Guest guest Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 I know this is a website dedicated to Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi, but some of you may be interested in reading the experience of U G Krishnamurti (no relation to J Krishnamurti). He did meet Ramana Maharshi, so there is some justification for mentioning him here, but his 'path' is so strange I thought it might interest you. http://www.well.com/user/jct/mystiq.htm _______________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 you can find UG books freely available at www.well.com/user/jct i've read "mystique of enlightment" and "mind is a myth", but didnt like'm at all. He claims to be iluminated be he acts like an angry resented man who lost himself in the spiritual path, and instead of finding peace and wisdom, found bitterness and negativism. anyway its just my opinion and i could be wrong... PS: plus he speaks with contempt of Sri Ramana Maharshi. - vic w <shivaguy108 <RamanaMaharshi> [RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 I really don't know that much about UGK - I just read the first of Mystique today, but I find him interesting. You may be right about him being angry and resentful, I couldn't say at the moment. But I haven't yet seen him speak with contempt about Sri Ramana. The only thing I have read is his meeting with Sri Ramana in which, to my mind, he freely reveals his own lack of understanding. He thought Sri Ramana was being arrogant, but that was only because at the time he didn't understand him. Clearly Sri Ramana's answer could come across as being arrogant, but a) his first answer was 'silence' (as usual) and b) UGK was being very arrogant and no doubt deserved an arrogant reply. For those who don't know what this refers to I have copied the account of the meeting below - I think it took place around 1939. >From Mystique of Enlightenment "Then somebody came along, and we were discussing all these things. He found me practically an atheist (but not a practicing atheist), skeptical of everything, heretical down to my boots. He said "There is one man here, somewhere in Madras at Tiruvannamalai, called Ramana Maharshi. Come on, let's go and see that man. Here is a living human embodiment of the Hindu tradition." I didn't want to see any holy man. If you have seen one, you have seen them all. I never shopped around, went around searching for people, sitting at the feet of the masters, learning something; because everybody tells you "Do more and more of the same thing, and you will get it." What I got were more and more experiences, and then those experiences demanded permanence -- and there is no such thing as permanence. So, "The holy men are all phonies -- they are telling me only what is there in the books. That I can read -- 'Do the same again and again' -- that I don't want. Experiences I don't want. They are trying to share an experience with me. I'm not interested in experience. As far as experience goes, for me there is no difference between the religious experience and the sex experience or any other experience; the religious experience is like any other experience. I am not interested in experiencing Brahman; I am not interested in experiencing reality; I am not interested in experiencing truth. They might help others; but they cannot help me. I'm not interested in doing more of the same; what I have done is enough. At school if you want to solve a mathematical problem, you repeat it again and again -- you solve the mathematical problem, and you discover that the answer is in the problem. So, what the hell are you doing, trying to solve the problem? It is easier to find the answer first instead of going through all this." So, reluctantly, hesitatingly, unwilling, I went to see Ramana Maharshi. That fellow dragged me. He said "Go there once. Something will happen to you." He talked about it and gave me a book, Search in Secret India by Paul Brunton, so I read the chapter relating to this man -- "All right, I don't mind, let me go and see." That man was sitting there. From his very presence I felt "What! This man -- how can he help me? This fellow who is reading comic strips, cutting vegetables, playing with this, that or the other -- how can this man help me? He can't help me." Anyway, I sat there. Nothing happened; I looked at him, and he looked at me. "In his presence you feel silent, your questions disappear, his look changes you" -- all that remained a story, fancy stuff to me. I sat there. There were a lot of questions inside, silly questions -- so, "The questions have not disappeared. I have been sitting here for two hours, and the questions are still there. All right, let me ask him some questions" -- because at that time I very much wanted moksha. This part of my background, moksha, I wanted. "You are supposed to be a liberated man" -- I didn't say that. "Can you give me what you have?" -- I asked him this question, but that man didn't answer, so after some lapse of time I repeated that question -- "I am asking 'Whatever you have, can you give it to me?'" He said, "I can give you, but can you take it?" Boy! For the first time this fellow says that he has something and that I can't take it. Nobody before had said "I can give you," but this man said "I can give you, but can you take it?" Then I said to myself "If there is any individual in this world who can take it, it is me, because I have done so much sadhana, seven years of sadhana. He can think that I can't take it, but I can take it. If I can't take it, who can take it?" - -- that was my frame of mind at the time -- you know, (Laughs) I was so confident of myself. I didn't stay with him, I didn't read any of his books, so I asked him a few more questions: "Can one be free sometimes and not free sometimes?" He said "Either you are free, or you are not free at all." There was another question which I don't remember. He answered in a very strange way: "There are no steps leading you to that." But I ignored all these things. These questions didn't matter to me -- the answers didn't interest me at all. But this question "Can you take it?" ... "How arrogant he is!" -- that was my feeling. "Why can't I take it, whatever it is? What is it that he has?" -- that was my question, a natural question. So, the question formulated itself: "What is that state that all those people - - Buddha, Jesus and the whole gang -- were in? Ramana is in that state -- supposed to be, I don't know -- but that chap is like me, a human being. How is he different from me? What others say or what he is saying is of no importance to me; anybody can do what he is doing. What is there? He can't be very much different from me. He was also born from parents. He has his own particular ideas about the whole business. Some people say something happened to him, but how is he different from me? What is there: What is that state?" -- that was my fundamental question, the basic question -- that went on and on and on. "I must find out what that state is. Nobody can give that state; I am on my own. I have to go on this uncharted sea without a compass, without a boat, with not even a raft to take me. I am going to find out for myself what the state is in which that man is." I wanted that very much, otherwise I wouldn't have given my life. " >"Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg >RamanaMaharshi ><RamanaMaharshi> >Re: [RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti >Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:36:40 -0300 > >you can find UG books freely available at www.well.com/user/jct >i've read "mystique of enlightment" and "mind is a myth", but didnt like'm >at all. He claims to be iluminated be he acts like an angry resented man >who >lost himself in the spiritual path, and instead of finding peace and >wisdom, >found bitterness and negativism. anyway its just my opinion and i could be >wrong... >PS: plus he speaks with contempt of Sri Ramana Maharshi. > >- >vic w <shivaguy108 ><RamanaMaharshi> >[RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > > _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 2, 2002 Report Share Posted April 2, 2002 I agree with you, Vic, that UG was arrogant himself - not only when he met Ramana also in his later meeting with J. Krishnamurty. There was a lack of understanding. He had the chance to meet such great men, but he could not make use of it. It is somehow a tragedy. But it seems not have been his way. He pushed aside everything and everyone and somehow could do not differently as he felt he had to find out truth for himself - and in this he is honest and clear. When I read about him yesterday my feelings for him were divided. He is a very interesting guy with an interesting life and interesting ideas. Gabriele RamanaMaharshi, "vic w" <shivaguy108@h...