Verses no. 20 from upadeSa sAram and upadESa undiyAr

[Guest guest]

om namo bhagavte srI ramaNAya

Dear Sri Miles,

I am delighted to receive your mail. Indeed it is wondeful to dwell on this

verse. In fact, your translation captures the meaning of the sanskrit verse no

20 from upadesa sAram completely. I am able to relate to each word in the verse

and your translation.

 

It is interesting to note that, though the 30 verses of upadesa sAram correspond

one to one, to the 30 verses of upadEsa undiyAr(composed earlier by bhagavAn),

the word by word meaning of each corresponding pair of verses, sometimes, do mot

mirror but complement each other. Let us take a look at the Tamil verse no 20

from upadesa undiyAr.

 

"nAn onrunttAnattu nAn nAn enronradu

[nAn onrum tAnattu nAn nAn enru onru adu ]

tAnAgattOnrumE undIpara

[ tAnaga tOnrumE undIpara ]

 

tAnadu pUnramAm undIpara"

 

[ tAn adu punram Am undIpara ]

 

Now, the word by word meaning of the verse with the compound words split as

indicated above.

 

nAn = I, aham

 

onrum = becoming one, merging ( 'onru' is 'one' in Tamil. 'onrum' is the

derivative adjective from.)

tAnattu = in the place (stAnam)

nAn nAn enru = as 'I' 'I'

onru adu = one that ( another one)

The first line can be translated now as -> In the place where the 'I' merges,

another one, as 'I' 'I'

tAnaga = by itself

tOnrumE = will appear.

undIpara = refrain of the poem, which repeats itself in the 2nd and 3rd lines.

tAn adu = it that

punram = Complete, Whole, Infinte (pUrNam)

Am = is.

undIpara -> refrain.

The full translation of the verse, retaining the Tamil word/phrase order where

possible, can now be written as :In the place where the 'I' merges, (hRt)another

one, as 'I' , 'I', by itself appears. That is the Infinite (Complete, Supreme

Being).

 

Sri Osborne's translation of this verse is:

 

Where the "I" vanishes there appears an "I-I" by itself. This is the Infinite

(pUrNam).

 

I think Sri Arthur Osborne's translation was influenced by the Tamil version of

the verse no 20.

 

It is interesting to note that what is compressed in a single word (hRt) in the

sanskrit version gets elaborated in the Tamil version and vice versa.

It has been delightful discussing bhgavAn's words.

Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

suri

======

Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta wrote:

Dear Suri,

 

Here is another translation of verse 20. It has been wonderful looking at

this verse again today. Thank you.

 

"When the "I" sense (ego) is destroyed, the heart, the supreme complete

being (totality), bursts forth (expands, throbs) by itself as I, I."

 

I feel the sense of the sanskrit is still not quite complete in this English

translation. It misses the impression that the sanskrit gives about intense

self-effort (Self Enquiry) being involved prior to the annihilation of ego,

then the bursting forth is completely effortless.

This is also the experience of the jnani.

 

Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan

Miles

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

dear sri suri

 

http://www.consciousnessstrikes.org/upadeshasarnam.htm

 

the translations you have posted bear no resemblance to the one I

found at above

 

is this one inaccurate?

 

ja

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Suri and Sri Miles,

 

It is very enjoyable to follow your

discussion. The word-by-word

analysis makes it possible for even

a linguistic igoramus like myself to

go a little bit beyond the English.

 

Yours in Bhagavan,

 

Rob

 

 

-

"suri suryanarayan" <suri_suryanarayan

<RamanaMaharshi>

Monday, August 27, 2001 2:02 PM

[RamanaMaharshi] Verses no. 20 from upadeSa sAram and upadESa undiyAr

 

 

>

> om namo bhagavte srI ramaNAya

> Dear Sri Miles,

> I am delighted to receive your mail. Indeed it is wondeful to dwell on this

verse. In fact, your translation captures the meaning

of the sanskrit verse no 20 from upadesa sAram completely. I am able to relate

to each word in the verse and your translation.

