double approach: advaita and bhakti

[Guest guest]

Dear Sai,

thank you for your beautiful personal sharing.

I know this situation only too well. In the beginning I also refused to

recognize myself being a devotee, because a devotee is in duality - and the

teaching is non-duality. I also thought like you that I should only be fixed on

the Self. Only to illustrate it: When I first came in contact with Ramana and

saw his photo in a book I was very faszinated not only of his teaching but of

his photo alike (perhaps more of his photo than of his teaching). This caused a

confusion and in the beginning I did not allow myself to meditate in front of a

photo of Sri Ramana but continued to meditate in front of an emty wall or with

look to the floor like I was used in zen.

But I discovered very soon that it was the most normal thing among those who had

been drawn to Ramana, to meditate also on his form and this was a real great and

releaving discovery for me. Muruganar for example (one of the greatest

Ramana-devotees, who realized the Self) was so much drawn to Sri Ramana's form

that he forgot about everything.

Once when Muruganar was working wiht Sri Ramana in the kitchen Bhagavan narrated

one of his many stories. "Muruganar became wholly absorbed in what was being

told. His work became slipshood and then he stopped while Bhagavan completed his

portion of it. Noticing this Bhagavan humourusly remarked: 'Fine! Fine! The way

you have cut the vegetables is no better than the way you managed your house!'"

(in: Ramana's Muruganar)

 

Sri Ramana often stressed, that bhakti and jnana lead to one and the same. There

is nothing wrong with following self-enquiry and being at the same time a bhakta

and surrender to the guru. The real surrender is always to the Self. Guru and

Self are one and the same. Jnana is nothing than surrender. Certainly the form

of the Guru will vanish, but bhakti and surrender remain until the end.

 

Reading your sharing the impression comes to me that you feel in your heart

being a bhakta but you do not allow yourself being a bhakta (your mind doesn't

allow it) because you think you should only do Self-enquiry. That's a part of

my own Ramana-story. Only when I allowed myself being a bhakta the door to

Self-enquiry also opened because of the power, grace and peace of the Guru,

which is stilling the mind. I learned to be aware of this I-thought because the

silent presence of the guru opens the heart which is the natural "seat" of the

I. But I am still at the very beginning of that way - hoping the Guru will lead

me step by step. (It is his task - or not?)

 

I think, the greatness of Sri Ramana find its expression also in that fact of

the double approach and that there is a balance and natural completion between

both.

 

In HIM

Gabriele

 

 

 

 

 

Message: 2

Sun, 3 Feb 2002 16:08:38 -0000

"prashanti" <prashanti

Re: Re: self enquiry in action

 

Dear Gabriel,

Thank you very much for your response; forgive my lateness in replying - my

time is usually very limited (plus i'm a slow typer)

I appreciate your personal sharing, and i relate to much of it also.

 

Can i take it then, that Ramana was agreeable with this double approach -

pure advaita and bhakti towards the embodied guru? Saguna and Naguna - one

foot walking with the form and one with the formless. This seems to me to be

necessary untill a certain stage of devepment is reached.? Though often i

find myself unsure as to how i should proceed with my sadhana.

For want of a better word, being a 'devotee' of an other being; i do feel so

much peace and connectedness when i dwell on his form, but then i get

thoughts that maybe i shouldn't be doing this, that i should focus solely on

the Self instead. Problem is, that confusion usually results in a lack of

intensity in my sadhana

 

I feel like a bit of a dim wit here - i just can't seem to grasp this

"holding/tracing the I thought" The I thought seems to be sub-conscious in

nature, i can't find/trace the source of it! I feel that i must be missing

something? I ask myself who am i...and nothing. I don't know how to trace

this i - how do you do it?

 

Yes Gabriel. Being the watcher... how difficult it is! My aim is also to be

that - to constantly be in 'the prescence' This is my main reason for

seeking to get to grips with self-enquiry...when the mind is still, the Self

is - everything flows from there

 

Blessings

Sai

 

 

> Dear Sai, dear All,

> It is not at all a silly question how people practice self-enquiry. The

idea is in my mind if we could not share something about our actual

spiritual practices here also. There may be different ways of practice and

we could learn from each other. I think on simply sharing - not discussing

the matter and no one should feel to be forced to join in.

>

> The one who have the suggestion also have to start. Ok. I will try to

share something about my actual spiritual practice.

> Being a devotee of Sri Ramana I practice self-enquiry and bhakti. This is

mostly normal for Ramana devotees as far as I can see. Both aspects merge

together as one. I try to be in contact with Ramana and self-enquiry as much

as possible during all the waking hours. It should be of course constantly.

It is not yet. Distractions are manyfold and so I try to remember HIM as the

beloved Guru and the true Self as soon as I become aware of the distraction.