> wrote: > I really don't know that much about UGK - I just read the first of Mystique > today, but I find him interesting. You may be right about him being angry > and resentful, I couldn't say at the moment. But I haven't yet seen him > speak with contempt about Sri Ramana. The only thing I have read is his > meeting with Sri Ramana in which, to my mind, he freely reveals his own lack > of understanding. He thought Sri Ramana was being arrogant, but that was > only because at the time he didn't understand him. Clearly Sri Ramana's > answer could come across as being arrogant, but a) his first answer was > 'silence' (as usual) and b) UGK was being very arrogant and no doubt > deserved an arrogant reply. > > For those who don't know what this refers to I have copied the account of > the meeting below - I think it took place around 1939. > > From Mystique of Enlightenment > > "Then somebody came along, and we were discussing all these things. He found > me > practically an atheist (but not a practicing atheist), skeptical of > everything, > heretical down to my boots. He said "There is one man here, somewhere in > Madras > at Tiruvannamalai, called Ramana Maharshi. Come on, let's go and see that > man. > Here is a living human embodiment of the Hindu tradition." > I didn't want to see any holy man. If you have seen one, you have seen them > all. > I never shopped around, went around searching for people, sitting at the > feet of > the masters, learning something; because everybody tells you "Do more and > more > of the same thing, and you will get it." What I got were more and more > experiences, and then those experiences demanded permanence -- and there is > no > such thing as permanence. So, "The holy men are all phonies -- they are > telling > me only what is there in the books. That I can read -- 'Do the same again > and > again' -- that I don't want. Experiences I don't want. They are trying to > share > an experience with me. I'm not interested in experience. As far as > experience > goes, for me there is no difference between the religious experience and the > sex > experience or any other experience; the religious experience is like any > other > experience. I am not interested in experiencing Brahman; I am not interested > in > experiencing reality; I am not interested in experiencing truth. They might > help > others; but they cannot help me. I'm not interested in doing more of the > same; > what I have done is enough. At school if you want to solve a mathematical > problem, you repeat it again and again -- you solve the mathematical > problem, > and you discover that the answer is in the problem. So, what the hell are > you > doing, trying to solve the problem? It is easier to find the answer first > instead of going through all this." > So, reluctantly, hesitatingly, unwilling, I went to see Ramana Maharshi. > That > fellow dragged me. He said "Go there once. Something will happen to you." He > talked about it and gave me a book, Search in Secret India by Paul Brunton, > so I > read the chapter relating to this man -- "All right, I don't mind, let me go > and > see." That man was sitting there. From his very presence I felt "What! This > man > -- how can he help me? This fellow who is reading comic strips, cutting > vegetables, playing with this, that or the other -- how can this man help > me? He > can't help me." Anyway, I sat there. Nothing happened; I looked at him, and > he > looked at me. "In his presence you feel silent, your questions disappear, > his > look changes you" -- all that remained a story, fancy stuff to me. I sat > there. > There were a lot of questions inside, silly questions -- so, "The questions > have > not disappeared. I have been sitting here for two hours, and the questions > are > still there. All right, let me ask him some questions" -- because at that > time I > very much wanted moksha. This part of my background, moksha, I wanted. "You > are > supposed to be a liberated man" -- I didn't say that. "Can you give me what > you > have?" -- I asked him this question, but that man didn't answer, so after > some > lapse of time I repeated that question -- "I am asking 'Whatever you have, > can > you give it to me?'" He said, "I can give you, but can you take it?" Boy! > For > the first time this fellow says that he has something and that I can't take > it. > Nobody before had said "I can give you," but this man said "I can give you, > but > can you take it?" Then I said to myself "If there is any individual in this > world who can take it, it is me, because I have done so much sadhana, seven > years of sadhana. He can think that I can't take it, but I can take it. If I > can't take it, who can take it?" - -- that was my frame of mind at the time > -- > you know, (Laughs) I was so confident of myself. > I didn't stay with him, I didn't read any of his books, so I asked him a few > more questions: "Can one be free sometimes and not free sometimes?" He said > "Either you are free, or you are not free at all." There was another > question > which I don't remember. He answered in a very strange way: "There are no > steps > leading you to that." But I ignored all these things. These questions didn't > matter to me -- the answers didn't interest me at all. > But this question "Can you take it?" ... "How arrogant he is!" -- that was > my > feeling. "Why can't I take it, whatever it is? What is it that he has?" -- > that > was my question, a natural question. So, the question formulated itself: > "What > is that state that all those people - - Buddha, Jesus and the whole gang -- > were > in? Ramana is in that state -- supposed to be, I don't know -- but that chap > is > like me, a human being. How is he different from me? What others say or what > he > is saying is of no importance to me; anybody can do what he is doing. What > is > there? He can't be very much different from me. He was also born from > parents. > He has his own particular ideas about the whole business. Some people say > something happened to him, but how is he different from me? What is there: > What > is that state?" -- that was my fundamental question, the basic question -- > that > went on and on and on. "I must find out what that state is. Nobody can give > that > state; I am on my own. I have to go on this uncharted sea without a compass, > without a boat, with not even a raft to take me. I am going to find out for > myself what the state is in which that man is." I wanted that very much, > otherwise I wouldn't have given my life. " > > > > >"Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg@i...> > >RamanaMaharshi > ><RamanaMaharshi> > >Re: [RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > >Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:36:40 -0300 > > > >you can find UG books freely available at www.well.com/user/jct > >i've read "mystique of enlightment" and "mind is a myth", but didnt like'm > >at all. He claims to be iluminated be he acts like an angry resented man > >who > >lost himself in the spiritual path, and instead of finding peace and > >wisdom, > >found bitterness and negativism. anyway its just my opinion and i could be > >wrong... > >PS: plus he speaks with contempt of Sri Ramana Maharshi. > > > >- > >vic w <shivaguy108@h...