>

> It is interesting to note that, though the 30 verses of upadesa sAram

correspond one to one, to the 30 verses of upadEsa

undiyAr(composed earlier by bhagavAn), the word by word meaning of each

corresponding pair of verses, sometimes, do mot mirror but

complement each other. Let us take a look at the Tamil verse no 20 from upadesa

undiyAr.

>

> "nAn onrunttAnattu nAn nAn enronradu

> [nAn onrum tAnattu nAn nAn enru onru adu ]

> tAnAgattOnrumE undIpara

> [ tAnaga tOnrumE undIpara ]

>

> tAnadu pUnramAm undIpara"

>

> [ tAn adu punram Am undIpara ]

>

> Now, the word by word meaning of the verse with the compound words split as

indicated above.

>

> nAn = I, aham

>

> onrum = becoming one, merging ( 'onru' is 'one' in Tamil. 'onrum' is the

derivative adjective from.)

> tAnattu = in the place (stAnam)

> nAn nAn enru = as 'I' 'I'

> onru adu = one that ( another one)

> The first line can be translated now as -> In the place where the 'I' merges,

another one, as 'I' 'I'

> tAnaga = by itself

> tOnrumE = will appear.

> undIpara = refrain of the poem, which repeats itself in the 2nd and 3rd

lines.

> tAn adu = it that

> punram = Complete, Whole, Infinte (pUrNam)

> Am = is.

> undIpara -> refrain.

> The full translation of the verse, retaining the Tamil word/phrase order where

possible, can now be written as :In the place where

the 'I' merges, (hRt)another one, as 'I' , 'I', by itself appears. That is the

Infinite (Complete, Supreme Being).

>

> Sri Osborne's translation of this verse is:

>

> Where the "I" vanishes there appears an "I-I" by itself. This is the Infinite

(pUrNam).

>

> I think Sri Arthur Osborne's translation was influenced by the Tamil version

of the verse no 20.

>

> It is interesting to note that what is compressed in a single word (hRt) in

the sanskrit version gets elaborated in the Tamil

version and vice versa.

> It has been delightful discussing bhgavAn's words.

> Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

> suri

> ======

> Miles Wright <ramana.bhakta wrote:

> Dear Suri,

>

> Here is another translation of verse 20. It has been wonderful looking at

> this verse again today. Thank you.

>

> "When the "I" sense (ego) is destroyed, the heart, the supreme complete

> being (totality), bursts forth (expands, throbs) by itself as I, I."

>

> I feel the sense of the sanskrit is still not quite complete in this English

> translation. It misses the impression that the sanskrit gives about intense

> self-effort (Self Enquiry) being involved prior to the annihilation of ego,

> then the bursting forth is completely effortless.

> This is also the experience of the jnani.

>

> Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan

> Miles

>

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[Guest guest]

om namo bhagavte SrI ramaNAya

This site was referred to earlier by Sri Adam and we had exchanged mails. I have

reproduced below, extracts from that mail for your information.

 

------

 

Dear Sri Adam,

 

I visited the website you had referred to. It appears to be a site devoted to

Sri Ramesh Balsekar, a well known desciple of Sri Nisaragadatta Maharaj. (Sri

Maurice Frydman, another great devotee of Bhagavan spent his later years, after

the Mahanirvana of Bhagavan, at Mumbai recording the dialogues of Sri

Nisargadatta Maharaj with disciples, which is available as the book titled "I

Am That".) This website seems to have Upadesa Saram verses no 2 to 21 only. I

searched the site for the remaining verses but could not get them.

