Guest guest Posted February 4, 2002 Report Share Posted February 4, 2002 Dear Sri Ebert, It is just excellent. A straight answer to my probing. I must say that HE prompted you to write this to guide me and quell my thoughts. I am really overwhelmed by HIS (your) blessings. Love and respects. Gopi Krishna. ===== Message: 3 Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:07:45 +0100 "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert Is everything ordained? Is Everything Ordained? By Devaraja Mudaliar ONE summer afternoon I was sitting opposite Bhagavan in the Old Hall with a fan in my hand and said to him: "I can understand that the outstanding events in a man's life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, etc. are all predestined by his karma, but can it be that all the details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a day, at such and a such an hour, I shall move the fan like this and put it down here?" Bhagavan replied "Certainly." He continued: "Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when it came into existence." Thereupon I naturally exclaimed: "What becomes then of man's freedom and responsibility for his actions?" Bhagavan explained: "The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the jnana which will enable him not to identify himself with the body. The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by prarabdha (destiny based on the balance sheet of past lives) and a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions, or to be detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities." This may not be acceptable to many learned people or philosophers, but I am sure I have made no error in transmitting as above the gist of the conversation that took place between Bhagavan and me. Though this answer of Bhagavan may upset the apple cart of our careful reasonings and conclusions, I am satisfied that what Bhagavan said must be the truth. I also recall in this connection the following lines that Bhagavan once quoted to me from Thayumanavar on another occasion: "This is not to be taught to all. Even if we tell them, it will only lead to endless discussion." It may be well to remind readers that Bhagavan has given his classic answer to the age-old question "Can freewill conquer fate?" as follows in his Forty Verses. "Such questions worry only those who have not found the source of both freewill and fate. Those who have found this source have left all such discussions behind." The usual reaction of Bhagavan to any such question would be to retort: "Who is it that has this fate or freewill? Find that out and then this question will not arise." - First appeared in the Call Divine, December 1, 1959 The mind is a bundle of thoughts. The thoughts arise because there is the thinker. The thinker is the ego. The ego, if sought, will automatically vanish. The ego and the mind are the same. The ego is the root-thought from which all other thoughts arise. - Sri Ramana Maharshi Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! http://greetings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2002 Report Share Posted February 5, 2002 Hello: I have to admit, this is the toughest part of Sri Bhagavan's teaching for me to understand. In fact, this is the only part that I have a difficult time with. While I can see his viewpoint in a situation like India in the past where there was little or no flexibility in terms of type of employment, culture, caste membership, and many other factors of life, I have seen too many here in the West, in modern times who seemed to have overcome the "flow of fate" through concerted effort and prayerful action. Just my thoughts, Mark Dear Sri Ebert, It is just excellent. A straight answer to my probing. I must say that HE prompted you to write this to guide me and quell my thoughts. I am really overwhelmed by HIS (your) blessings. Love and respects. Gopi Krishna. ===== Message: 3 Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:07:45 +0100 "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert Is everything ordained? Is Everything Ordained? By Devaraja Mudaliar ONE summer afternoon I was sitting opposite Bhagavan in the Old Hall with a fan in my hand and said to him: "I can understand that the outstanding events in a man's life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, etc. are all predestined by his karma, but can it be that all the details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a day, at such and a such an hour, I shall move the fan like this and put it down here?" Bhagavan replied "Certainly." He continued: "Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when it came into existence." Thereupon I naturally exclaimed: "What becomes then of man's freedom and responsibility for his actions?" Bhagavan explained: "The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the jnana which will enable him not to identify himself with the body. The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by prarabdha (destiny based on the balance sheet of past lives) and a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions, or to be detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities." This may not be acceptable to many learned people or philosophers, but I am sure I have made no error in transmitting as above the gist of the conversation that took place between Bhagavan and me. Though this answer of Bhagavan may upset the apple cart of our careful reasonings and conclusions, I am satisfied that what Bhagavan said must be the truth. I also recall in this connection the following lines that Bhagavan once quoted to me from Thayumanavar on another occasion: "This is not to be taught to all. Even if we tell them, it will only lead to endless discussion." It may be well to remind readers that Bhagavan has given his classic answer to the age-old question "Can freewill conquer fate?" as follows in his Forty Verses. "Such questions worry only those who have not found the source of both freewill and fate. Those who have found this source have left all such discussions behind." The usual reaction of Bhagavan to any such question would be to retort: "Who is it that has this fate or freewill? Find that out and then this question will not arise." - First appeared in the Call Divine, December 1, 1959 The mind is a bundle of thoughts. The thoughts arise because there is the thinker. The thinker is the ego. The ego, if sought, will automatically vanish. The ego and the mind are the same. The ego is the root-thought from which all other thoughts arise. - Sri Ramana Maharshi Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! http://greetings. Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi- List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/RamanaMaharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2002 Report Share Posted February 5, 2002 Hello Mark, > I have to admit, this is the toughest part of Sri Bhagavan's teaching > for me to understand. In fact, this is the only part that I have a difficult > time with. While I can see his viewpoint in a situation like India in the > past where there was little or no flexibility in terms of type of employment, > culture, caste membership, and many other factors of life, I have seen too > many here in the West, in modern times who seemed to have overcome > the "flow of fate" through concerted effort and prayerful action. Things happen. Deeds are done. One can associate with the actions done with desire by this body/mind, and claim praise in success and deny blame in failure (or blame others etc.). Or one can turn to the Self in complete surrender. Everything happens according to prarabdha. This will exhaust itself if one surrenders to the Self. The path of desire gives the illusion of free-will to a fictitious individual ... the path of surrender submits to the will of the sole reality of Self. This is jnana. This is bhakti. There is no I, no you etc, to claim free will or submit to predestiny. There is nothing outside of Self. And from Conscious Immortality: 'Whose freewill is it? You believe it is yours. You are beyond freewill and fate. Abide as that and you transcend them both.' (Ramana Maharshi) Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan, Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 5, 2002 Report Share Posted February 5, 2002 I have lost friends with my belief about there being no free will. If everything in the universe in interconnected and for anything to happen the whole universe must make it happen, how can there be free will? If the person is an illusion then free will must be an illusion also. With a powerful enough computer and a program to suit, one could predict what is going to happen at any given moment, even what any particular atom in the universe is doing. I believed this 45 years ago when I was not into any spiritual trip and found a path that agrees with me or that I agree with. Aloha, Alton Hello: I have to admit, this is the toughest part of Sri Bhagavan's teaching for me to understand. In fact, this is the only part that I have a difficult time with. While I can see his viewpoint in a situation like India in the past where there was little or no flexibility in terms of type of employment, culture, caste membership, and many other factors of life, I have seen too many here in the West, in modern times who seemed to have overcome the "flow of fate" through concerted effort and prayerful action. Just my thoughts, Mark Dear Sri Ebert, It is just excellent. A straight answer to my probing. I must say that HE prompted you to write this to guide me and quell my thoughts. I am really overwhelmed by HIS (your) blessings. Love and respects. Gopi Krishna. ===== Message: 3 Sun, 3 Feb 2002 17:07:45 +0100 "Gabriele Ebert" <g.ebert Is everything ordained? Is Everything Ordained? By Devaraja Mudaliar ONE summer afternoon I was sitting opposite Bhagavan in the Old Hall with a fan in my hand and said to him: "I can understand that the outstanding events in a man's life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, etc. are all predestined by his karma, but can it be that all the details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a day, at such and a such an hour, I shall move the fan like this and put it down here?" Bhagavan replied "Certainly." He continued: "Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when it came into existence." Thereupon I naturally exclaimed: "What becomes then of man's freedom and responsibility for his actions?" Bhagavan explained: "The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the jnana which will enable him not to identify himself with the body. The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by prarabdha (destiny based on the balance sheet of past lives) and a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions, or to be detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities." This may not be acceptable to many learned people or philosophers, but I am sure I have made no error in transmitting as above the gist of the conversation that took place between Bhagavan and me. Though this answer of Bhagavan may upset the apple cart of our careful reasonings and conclusions, I am satisfied that what Bhagavan said must be the truth. I also recall in this connection the following lines that Bhagavan once quoted to me from Thayumanavar on another occasion: "This is not to be taught to all. Even if we tell them, it will only lead to endless discussion." It may be well to remind readers that Bhagavan has given his classic answer to the age-old question "Can freewill conquer fate?" as follows in his Forty Verses. "Such questions worry only those who have not found the source of both freewill and fate. Those who have found this source have left all such discussions behind." The usual reaction of Bhagavan to any such question would be to retort: "Who is it that has this fate or freewill? Find that out and then this question will not arise." - First appeared in the Call Divine, December 1, 1959 The mind is a bundle of thoughts. The thoughts arise because there is the thinker. The thinker is the ego. The ego, if sought, will automatically vanish. The ego and the mind are the same. The ego is the root-thought from which all other thoughts arise. - Sri Ramana Maharshi Send FREE Valentine eCards with Greetings! http://greetings. Sponsor Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi- List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/RamanaMaharshi Sponsor Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi- List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/RamanaMaharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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