> > ><RamanaMaharshi> > >[RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2002 Report Share Posted April 3, 2002 Dear Gabriele Indeed he is interesting. But look at his "teaching": He claims that ALL spiritual masters are fakes, liers and frauds. He claims he ALONE has found the truth, that only HE has achieved illumination. He speaks with contempt and disguised bitterness about his past, his family, and all masters he met. Throughout his whole speech, you can sense criticism, negativism and contempt for every form of teaching, practice and faith. This is not a liberated man! This is a man enslaved by his ego, and disguising it as spiritual achievement. Pay atention to his words, he always wants something! He thinks spiritual enlightment is some material benefit that can be gained! He has the arrogance to say to Sri Ramana Maharshi: Can you GIVE ME...!! He looks for spiritual enlightment just as a pirate looks for gold and women to rape...no wonder he never found it! No wonder he sank in a pile of philosofical twists and angry denial of anything and everything! but dont believe my opinion, go check for your self! kind regards Edoardo - bhagavanramana <g.ebert <RamanaMaharshi> Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:35 AM [RamanaMaharshi] Re: U G Krishnamurti > I agree with you, Vic, that UG was arrogant himself - not only when > he met Ramana also in his later meeting with J. Krishnamurty. There > was a lack of understanding. He had the chance to meet such great > men, but he could not make use of it. It is somehow a tragedy. But it > seems not have been his way. He pushed aside everything and everyone > and somehow could do not differently as he felt he had to find out > truth for himself - and in this he is honest and clear. > > When I read about him yesterday my feelings for him were divided. He > is a very interesting guy with an interesting life and interesting > ideas. > Gabriele > > RamanaMaharshi, "vic w" <shivaguy108@h...> wrote: > > I really don't know that much about UGK - I just read the first of > Mystique > > today, but I find him interesting. You may be right about him being > angry > > and resentful, I couldn't say at the moment. But I haven't yet seen > him > > speak with contempt about Sri Ramana. The only thing I have read > is his > > meeting with Sri Ramana in which, to my mind, he freely reveals his > own lack > > of understanding. He thought Sri Ramana was being arrogant, but > that was > > only because at the time he didn't understand him. Clearly Sri > Ramana's > > answer could come across as being arrogant, but a) his first answer > was > > 'silence' (as usual) and b) UGK was being very arrogant and no > doubt > > deserved an arrogant reply. > > > > For those who don't know what this refers to I have copied the > account of > > the meeting below - I think it took place around 1939. > > > > From Mystique of Enlightenment > > > > "Then somebody came along, and we were discussing all these things. > He found > > me > > practically an atheist (but not a practicing atheist), skeptical of > > everything, > > heretical down to my boots. He said "There is one man here, > somewhere in > > Madras > > at Tiruvannamalai, called Ramana Maharshi. Come on, let's go and > see that > > man. > > Here is a living human embodiment of the Hindu tradition." > > I didn't want to see any holy man. If you have seen one, you have > seen them > > all. > > I never shopped around, went around searching for people, sitting > at the > > feet of > > the masters, learning something; because everybody tells you "Do > more and > > more > > of the same thing, and you will get it." What I got were more and > more > > experiences, and then those experiences demanded permanence -- and > there is > > no > > such thing as permanence. So, "The holy men are all phonies -- they > are > > telling > > me only what is there in the books. That I can read -- 'Do the same > again > > and > > again' -- that I don't want. Experiences I don't want. They are > trying to > > share > > an experience with me. I'm not interested in experience. As far as > > experience > > goes, for me there is no difference between the religious > experience and the > > sex > > experience or any other experience; the religious experience is > like any > > other > > experience. I am not interested in experiencing Brahman; I am not > interested > > in > > experiencing reality; I am not interested in experiencing truth. > They might > > help > > others; but they cannot help me. I'm not interested in doing more > of the > > same; > > what I have done is enough. At school if you want to solve a > mathematical > > problem, you repeat it again and again -- you solve the > mathematical > > problem, > > and you discover that the answer is in the problem. So, what the > hell are > > you > > doing, trying to solve the problem? It is easier to find the answer > first > > instead of going through all this." > > So, reluctantly, hesitatingly, unwilling, I went to see Ramana > Maharshi. > > That > > fellow dragged me. He said "Go there once. Something will happen to > you." He > > talked about it and gave me a book, Search in Secret India by Paul > Brunton, > > so I > > read the chapter relating to this man -- "All right, I don't mind, > let me go > > and > > see." That man was sitting there. From his very presence I > felt "What! This > > man > > -- how can he help me? This fellow who is reading comic strips, > cutting > > vegetables, playing with this, that or the other -- how can this > man help > > me? He > > can't help me." Anyway, I sat there. Nothing happened; I looked at > him, and > > he > > looked at me. "In his presence you feel silent, your questions > disappear, > > his > > look changes you" -- all that remained a story, fancy stuff to me. > I sat > > there. > > There were a lot of questions inside, silly questions -- so, "The > questions > > have > > not disappeared. I have been sitting here for two hours, and the > questions > > are > > still there. All right, let me ask him some questions" -- because > at that > > time I > > very much wanted moksha. This part of my background, moksha, I > wanted. "You > > are > > supposed to be a liberated man" -- I didn't say that. "Can you give > me what > > you > > have?" -- I asked him this question, but that man didn't answer, so > after > > some > > lapse of time I repeated that question -- "I am asking 'Whatever > you have, > > can > > you give it to me?'" He said, "I can give you, but can you take > it?" Boy! > > For > > the first time this fellow says that he has something and that I > can't take > > it. > > Nobody before had said "I can give you," but this man said "I can > give you, > > but > > can you take it?" Then I said to myself "If there is any individual > in this > > world who can take it, it is me, because I have done so much > sadhana, seven > > years of sadhana. He can think that I can't take it, but I can take > it. If I > > can't take it, who can take it?" - -- that was my frame of mind at > the time > > -- > > you know, (Laughs) I was so confident of myself. > > I didn't stay with him, I didn't read any of his books, so I asked > him a few > > more questions: "Can one be free sometimes and not free sometimes?" > He said > > "Either you are free, or you are not free at all." There was > another > > question > > which I don't remember. He answered in a very strange way: "There > are no > > steps > > leading you to that." But I ignored all these things. These > questions didn't > > matter to me -- the answers didn't interest me at all. > > But this question "Can you take it?" ... "How arrogant he is!" -- > that was > > my > > feeling. "Why can't I take it, whatever it is? What is it that he > has?" -- > > that > > was my question, a natural question. So, the question formulated > itself: > > "What > > is that state that all those people - - Buddha, Jesus and the whole > gang -- > > were > > in? Ramana is in that state -- supposed to be, I don't know -- but > that chap > > is > > like me, a human being. How is he different from me? What others > say or what > > he > > is saying is of no importance to me; anybody can do what he is > doing. What > > is > > there? He can't be very much different from me. He was also born > from > > parents. > > He has his own particular ideas about the whole business. Some > people say > > something happened to him, but how is he different from me? What is > there: > > What > > is that state?" -- that was my fundamental question, the basic > question -- > > that > > went on and on and on. "I must find out what that state is. Nobody > can give > > that > > state; I am on my own. I have to go on this uncharted sea without a > compass, > > without a boat, with not even a raft to take me. I am going to find > out for > > myself what the state is in which that man is." I wanted that very > much, > > otherwise I wouldn't have given my life. " > > > > > > > > >"Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg@i...