 

The English passage given below each verse is more in the nature of a

commentary and less, of a translation. This commentary is probably of Sri

Ramesh Balsekar. There are several commentaries available on Upadesa Sara. I

have those by Sri A R Natarajan and Swami Tejomayanada. You may refer to the

book of Sri Osborne " Collected Works of Ramana Maharshi" for a crisp

translation of Upadesa Saram. I have been referring to the book with commentary

by Sri A R Natarajan . This book contains a verse by verse translation, as well

as the meaning of Sanskrit phrases in each verse making it possible to pick-up

some knowledge of Sanskrit in the process.

namo ramaNA - suri

-----------

 

It will be nice if the literal translations of the Sanskrit and corresponding

Tamil verses of bhagavAn's upadesa can be put together side by side for the

benefit of the readers. This will help us get a flavour of bhagavAn's words

before we get to read the various commentaries. Unfortunately, my knowledge of

Tamil (my mother tongue) is limited as I have not had a formal education in

Tamil as a language. If we can get a person more knowledgeable to do so it will

be nice. For the translation of the sanskrit verses, ofcourse I will go by Sri

Miles' translation. I am sure we can get him to share his joy of dwelling on

bhagavAn's upadesa, by translating upadesa sAram verse by verse.

 

Ever yours in Sri Bhagavan,

 

 

 

suri

 

 

 

jakkha wrote:

dear sri suri

 

http://www.consciousnessstrikes.org/upadeshasarnam.htm

 

the translations you have posted bear no resemblance to the one I

found at above

 

is this one inaccurate?

 

ja

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Suri,

 

Thank you for this suggestion. It would indeed be a joy to translate

these verses. While I have already started to write a literal

translation of the verses, mild ill health has slowed things down a

little here. Hopefully they can be posted soon. Perhaps you could

translate from the Tamil, verse by verse. I feel sure Sri Bhagavan

would bless such endeavour.

 

Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

Miles

-------------------

 

>It will be nice if the literal translations of the Sanskrit and

>corresponding Tamil verses of bhagavAn's upadesa can be put together

>side by side for the benefit of the readers. This will help us get a

>flavour of bhagavAn's words before we get to read the various

>commentaries. Unfortunately, my knowledge of Tamil (my mother tongue)

>is limited as I have not had a formal education in Tamil as a

>language. If we can get a person more knowledgeable to do so it will

>be nice. For the translation of the sanskrit verses, ofcourse I will

>go by Sri Miles' translation. I am sure we can get him to share his

>joy of dwelling on bhagavAn's upadesa, by translating upadesa sAram

>verse b

[Guest guest]

om namo bhagavate SrI ramaNAya

 

Dear Sri Miles,

 

I am delighted to receive your mail. With Bhagavan's

blessings there will be nothing to hold us back. Hope

your health will recover quickly and permit you to get

started with this. I will try to put together a

literal Tamil translation of the verses of upadeSa

undiyAr based on what is available in literature.

 

namo ramaNA

 

Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

 

suri

 

 

--- Miles Wright wrote: -----------------

 

Dear Sri Suri,

 

Thank you for this suggestion. It would indeed be a

joy to translate these verses. While I have already

started to write a literal translation of the verses,

mild ill health has slowed things down a little here.

Hopefully they can be posted soon. Perhaps you could

translate from the Tamil, verse by verse. I feel sure

Sri Bhagavan would bless such endeavour.

 

Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

Miles

-------------------

 

> It will be nice if the literal translations of the

> Sanskrit and corresponding Tamil verses of

> bhagavAn's upadesa can be put together side by side

> for the benefit of the readers. This will help us

> get a flavour of bhagavAn's words before we get to

> read the various commentaries. Unfortunately, my

> knowledge of Tamil (my mother tongue)is limited as I

> have not had a formal education in Tamil as a

> language. If we can get a person more knowledgeable

> to do so it will be nice. For the translation of the

> sanskrit verses, ofcourse I will go by Sri Miles'

> translation. I am sure we can get him to share his

> joy of dwelling on bhagavAn's upadesa, by

> translating upadesa sAram verse by verse ...

 

 

 

__________

 

For regular News updates go to http://in.news.

[Guest guest]

> om namo bhagavate SrI ramaNAya

 

dhyAna mUlam guror murtih;

pUja mUlam guror padam;

Mantra mUlam guror vakyam;

Moksha mUlam guror kripa

 

The Guru's Form is the basis of meditation

The Guru's Feet are the place of worship

The Guru's Words are the origin of mantra

The Guru's Grace is the foundation of liberation.

