha Translation: The Lord says O Rama! salokya, Sarupya, Sashtarya, Sayugya and Keivalya - these are four kinds of Liberations. Shiva Gita Chapter 13, Verse 4: Ma Pujyati Nishkaamah Sarvadaa gyanvarjitah sa me Lokam samaasaadhya bhukte bhoganyathepsitan Translation: One who, is devoid of material desires and ignorance, and worships me in my idol form, in the end comes to my loka and gets Salokya mukti and enjoys various kinds of transcendental bliss and benefits. Verse 5: Gyatva Ma Pujayetdhyastu sarvakaamvivarjitah mayaa smaanrupah sanmam loke mahiyate One who nows my real form and devotionally worships me without any desires, gets the association of my form and all his desires are fulfilled and gets Sarupya mukti. And similarly, he describes the other three ways of liberation to Ramachandra in the following 6th, 7th 8th and 9th verses, and that how one can achieve it by worshiping HIM - Shiva. In the 14th verse, Lord Shiva says: Mam Swarupgyanen Yadaavidhya Pranashyati Tadeik eva vartteiham manovaachamgocharah Translation: When with the help of realized knowledge of my true form, ignorance is removed, then even above the sound and consciousness, only I exist! First part of verse 15 Shiva says: Sadeiv Parmanandah SvaPrakaash-shchidatmakah Translation: I am the eternal Supreme Bliss, self lightened and eternal super-soul. Another part of the same verse he says: Madanyannasti Yatkinchittada Vartehamekalah Translation: There is nothing in this universe except me, Only I alone exist! In verse 37 chapter 13, Lord Shiva says to Rama: Nitya Pathati Yo dhyayamimam Ram Shranoti va Sa Muchyate Dehbandhaadnaayasen Raghava Translation: O Ramachandra! One who studies and listens to this chapter everyday gets easily relieved from this material existence. In the verses 26 and 27 of chapter 14, Lord Shiva explains to Rama the relationship of this soul with the sense organs and body saying: Kshetragyam Rathinam Shariram Rathmev tu Vraddhim tu Saarathim Viddhi Pragrah tu Manastatha (verse: 26) Explaining the body to be the chariot, sense organs as the horse in the chariot, mind the charioteer, consciousness the reins and the soul to be the passenger. Indriyani Hayanvidhi Vishayansteshu Gocharaan Indriyeirmanasa yuktam bhoktaram viddhi Purusham (verse: 27) That the pure soul when is driven by the ill-controlled senses seems to suffer. (I'm not giving the exact translation of this verse, but just the hint) Deivi Hyosha Gunamayi mam maya duratyaya (second line verse 34) It is very very difficult to get over my 'trigunatmak' maya. Mamev ye prapadhyante mayametam taranti te (Verse 35) Translation: Those who realize by surrendering to me, only get over this bondage of maya. In Verse 38 chapter 14, Lord Shiva says to Rama: Nanayonishu Jatasya Dehino Yasya Kasyachit Kotijanmaarjiteh Punyeirmyi bhaktih Prajayate Translation: Having gone through different types of births in different yonis, one out having collecting the good deeds or 'Punyas' of a million births, develop my bhakti. And then in Verse 39, Lord Shiva says further: Sa ev labhate gyanam madbhaktah Shraddhyanvitah Nanyakarmani Kurvano janmakotishtairapi Only a bhakta truly devoted to me receives the 'gyana' and the other in-spite of doing various karmas for millions of lives do not reach me. In the chapter 14, verse no. 40 of Shiv Gita, Lord Shiva says to Rama (Krsna in previous incarnation): Tatah Sarva Parityajya madbhaktim samudahar sarvadharmanparityajya mamekamSharanam Vraj Aham tvaam Sarvpaapebhyo Mokshayishyami ma shuchah Translation: Due to this reason, O Rama! Leave everything else and be devoted to me. Leave all other Dharmas and seek my refuge. I will free you from all your sins and liberate you. Do not think much now. So, dear bhakta, what else can I say after this last verse? Of course, I can go on answering all your statements, questions, pretentions etc. I have the answers. I can still answer all the above said issues by you, including your laughter. But I don't think we are gaining anything here. As I made it clear before, my agenda is not to prove a superiority issue here. Nor it is to satissfy my ego by belittling Krsna bhaktas. And it is definitely not an agenda to fight. You wrongfully believed that I may be jealouse of Krsna and his bhaktas - I really expected you to be wiser than that. You come to compete, I don't, so how can I be