> > > >RamanaMaharshi > > ><RamanaMaharshi> > > >Re: [RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > >Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:36:40 -0300 > > > > > >you can find UG books freely available at www.well.com/user/jct > > >i've read "mystique of enlightment" and "mind is a myth", but > didnt like'm > > >at all. He claims to be iluminated be he acts like an angry > resented man > > >who > > >lost himself in the spiritual path, and instead of finding peace > and > > >wisdom, > > >found bitterness and negativism. anyway its just my opinion and i > could be > > >wrong... > > >PS: plus he speaks with contempt of Sri Ramana Maharshi. > > > > > >- > > >vic w <shivaguy108@h...> > > ><RamanaMaharshi> > > >[RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi- > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > /community/RamanaMaharshi > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2002 Report Share Posted April 4, 2002 Dear Eduardo, I have only read some pages about UGs life and teaching - I found it interesting but not agreeable in every point and then I have lost interest in reading more. But I don't see him in such a negative as you do. I think in refusing every master and teaching he did something like what is in Zen "killing the Buddha". It gives not always such a good feeling in reading his statements. I don't like this negatives very much. But nevertheless I think he has followed his unique way and has come to a certain insight. One should in his case more look behind the words, not glue to much on the words - that's only my personal impression. - But we need not discuss UG here as this list is dedicated to Ramana Maharshi who is without comparison. What you write about vichara: are we ripe souls, are we strong enough in our concentration? Should we first do Hatha and breath control? I can't find such general recommendations in the teaching of Ramana - not this way. Surely Hatha yoga, breath control, Tai Chi.... can do a lot for us - it is good to do such things if one feels the need (I do sometimes Tai Chi) but vichara is vichara - also when the mind is weak one can start to practice it and step by step it will become stronger and the mind turns more and more to it. The grace of the Guru will do everything for us when we are open. In Sri Ramana Gabriele RamanaMaharshi, "Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg@i...> wrote: > Dear Gabriele > Indeed he is interesting. > But look at his "teaching": > He claims that ALL spiritual masters are fakes, liers and frauds. He claims > he ALONE has found the truth, that only HE has achieved illumination. He > speaks with contempt and disguised bitterness about his past, his family, > and all masters he met. Throughout his whole speech, you can sense > criticism, negativism and contempt for every form of teaching, practice and > faith. This is not a liberated man! This is a man enslaved by his ego, and > disguising it as spiritual achievement. Pay atention to his words, he always > wants something! He thinks spiritual enlightment is some material benefit > that can be gained! He has the arrogance to say to Sri Ramana Maharshi: Can > you GIVE ME...!! He looks for spiritual enlightment just as a pirate looks > for gold and women to rape...no wonder he never found it! No wonder he sank > in a pile of philosofical twists and angry denial of anything and > everything! > but dont believe my opinion, go check for your self! > kind regards > Edoardo > > - > bhagavanramana <g.ebert@g...> > <RamanaMaharshi> > Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:35 AM > [RamanaMaharshi] Re: U G Krishnamurti > > > > I agree with you, Vic, that UG was arrogant himself - not only when > > he met Ramana also in his later meeting with J. Krishnamurty. There > > was a lack of understanding. He had the chance to meet such great > > men, but he could not make use of it. It is somehow a tragedy. But it > > seems not have been his way. He pushed aside everything and everyone > > and somehow could do not differently as he felt he had to find out > > truth for himself - and in this he is honest and clear. > > > > When I read about him yesterday my feelings for him were divided. He > > is a very interesting guy with an interesting life and interesting > > ideas. > > Gabriele > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "vic w" <shivaguy108@h...> wrote: > > > I really don't know that much about UGK - I just read the first of > > Mystique > > > today, but I find him interesting. You may be right about him being > > angry > > > and resentful, I couldn't say at the moment. But I haven't yet seen > > him > > > speak with contempt about Sri Ramana. The only thing I have read > > is his > > > meeting with Sri Ramana in which, to my mind, he freely reveals his > > own lack > > > of understanding. He thought Sri Ramana was being arrogant, but > > that was > > > only because at the time he didn't understand him. Clearly Sri > > Ramana's > > > answer could come across as being arrogant, but a) his first answer > > was > > > 'silence' (as usual) and b) UGK was being very arrogant and no > > doubt > > > deserved an arrogant reply. > > > > > > For those who don't know what this refers to I have copied the > > account of > > > the meeting below - I think it took place around 1939. > > > > > > From Mystique of Enlightenment > > > > > > "Then somebody came along, and we were discussing all these things. > > He found > > > me > > > practically an atheist (but not a practicing atheist), skeptical of > > > everything, > > > heretical down to my boots. He said "There is one man here, > > somewhere in > > > Madras > > > at Tiruvannamalai, called Ramana Maharshi. Come on, let's go and > > see that > > > man. > > > Here is a living human embodiment of the Hindu tradition." > > > I didn't want to see any holy man. If you have seen one, you have > > seen them > > > all. > > > I never shopped around, went around searching for people, sitting > > at the > > > feet of > > > the masters, learning something; because everybody tells you "Do > > more and > > > more > > > of the same thing, and you will get it." What I got were more and > > more > > > experiences, and then those experiences demanded permanence -- and > > there is > > > no > > > such thing as permanence. So, "The holy men are all phonies -- they > > are > > > telling > > > me only what is there in the books. That I can read -- 'Do the same > > again > > > and > > > again' -- that I don't want. Experiences I don't want. They are > > trying to > > > share > > > an experience with me. I'm not interested in experience. As far as > > > experience > > > goes, for me there is no difference between the religious > > experience and the > > > sex > > > experience or any other experience; the religious experience is > > like any > > > other > > > experience. I am not interested in experiencing Brahman; I am not > > interested > > > in > > > experiencing reality; I am not interested in experiencing truth. > > They might > > > help > > > others; but they cannot help me. I'm not interested in doing more > > of the > > > same; > > > what I have done is enough. At school if you want to solve a > > mathematical > > > problem, you repeat it again and again -- you solve the > > mathematical > > > problem, > > > and you discover that the answer is in the problem. So, what the > > hell are > > > you > > > doing, trying to solve the problem? It is easier to find the answer > > first > > > instead of going through all this." > > > So, reluctantly, hesitatingly, unwilling, I went to see Ramana > > Maharshi. > > > That > > > fellow dragged me. He said "Go there once. Something will happen to > > you." He > > > talked about it and