 

 

Dear Sri Suri,

 

Good. It is begun.

 

Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

Miles

 

----------------

> I am delighted to receive your mail. With Bhagavan's

> blessings there will be nothing to hold us back. Hope

> your health will recover quickly and permit you to get

> started with this. I will try to put together a

> literal Tamil translation of the verses of upadeSa

> undiyAr based on what is available in literature.

>

> namo ramaNA

>

> Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

>

> suri

[Guest guest]

om namo bhagavate SrI ramaNAya

 

Dear Sri Miles,

 

om SrI gurave namah

 

I will send you from now on, one verse of upadeSa

undiyAr at a time, with the the English translation of

the Tamil translation given by Sri Sadhu Om. To the

extent possible, I will also try to add meanings of

tamil phrases in the verses when I feel it may further

help in understanding the verse. You may add to this

mail the corresponding the verse from upadeSa sAram

with translation and then post it to the group with

your additonal comments.

 

namo Sri Miles.

 

namo ramaNA.

 

Yours in Sri bhagavAn,

 

suri

 

--- Miles Wright wrote: ----------------

 

> om namo bhagavate SrI ramaNAya

 

dhyAna mUlam guror murtih;

pUja mUlam guror padam;

Mantra mUlam guror vakyam;

Moksha mUlam guror kripa

 

The Guru's Form is the basis of meditation

The Guru's Feet are the place of worship

The Guru's Words are the origin of mantra

The Guru's Grace is the foundation of liberation.

 

 

Dear Sri Suri,

 

Good. It is begun.

 

Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

Miles

 

----------------

> I am delighted to receive your mail. With

Bhagavan's

> blessings there will be nothing to hold us back.

Hope

> your health will recover quickly and permit you to

get

> started with this. I will try to put together a

> literal Tamil translation of the verses of upadeSa

> undiyAr based on what is available in literature.

>

> namo ramaNA

>

> Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

>

> suri

 

 

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[Guest guest]

om namo bhagavate SrI ramaNAya

 

Dear Sri Vicki,

 

The :Re: verse no 20 .." that appears as the subject

in the recent mails of dear Sri Miles ans self was a

carry over from an earlier exchange of mails a few

weeks ago. If you would recall, we had exchanged some

mails on the import 'I'- 'I' as used by bhagavan in

verse no 20.

 

However the current mails concern the posting of the

translations of verses of the corresponding pairs of

upadESa undiyAr and upadeSa saram which we wish to

begin with the blessings of bhagavn Sri ramaNA.

 

The gurustuti given by dear Sri Miles is a prayer to

our guru, bhagavan Sri ramaNA which is suitable for

all of us to recite every day.

 

Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

 

suri

 

--- Miles Wright wrote: ---------------

 

Dear Vicki,

 

The verse I quoted is from Guru Gita. It was quoted

as a prostration to Guru

Ramana prior to embarking on a translation of His

words (i.e. upadeSa sAram

and the Tamil version: upadESa undiyAr).

 

I have translated mUlam, which in essence means

'root', in a variety of ways

based on 'rootness'. It could just as well have been

translated as 'root' or

'basis' in each line.

 

I look forward to Sri Suri's translation, from Tamil,

of 'upadesa undiyar'

and the translation from sanskrit of 'upadesa saram'.

 

Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan,

Miles

 

 

>

> Dear Miles ,

>

> i am confused ; i have only The Collected Works and

this is not

> verse 20; the subject of this post is verse no 20;

> what verse is it ? what does  mUlam mean ?

> vicki

>

>

>>

>> dhyAna mUlam guror murtih;

>> pUja mUlam guror padam;

>> Mantra mUlam guror vakyam;

>> Moksha mUlam guror kripa

>>

>> The Guru's Form is the basis of meditation

>> The Guru's Feet are the place of worship

>> The Guru's Words are the origin of mantra

>> The Guru's Grace is the foundation of liberation.

 

 

__________

 

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