jealous? I do not want to come and compete with Krsna or his bhaktas. That would be foolish! Wouldn't it? What's the illusion about? Infact, I felt that I am wasting my energy in this useless argument with you. Energy that I would have otherwise utilized in my sadhna. Nor do I desire to gather a crowd of people or followers around me. Again, I respect for Prabhupada for what he did. And I consider Lord Krsna as Bhagawan. There is no argument on this issue and this is not even an issue. The only reason I came here is to stop the belitlling of Lord Shiva and some understanding on him apart from what you preach about him. But if you would still prefer to do that, then it is your prerogative. I can control only my actions. Frankly speaking, we are not at a level, where we can decide and reveal to ourselves the true identity of the Lord. Arjuna couldn't. Only HE can. Maybe you are able to do that. But I would prefer to stick to my sadhna for now. Wish you well in your endeavor!! An ordinary Shiva bhakta, Om Namah Shivaya!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 Jai Gurudev For a couple of days, I have been going over articles on Hare Krishna vs. Mahadev. Dear brother sorry if I am buttig in. I do not understand much but only that there is only one, Gurudev, and all in Him and He in everyone. Nothing beyond Him and nothing more than Him. If someone says that He is greater or She is then it is ones thinking, and in one spiritual life one achieves only according to the volume of ones bowl. Jagad Guru Shankracharay also realized this quite late that there is nothing in debates. Only love, bhakti, and shadna will matter to achieve him Aum Param Tatvaya Narayanaya Namah! Jai Gurudev --- leondonjack <leondonjack wrote: > Dear feloow Sadhaka, > > I completely agree with you that it is indeed a > waste of time and energy to argue over that > issue. An argument that I did not started and nor do > we aim to establish who is superior or > not. It is a top agenda with the Hare-Krsnas and the > come over to me and claim that tantra > and Shiva is inferior etc and we are superior. > What's the use of answering back, but after a > while its get too mcuh, so I felt the need to > address the issue. I think this shold be my last > mail on the issue to them. I felt like attaching a > copy. > Jai Gurudev!! > > > "Om Namah Shivaya!! > > I know you love to read verses. > You asked me to quote the exact verses of Lord Shiva > Himself saying that he is the giver of > 5 kinds of liberation. I write the same below for > you to read. > > Krsna worships Lord SadaShiva in his previous > incarnation as Rama who during 'Shri > ShivRaghav samwad' says in the > trayodashodhyayah(Shri PadmaPuran, Shiva Gita > Chapter > 13 Verse 2): > > Bhagawankarunavishtahridaya tvam praseed me > Swarupam Lakshanam Mukteh Prabruhi PARMESHVARAH > > Translation: Shri Rama says: O Lord - Ocean of > Mercy! Be pleased and describe me the > forms and characteristics of liberation. > > > Shiva Gita, Chapter 13, Verse 3: > Lord Shiva says to Ramachandra: > > Salokyamapi SarupyamSashtarya Sayugyamevcha > Keivalyam cheti tam Viddhi Muktim Raghava Panchdha > > Translation: The Lord says O Rama! salokya, > Sarupya, Sashtarya, Sayugya and Keivalya - > these are four kinds of Liberations. > > Shiva Gita Chapter 13, Verse 4: > > Ma Pujyati Nishkaamah Sarvadaa gyanvarjitah > sa me Lokam samaasaadhya bhukte bhoganyathepsitan > > Translation: One who, is devoid of material desires > and ignorance, and worships me in my > idol form, in the end comes to my loka and gets > Salokya mukti and enjoys various kinds of > transcendental bliss and benefits. > > Verse 5: > > Gyatva Ma Pujayetdhyastu sarvakaamvivarjitah > mayaa smaanrupah sanmam loke mahiyate > > One who nows my real form and devotionally worships > me without any desires, gets the > association of my form and all his desires are > fulfilled and gets Sarupya mukti. > > And similarly, he describes the other three ways of > liberation to Ramachandra in the > following 6th, 7th 8th and 9th verses, and that how > one can achieve it by worshiping HIM > - Shiva. In the 14th verse, Lord Shiva says: > > Mam Swarupgyanen Yadaavidhya Pranashyati > Tadeik eva vartteiham manovaachamgocharah > > Translation: When with the help of realized > knowledge of my true form, ignorance is > removed, then even above the sound