gave me a book, Search in Secret India by Paul > > Brunton, > > > so I > > > read the chapter relating to this man -- "All right, I don't mind, > > let me go > > > and > > > see." That man was sitting there. From his very presence I > > felt "What! This > > > man > > > -- how can he help me? This fellow who is reading comic strips, > > cutting > > > vegetables, playing with this, that or the other -- how can this > > man help > > > me? He > > > can't help me." Anyway, I sat there. Nothing happened; I looked at > > him, and > > > he > > > looked at me. "In his presence you feel silent, your questions > > disappear, > > > his > > > look changes you" -- all that remained a story, fancy stuff to me. > > I sat > > > there. > > > There were a lot of questions inside, silly questions -- so, "The > > questions > > > have > > > not disappeared. I have been sitting here for two hours, and the > > questions > > > are > > > still there. All right, let me ask him some questions" -- because > > at that > > > time I > > > very much wanted moksha. This part of my background, moksha, I > > wanted. "You > > > are > > > supposed to be a liberated man" -- I didn't say that. "Can you give > > me what > > > you > > > have?" -- I asked him this question, but that man didn't answer, so > > after > > > some > > > lapse of time I repeated that question -- "I am asking 'Whatever > > you have, > > > can > > > you give it to me?'" He said, "I can give you, but can you take > > it?" Boy! > > > For > > > the first time this fellow says that he has something and that I > > can't take > > > it. > > > Nobody before had said "I can give you," but this man said "I can > > give you, > > > but > > > can you take it?" Then I said to myself "If there is any individual > > in this > > > world who can take it, it is me, because I have done so much > > sadhana, seven > > > years of sadhana. He can think that I can't take it, but I can take > > it. If I > > > can't take it, who can take it?" - -- that was my frame of mind at > > the time > > > -- > > > you know, (Laughs) I was so confident of myself. > > > I didn't stay with him, I didn't read any of his books, so I asked > > him a few > > > more questions: "Can one be free sometimes and not free sometimes?" > > He said > > > "Either you are free, or you are not free at all." There was > > another > > > question > > > which I don't remember. He answered in a very strange way: "There > > are no > > > steps > > > leading you to that." But I ignored all these things. These > > questions didn't > > > matter to me -- the answers didn't interest me at all. > > > But this question "Can you take it?" ... "How arrogant he is!" - - > > that was > > > my > > > feeling. "Why can't I take it, whatever it is? What is it that he > > has?" -- > > > that > > > was my question, a natural question. So, the question formulated > > itself: > > > "What > > > is that state that all those people - - Buddha, Jesus and the whole > > gang -- > > > were > > > in? Ramana is in that state -- supposed to be, I don't know -- but > > that chap > > > is > > > like me, a human being. How is he different from me? What others > > say or what > > > he > > > is saying is of no importance to me; anybody can do what he is > > doing. What > > > is > > > there? He can't be very much different from me. He was also born > > from > > > parents. > > > He has his own particular ideas about the whole business. Some > > people say > > > something happened to him, but how is he different from me? What is > > there: > > > What > > > is that state?" -- that was my fundamental question, the basic > > question -- > > > that > > > went on and on and on. "I must find out what that state is. Nobody > > can give > > > that > > > state; I am on my own. I have to go on this uncharted sea without a > > compass, > > > without a boat, with not even a raft to take me. I am going to find > > out for > > > myself what the state is in which that man is." I wanted that very > > much, > > > otherwise I wouldn't have given my life. " > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg@i...> > > > >RamanaMaharshi > > > ><RamanaMaharshi> > > > >Re: [RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > > >Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:36:40 -0300 > > > > > > > >you can find UG books freely available at www.well.com/user/jct > > > >i've read "mystique of enlightment" and "mind is a myth", but > > didnt like'm > > > >at all. He claims to be iluminated be he acts like an angry > > resented man > > > >who > > > >lost himself in the spiritual path, and instead of finding peace > > and > > > >wisdom, > > > >found bitterness and negativism. anyway its just my opinion and i > > could be > > > >wrong... > > > >PS: plus he speaks with contempt of Sri Ramana Maharshi. > > > > > > > >- > > > >vic w <shivaguy108@h...> > > > ><RamanaMaharshi> > > > >[RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o... > > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > > Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o... > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > /community/RamanaMaharshi > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2002 Report Share Posted April 4, 2002 Dear Gabriele, Perhaps i have a strong opinion about UG that may not be totaly accurate...anyway, i try not to get very attached to my opinions, so is possible that im wrong (i've been so many times before...hehe) So lets just let it be...;-)) About Vichara, i totaly agree with you that there are no recomendations exactly like this, but Sri Ramana does talk about others forms of practice that might suit some individuals who are not ready for intense Vichara (japa, yoga, devotion,etc) Anyway, i think these other practices should not replace Vichara, but act as an aid in the practice of self enquiry. Take my personal experience for example: I started trying Vichara after reading Mouni Sadhu's "In days of great peace". you can guess i had a hard time concentrating for a few seconds: my body would start itching, i felt hot or cold, i had physical disconfort in every different way, my mind, on the other side, would just refuse to stay focused, and even when it did, i felt i was only in the surface of perception, and had no real insight or peace, i was not penetrating deeply on my vichara, to use Sri Ramana's words, I lacked "one-pointedness of mind"...then i started Hatha yoga lessons with a great teacher (this is important, it has to be a good teacher) and my entire practice developed diferently. I felt a tangible increase in my atention, it became much easier to practice Vichara and i felt much more grounded and perceptive, both during practice and afterwards...physical disconfort diminished a lot, my mind became more stable... What im trying to say is that, perhaps, it may be useful to do other practices along with Vichara, IF ONE is feeling too much difficulty in concentrating and keeping concentrated... I totaly agree with you that Vichara has no substitute, and must be practiced every day... i just think that other practices, combined with Vichara, such as mentioned before could help some people more than Vichara alone. I also practice Dream Yoga, and found this to be a great path for increasing awareness. Also agree with you that the Grace of the Guru is the most important factor, and for that, one must be an honest, moral individual, and cultivate devotion and compassion. I hope these long emails i tend to write do not sound too boring! Forgive me if they do! As i said before, and repeat often, its just my opinion, PLEASE dont give it too much credit!! kind regards Edoardo - gabriele_ebert <g.ebert <RamanaMaharshi> Thursday, April 04, 2002 12:08 PM [RamanaMaharshi] Re: U G Krishnamurti > Dear Eduardo, > I have only read some pages about UGs life and teaching - I found it > interesting but not agreeable in every point and then I have lost > interest in reading more. But I don't see him in such a negative as > you do. I think in refusing every master and teaching he did > something like what is in Zen "killing the Buddha". It gives not > always such a good feeling in reading his statements. I don't like > this negatives very much. But nevertheless I think he has followed > his unique way and has come to a certain insight. One should in his > case more look behind the words, not glue to much on the words - > that's only my personal impression. - But we need not discuss UG here > as this list is dedicated to Ramana Maharshi who is without > comparison. > > What you write about vichara: are we ripe souls, are we strong enough > in our concentration? Should we first do Hatha and breath control? I > can't find such general recommendations in the teaching of Ramana - > not this way. Surely Hatha yoga, breath control, Tai Chi.... can do a > lot for us - it is good to do such things if one feels the need (I do > sometimes Tai Chi) but vichara is vichara - also when the mind is > weak one can start to practice it and step by step it will become > stronger and the mind turns more and more to it. The grace of the > Guru will do everything for us when we are open. > In Sri Ramana > Gabriele > > RamanaMaharshi, "Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg@i...