(I try and often I fail!) Distractions are not the work nor even the many

thoughts but to lose the awareness of the "watcher" and being identified

with the watched (thoughts, objects etc.) When practicing self-enquiry I try

to be concentrated on the I-thought and go back from there to the source

where it arises. The breath becomes very slow, also the beating of the

heart. Sometimes there is a bodily feeling of the spiritual heart on the

right side of the chest and the awareness of a deep silence - which is not

merely lack of words and thoughts but real fullness and as Ramana says, the

most eloquent speech in which everything is said. (Sorry, I can't describe

it better and this are only some glimpses, nothing more.)

>

> Very often distractions and thoughts are too strong to practice pure

self-enquiry. Then I try everything that may help to quieten the mind. This

can be watching the breath as it is teached in Zen or chanting mentally the

name of Ramana "Om Namo Bhagavate Sri Ramanaya". A strong power is simply

looking at a picture of Bhagavan and reading something of his teaching or a

Ramana-story. A strong power is also the praying to Him.

> I try to have fixed times for meditation also. Morning and evening are

good times. But I feel I am only at the very beginning of that path called

"Self-enquiry".

>

> I would like to hear about the spiritual practice of other devotees and

also of those who are here and are no Ramana devotees.

>

> In HIM

> Gabriele

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> Dear Sai,

> thank you for your beautiful personal sharing.

 

Ah, you flatter me kind sir! Whoops, forgive me Gabriele i know not your

gender; perhaps you are a lady?

 

> I know this situation only too well. In the beginning I also refused to

recognize myself being a devotee, because a devotee is in duality - and the

teaching is non-duality. I also thought like you that I should only be fixed

on the Self. Only to illustrate it: When I first came in contact with Ramana

and saw his photo in a book I was very faszinated not only of his teaching

but of his photo alike (perhaps more of his photo than of his teaching).

This caused a confusion and in the beginning I did not allow myself to

meditate in front of a photo of Sri Ramana but continued to meditate in

front of an emty wall or with look to the floor like I was used in zen.

 

So much of your sharing here i find identical with my own experience.

Almost as soon as i'd started on my non-dual 'path'; into my life comes this

all inspiring Being!...which was all the more confusing for me then; here

was this 'man' who had complete control over the elements, knew seemingly

anything & everything - most of his devotees saw him as God him/herself.

I was familiar with great psychics of the past, various yogis with amazing

siddhis even; but i'd never come across anybody who could do anything near

in comparison.

My awareness of Avatars & 'Masters' at this time was non existent, so you

can imagine the turmoil (though not painful!) that this created for my mind!

I too thought that this was God - I couldn't see how any 'man' could be all

this. Now i have a, shall we say more mature understanding; and have

somewhat 'clearer vision'

 

> But I discovered very soon that it was the most normal thing among those

who had been drawn to Ramana, to meditate also on his form and this was a

real great and releaving discovery for me. Muruganar for example (one of the

greatest Ramana-devotees, who realized the Self) was so much drawn to Sri

Ramana's form that he forgot about everything.

> Once when Muruganar was working wiht Sri Ramana in the kitchen Bhagavan

narrated one of his many stories. "Muruganar became wholly absorbed in what

was being told. His work became slipshood and then he stopped while Bhagavan

completed his portion of it. Noticing this Bhagavan humourusly remarked:

'Fine! Fine! The way you have cut the vegetables is no better than the way

you managed your house!'" (in: Ramana's Muruganar)

>

> Sri Ramana often stressed, that bhakti and jnana lead to one and the same.

There is nothing wrong with following self-enquiry and being at the same

time a bhakta and surrender to the guru. The real surrender is always to the

Self. Guru and Self are one and the same. Jnana is nothing than surrender.

Certainly the form of the Guru will vanish, but bhakti and surrender remain

until the end.

 

I do understand that true bhakti and surrender are beyond the personal. I

think i worry that while i express bhakti to the 'form', i shall be

hindering/blocking the experiencing of the Self

 

> Reading your sharing the impression comes to me that you feel in your

heart being a bhakta but you do not allow yourself being a bhakta (your mind

doesn't allow it) because you think you should only do Self-enquiry.

 

Yes, i think you have it right there. Being a bhakta, my mind? my

understanding, tells me that this is a step that needs to be transcended -

gone beyond. Then i try to go with those thoughts, but often find it

difficult to 'feel' the love - then i think of the form, and a smile

appears, love is felt; then i think Ah! "this i should be doing" and i try

and combine the two....then those thoughts arise again, andthe cycle repeas

itself!

 

> That's

a part of my own Ramana-story. Only when I allowed myself being a bhakta the

door to Self-enquiry also opened because of the power, grace and peace of

the Guru, which is stilling the mind. I learned to be aware of this

I-thought because the silent presence of the guru opens the heart which is

the natural "seat" of the I. But I am still at the very beginning of that

>way - hoping the Guru will lead me step by step. (It is his task - or not?)

 

This is interesting and helpful; i will ponder upon your experience

 

> I think, the greatness of Sri Ramana find its expression also in that fact

of the double approach and that there is a balance and natural completion

between both.

 

I'm sure you're right Gabriele. Finding that balance is what i need to do

Thank you very much for your sharing with me - i much appreciate it

 

blessings

Sai