and > consciousness, only I exist! > > First part of verse 15 Shiva says: > > Sadeiv Parmanandah SvaPrakaash-shchidatmakah > Translation: I am the eternal Supreme Bliss, self > lightened and eternal super-soul. > > Another part of the same verse he says: > Madanyannasti Yatkinchittada Vartehamekalah > > Translation: There is nothing in this universe > except me, Only I alone exist! > > In verse 37 chapter 13, Lord Shiva says to Rama: > > Nitya Pathati Yo dhyayamimam Ram Shranoti va > Sa Muchyate Dehbandhaadnaayasen Raghava > > Translation: O Ramachandra! One who studies and > listens to this chapter everyday gets > easily relieved from this material existence. > > In the verses 26 and 27 of chapter 14, Lord Shiva > explains to Rama the relationship of this > soul with the sense organs and body saying: > > Kshetragyam Rathinam Shariram Rathmev tu > Vraddhim tu Saarathim Viddhi Pragrah tu Manastatha > (verse: 26) > > Explaining the body to be the chariot, sense organs > as the horse in the chariot, mind the > charioteer, consciousness the reins and the soul to > be the passenger. > > Indriyani Hayanvidhi Vishayansteshu Gocharaan > Indriyeirmanasa yuktam bhoktaram viddhi Purusham > (verse: 27) > > That the pure soul when is driven by the > ill-controlled senses seems to suffer. > (I'm not giving the exact translation of this verse, > but just the hint) > > Deivi Hyosha Gunamayi mam maya duratyaya (second > line verse 34) > It is very very difficult to get over my > 'trigunatmak' maya. > > > Mamev ye prapadhyante mayametam taranti te (Verse > 35) > > Translation: Those who realize by surrendering to > me, only get over this bondage of maya. > > In Verse 38 chapter 14, Lord Shiva says to Rama: > > Nanayonishu Jatasya Dehino Yasya Kasyachit > Kotijanmaarjiteh Punyeirmyi bhaktih Prajayate > > Translation: Having gone through different types of > births in different yonis, one out > having collecting the good deeds or 'Punyas' of a > million births, develop my bhakti. > > And then in Verse 39, Lord Shiva says further: > > Sa ev labhate gyanam madbhaktah Shraddhyanvitah > Nanyakarmani Kurvano janmakotishtairapi > > Only a bhakta truly devoted to me receives the > 'gyana' and the other in-spite of doing > various karmas for millions of lives do not reach > me. > > In the chapter 14, verse no. 40 of Shiv Gita, Lord > Shiva says to Rama (Krsna in previous > incarnation): > > Tatah Sarva Parityajya madbhaktim samudahar > sarvadharmanparityajya mamekamSharanam Vraj > Aham tvaam Sarvpaapebhyo Mokshayishyami ma shuchah > > Translation: Due to this reason, O Rama! Leave > everything else and be devoted to me. > Leave all other Dharmas and seek my refuge. I will > free you from all your sins and liberate > you. Do not think much now. > > > So, dear bhakta, what else can I say after this last > verse? > Of course, I can go on answering all your > statements, questions, pretentions etc. I have the > answers. I can still answer all the above said > issues by you, including your laughter. But I > don't think we are gaining anything here. As I made > it clear before, my agenda is not to > prove a superiority issue here. Nor it is to > satissfy my ego by belittling Krsna bhaktas. And > it is definitely not an agenda to fight. You > wrongfully believed that I may be jealouse of > Krsna and his bhaktas - I really expected you to be > wiser than that. You come to compete, > I don't, so how can I be jealous? I do not want to > come and compete with Krsna or his > bhaktas. That would be foolish! Wouldn't it? What's > the illusion about? > > Infact, I felt that I am wasting my energy in this > useless argument with you. Energy that I > would have otherwise utilized in my sadhna. Nor do I > desire to gather a crowd of people or > followers around me. > > Again, I respect for Prabhupada for what he did. And > I === message truncated === Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2005 Report Share Posted December 12, 2005 What I have small knowledge is, Lord shiva's Guru is Lord Narayana/Krishna. Lord Narayana's/Krishna's Guru is Lord Shiva, When they themselves don't have problem with each other, why do we fight and waste time on such foolish things. Narayan Yantra & Shiva Yantra are same. Jai Gurudev Vikram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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