> wrote: > > Dear Gabriele > > Indeed he is interesting. > > But look at his "teaching": > > He claims that ALL spiritual masters are fakes, liers and frauds. > He claims > > he ALONE has found the truth, that only HE has achieved > illumination. He > > speaks with contempt and disguised bitterness about his past, his > family, > > and all masters he met. Throughout his whole speech, you can sense > > criticism, negativism and contempt for every form of teaching, > practice and > > faith. This is not a liberated man! This is a man enslaved by his > ego, and > > disguising it as spiritual achievement. Pay atention to his words, > he always > > wants something! He thinks spiritual enlightment is some material > benefit > > that can be gained! He has the arrogance to say to Sri Ramana > Maharshi: Can > > you GIVE ME...!! He looks for spiritual enlightment just as a > pirate looks > > for gold and women to rape...no wonder he never found it! No wonder > he sank > > in a pile of philosofical twists and angry denial of anything and > > everything! > > but dont believe my opinion, go check for your self! > > kind regards > > Edoardo > > > > - > > bhagavanramana <g.ebert@g...> > > <RamanaMaharshi> > > Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:35 AM > > [RamanaMaharshi] Re: U G Krishnamurti > > > > > > > I agree with you, Vic, that UG was arrogant himself - not only > when > > > he met Ramana also in his later meeting with J. Krishnamurty. > There > > > was a lack of understanding. He had the chance to meet such great > > > men, but he could not make use of it. It is somehow a tragedy. > But it > > > seems not have been his way. He pushed aside everything and > everyone > > > and somehow could do not differently as he felt he had to find out > > > truth for himself - and in this he is honest and clear. > > > > > > When I read about him yesterday my feelings for him were > divided. He > > > is a very interesting guy with an interesting life and interesting > > > ideas. > > > Gabriele > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "vic w" <shivaguy108@h...> wrote: > > > > I really don't know that much about UGK - I just read the first > of > > > Mystique > > > > today, but I find him interesting. You may be right about him > being > > > angry > > > > and resentful, I couldn't say at the moment. But I haven't yet > seen > > > him > > > > speak with contempt about Sri Ramana. The only thing I have > read > > > is his > > > > meeting with Sri Ramana in which, to my mind, he freely reveals > his > > > own lack > > > > of understanding. He thought Sri Ramana was being arrogant, but > > > that was > > > > only because at the time he didn't understand him. Clearly Sri > > > Ramana's > > > > answer could come across as being arrogant, but a) his first > answer > > > was > > > > 'silence' (as usual) and b) UGK was being very arrogant and no > > > doubt > > > > deserved an arrogant reply. > > > > > > > > For those who don't know what this refers to I have copied the > > > account of > > > > the meeting below - I think it took place around 1939. > > > > > > > > From Mystique of Enlightenment > > > > > > > > "Then somebody came along, and we were discussing all these > things. > > > He found > > > > me > > > > practically an atheist (but not a practicing atheist), > skeptical of > > > > everything, > > > > heretical down to my boots. He said "There is one man here, > > > somewhere in > > > > Madras > > > > at Tiruvannamalai, called Ramana Maharshi. Come on, let's go and > > > see that > > > > man. > > > > Here is a living human embodiment of the Hindu tradition." > > > > I didn't want to see any holy man. If you have seen one, you > have > > > seen them > > > > all. > > > > I never shopped around, went around searching for people, > sitting > > > at the > > > > feet of > > > > the masters, learning something; because everybody tells you "Do > > > more and > > > > more > > > > of the same thing, and you will get it." What I got were more > and > > > more > > > > experiences, and then those experiences demanded permanence -- > and > > > there is > > > > no > > > > such thing as permanence. So, "The holy men are all phonies -- > they > > > are > > > > telling > > > > me only what is there in the books. That I can read -- 'Do the > same > > > again > > > > and > > > > again' -- that I don't want. Experiences I don't want. They are > > > trying to > > > > share > > > > an experience with me. I'm not interested in experience. As far > as > > > > experience > > > > goes, for me there is no difference between the religious > > > experience and the > > > > sex > > > > experience or any other experience; the religious experience is > > > like any > > > > other > > > > experience. I am not interested in experiencing Brahman; I am > not > > > interested > > > > in > > > > experiencing reality; I am not interested in experiencing truth. > > > They might > > > > help > > > > others; but they cannot help me. I'm not interested in doing > more > > > of the > > > > same; > > > > what I have done is enough. At school if you want to solve a > > > mathematical > > > > problem, you repeat it again and again -- you solve the > > > mathematical > > > > problem, > > > > and you discover that the answer is in the problem. So, what the > > > hell are > > > > you > > > > doing, trying to solve the problem? It is easier to find the > answer > > > first > > > > instead of going through all this." > > > > So, reluctantly, hesitatingly, unwilling, I went to see Ramana > > > Maharshi. > > > > That > > > > fellow dragged me. He said "Go there once. Something will > happen to > > > you." He > > > > talked about it and gave me a book, Search in Secret India by > Paul > > > Brunton, > > > > so I > > > > read the chapter relating to this man -- "All right, I don't > mind, > > > let me go > > > > and > > > > see." That man was sitting there. From his very presence I > > > felt "What! This > > > > man > > > > -- how can he help me? This fellow who is reading comic strips, > > > cutting > > > > vegetables, playing with this, that or the other -- how can this > > > man help > > > > me? He > > > > can't help me." Anyway, I sat there. Nothing happened; I looked > at > > > him, and > > > > he > > > > looked at me. "In his presence you feel silent, your questions > > > disappear, > > > > his > > > > look changes you" -- all that remained a story, fancy stuff to > me. > > > I sat > > > > there. > > > > There were a lot of questions inside, silly questions -- > so, "The > > > questions > > > > have > > > > not disappeared. I have been sitting here for two hours, and the > > > questions > > > > are > > > > still there. All right, let me ask him some questions" -- > because > > > at that > > > > time I > > > > very much wanted moksha. This part of my background, moksha, I > > > wanted. "You > > > > are > > > > supposed to be a liberated man" -- I didn't say that. "Can you > give > > > me what > > > > you > > > > have?" -- I asked him this question, but that man didn't > answer, so > > > after > > > > some > > > > lapse of time I repeated that question -- "I am asking 'Whatever > > > you have, > > > > can > > > > you give it to me?'" He said, "I can give you, but can you take > > > it?" Boy! > > > > For > > > > the first time this fellow says that he has something and that I > > > can't take > > > > it. > > > > Nobody before had said "I can give you," but this man said "I > can > > > give you, > > > > but > > > > can you take it?" Then I said to myself "If there is any > individual > > > in this > > > > world who can take it, it is me, because I have done so much > > > sadhana, seven > > > > years of sadhana. He can think that I can't take it, but I can > take > > > it. If I > > > > can't take it, who can take it?" - -- that was my frame of mind > at > > > the time > > > > -- > > > > you know, (Laughs) I was so confident of myself. > > > > I didn't stay with him, I didn't read any of his books, so I > asked > > > him a few > > > > more questions: "Can one be free sometimes and not free > sometimes?" > > > He said > > > > "Either you are free, or you are not free at all." There was > > > another > > > > question > > > > which I don't remember. He answered in a very strange > way: "There > > > are no > > > > steps > > > > leading you to that." But I ignored all these things. These > > > questions didn't > > > > matter to me -- the answers didn't interest me at all. > > > > But this question "Can you take it?" ... "How arrogant he is!" - > - > > > that was > > > > my > > > > feeling. "Why can't I take it, whatever it is? What is it that > he > > > has?" -- > > > > that > > > > was my question, a natural question. So, the question formulated > > > itself: > > > > "What > > > > is that state that all those people - - Buddha, Jesus and the > whole > > > gang -- > > > > were > > > > in? Ramana is in that state -- supposed to be, I don't know -- > but > > > that chap > > > > is > > > > like me, a human being. How is he different from me? What others > > > say or what > > > > he > > > > is saying is of no importance to me; anybody can do what he is > > > doing. What > > > > is > > > > there? He can't be very much different from me. He was also born > > > from > > > > parents. > > > > He has his own particular ideas about the whole business. Some > > > people say > > > > something happened to him, but how is he different from me? > What is > > > there: > > > > What > > > > is that state?" -- that was my fundamental question, the basic > > > question -- > > > > that > > > > went on and on and on. "I must find out what that state is. > Nobody > > > can give > > > > that > > > > state; I am on my own. I have to go on this uncharted sea > without a > > > compass, > > > > without a boat, with not even a raft to take me. I am going to > find > > > out for > > > > myself what the state is in which that man is." I wanted that > very > > > much, > > > > otherwise I wouldn't have given my life. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg@i...> > > > > >RamanaMaharshi > > > > ><RamanaMaharshi> > > > > >Re: [RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > > > >Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:36:40 -0300 > > > > > > > > > >you can find UG books freely available at www.well.com/user/jct > > > > >i've read "mystique of enlightment" and "mind is a myth", but > > > didnt like'm > > > > >at all. He claims to be iluminated be he acts like an angry > > > resented man > > > > >who > > > > >lost himself in the spiritual path, and instead of finding > peace > > > and > > > > >wisdom, > > > > >found bitterness and negativism. anyway its just my opinion > and i > > > could be > > > > >wrong... > > > > >PS: plus he speaks with contempt of Sri Ramana Maharshi. > > > > > > > > > >- > > > > >vic w <shivaguy108@h...> > > > > ><RamanaMaharshi> > > > > >[RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o... > > > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > > > Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > > > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o... > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > /community/RamanaMaharshi > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- > Un: RamanaMaharshi- > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > /community/RamanaMaharshi > > Your use of is subject to > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2002 Report Share Posted April 4, 2002 Dear Eduardo: U.G. bio is valuable to me because he tells of his transformation in detail. If he were not so hostile to gurus and spiritual practice he would not have shared his experience. He asked J.I Krisnamurti to tell him what he had and J.I. refused, so he left him. I generally skip his opinions about spirituality etc. The personality remains after that transformation, so said Nisargadatta, but the identification with the witness snaps. Aloha, Alton RamanaMaharshi, "Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg@i...> wrote: > Dear Gabriele, > Perhaps i have a strong opinion about UG that may not be totaly > accurate...anyway, i try not to get very attached to my opinions, so is > possible that im wrong (i've been so many times before...hehe) So lets just > let it be...;-)) > About Vichara, i totaly agree with you that there are no recomendations > exactly like this, but Sri Ramana does talk about others forms of practice > that might suit some individuals who are not ready for intense Vichara > (japa, yoga, devotion,etc) > Anyway, i think these other practices should not replace Vichara, but act as > an aid in the practice of self enquiry. Take my personal experience for > example: I started trying Vichara after reading Mouni Sadhu's "In days of > great peace". you can guess i had a hard time concentrating for a few > seconds: my body would start itching, i felt hot or cold, i had physical > disconfort in every different way, my mind, on the other side, would just > refuse to stay focused, and even when it did, i felt i was only in the > surface of perception, and had no real insight or peace, i was not > penetrating deeply on my vichara, to use Sri Ramana's words, I lacked > "one-pointedness of mind"...then i started Hatha yoga lessons with a great > teacher (this is important, it has to be a good teacher) and my entire > practice developed diferently. I felt a tangible increase in my atention, it > became much easier to practice Vichara and i felt much more grounded and > perceptive, both during practice and afterwards...physical disconfort > diminished a lot, my mind became more stable... > What im trying to say is that, perhaps, it may be useful to do other > practices along with Vichara, IF ONE is feeling too much difficulty in > concentrating and keeping concentrated... > I totaly agree with you that Vichara has no substitute, and must be > practiced every day... i just think that other practices, combined with > Vichara, such as mentioned before could help some people more than Vichara > alone. > I also practice Dream Yoga, and found this to be a great path for increasing > awareness. > Also agree with you that the Grace of the Guru is the most important factor, > and for that, one must be an honest, moral individual, and cultivate > devotion and compassion. > I hope these long emails i tend to write do not sound too boring! Forgive me > if they do! > As i said before, and repeat often, its just my opinion, PLEASE dont give it > too much credit!! > kind regards > Edoardo > > - > gabriele_ebert <g.ebert@g...> > <RamanaMaharshi> > Thursday, April 04, 2002 12:08 PM > [RamanaMaharshi] Re: U G Krishnamurti > > > > Dear Eduardo, > > I have only read some pages about UGs life and teaching - I found it > > interesting but not agreeable in every point and then I have lost > > interest in reading more. But I don't see him in such a negative as > > you do. I think in refusing every master and teaching he did > > something like what is in Zen "killing the Buddha". It gives not > > always such a good feeling in reading his statements. I don't like > > this negatives very much. But nevertheless I think he has followed > > his unique way and has come to a certain insight. One should in his > > case more look behind the words, not glue to much on the words - > > that's only my personal impression. - But we need not discuss UG here > > as this list is dedicated to Ramana Maharshi who is without > > comparison. > > > > What you write about vichara: are we ripe souls, are we strong enough > > in our concentration? Should we first do Hatha and breath control? I > > can't find such general recommendations in the teaching of Ramana - > > not this way. Surely Hatha yoga, breath control, Tai Chi.... can do a > > lot for us - it is good to do such things if one feels the need (I do > > sometimes Tai Chi) but vichara is vichara - also when the mind is > > weak one can start to practice it and step by step it will become > > stronger and the mind turns more and more to it. The grace of the > > Guru will do everything for us when we are open. > > In Sri Ramana > > Gabriele > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg@i...> wrote: > > > Dear Gabriele > > > Indeed he is interesting. > > > But look at his "teaching": > > > He claims that ALL spiritual masters are fakes, liers and frauds. > > He claims > > > he ALONE has found the truth, that only HE has achieved > > illumination. He > > > speaks with contempt and disguised bitterness about his past, his > > family, > > > and all masters he met. Throughout his whole speech, you can sense > > > criticism, negativism and contempt for every form of teaching, > > practice and > > > faith. This is not a liberated man! This is a man enslaved by his > > ego, and > > > disguising it as spiritual achievement. Pay atention to his words, > > he always > > > wants something! He thinks spiritual enlightment is some material > > benefit > > > that can be gained! He has the arrogance to say to Sri Ramana > > Maharshi: Can > > > you GIVE ME...!! He looks for spiritual enlightment just as a > > pirate looks > > > for gold and women to rape...no wonder he never found it! No wonder > > he sank > > > in a pile of philosofical twists and angry denial of anything and > > > everything! > > > but dont believe my opinion, go check for your self! > > > kind regards > > > Edoardo > > > > > > - > > > bhagavanramana <g.ebert@g...> > > > <RamanaMaharshi> > > > Wednesday, April 03, 2002 4:35 AM > > > [RamanaMaharshi] Re: U G Krishnamurti > > > > > > > > > > I agree with you, Vic, that UG was arrogant himself - not only > > when > > > > he met Ramana also in his later meeting with J. Krishnamurty. > > There > > > > was a lack of understanding. He had the chance to meet such great > > > > men, but he could not make use of it. It is somehow a tragedy. > > But it > > > > seems not have been his way. He pushed aside everything and > > everyone > > > > and somehow could do not differently as he felt he had to find out > > > > truth for himself - and in this he is honest and clear. > > > > > > > > When I read about him yesterday my feelings for him were > > divided. He > > > > is a very interesting guy with an interesting life and interesting > > > > ideas. > > > > Gabriele > > > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "vic w" <shivaguy108@h...> wrote: > > > > > I really don't know that much about UGK - I just read the first > > of > > > > Mystique > > > > > today, but I find him interesting. You may be right about him > > being > > > > angry > > > > > and resentful, I couldn't say at the moment. But I haven't yet > > seen > > > > him > > > > > speak with contempt about Sri Ramana. The only thing I have > > read > > > > is his > > > > > meeting with Sri Ramana in which, to my mind, he freely reveals > > his > > > > own lack > > > > > of understanding. He thought Sri Ramana was being arrogant, but > > > > that was > > > > > only because at the time he didn't understand him. Clearly Sri > > > > Ramana's > > > > > answer could come across as being arrogant, but a) his first > > answer > > > > was > > > > > 'silence' (as usual) and b) UGK was being very arrogant and no > > > > doubt > > > > > deserved an arrogant reply. > > > > > > > > > > For those who don't know what this refers to I have copied the > > > > account of > > > > > the meeting below - I think it took place around 1939. > > > > > > > > > > From Mystique of Enlightenment > > > > > > > > > > "Then somebody came along, and we were discussing all these > > things. > > > > He found > > > > > me > > > > > practically an atheist (but not a practicing atheist), > > skeptical of > > > > > everything, > > > > > heretical down to my boots. He said "There is one man here, > > > > somewhere in > > > > > Madras > > > > > at Tiruvannamalai, called Ramana Maharshi. Come on, let's go and > > > > see that > > > > > man. > > > > > Here is a living human embodiment of the Hindu tradition." > > > > > I didn't want to see any holy man. If you have seen one, you > > have > > > > seen them > > > > > all. > > > > > I never shopped around, went around searching for people, > > sitting > > > > at the > > > > > feet of > > > > > the masters, learning something; because everybody tells you "Do > > > > more and > > > > > more > > > > > of the same thing, and you will get it." What I got were more > > and > > > > more > > > > > experiences, and then those experiences demanded permanence -- > > and > > > > there is > > > > > no > > > > > such thing as permanence. So, "The holy men are all phonies -- > > they > > > > are > > > > > telling > > > > > me only what is there in the books. That I can read -- 'Do the > > same > > > > again > > > > > and > > > > > again' -- that I don't want. Experiences I don't want. They are > > > > trying to > > > > > share > > > > > an experience with me. I'm not interested in experience. As far > > as > > > > > experience > > > > > goes, for me there is no difference between the religious > > > > experience and the > > > > > sex > > > > > experience or any other experience; the religious experience is > > > > like any > > > > > other > > > > > experience. I am not interested in experiencing Brahman; I am > > not > > > > interested > > > > > in > > > > > experiencing reality; I am not interested in experiencing truth. > > > > They might > > > > > help > > > > > others; but they cannot help me. I'm not interested in doing > > more > > > > of the > > > > > same; > > > > > what I have done is enough. At school if you want to solve a > > > > mathematical > > > > > problem, you repeat it again and again -- you solve the > > > > mathematical > > > > > problem, > > > > > and you discover that the answer is in the problem. So, what the > > > > hell are > > > > > you > > > > > doing, trying to solve the problem? It is easier to find the > > answer > > > > first > > > > > instead of going through all this." > > > > > So, reluctantly, hesitatingly, unwilling, I went to see Ramana > > > > Maharshi. > > > > > That > > > > > fellow dragged me. He said "Go there once. Something will > > happen to > > > > you." He > > > > > talked about it and gave me a book, Search in Secret India by > > Paul > > > > Brunton, > > > > > so I > > > > > read the chapter relating to this man -- "All right, I don't > > mind, > > > > let me go > > > > > and > > > > > see." That man was sitting there. From his very presence I > > > > felt "What! This > > > > > man > > > > > -- how can he help me? This fellow who is reading comic strips, > > > > cutting > > > > > vegetables, playing with this, that or the other -- how can this > > > > man help > > > > > me? He > > > > > can't help me." Anyway, I sat there. Nothing happened; I looked > > at > > > > him, and > > > > > he > > > > > looked at me. "In his presence you feel silent, your questions > > > > disappear, > > > > > his > > > > > look changes you" -- all that remained a story, fancy stuff to > > me. > > > > I sat > > > > > there. > > > > > There were a lot of questions inside, silly questions -- > > so, "The > > > > questions > > > > > have > > > > > not disappeared. I have been sitting here for two hours, and the > > > > questions > > > > > are > > > > > still there. All right, let me ask him some questions" -- > > because > > > > at that > > > > > time I > > > > > very much wanted moksha. This part of my background, moksha, I > > > > wanted. "You > > > > > are > > > > > supposed to be a liberated man" -- I didn't say that. "Can you > > give > > > > me what > > > > > you > > > > > have?" -- I asked him this question, but that man didn't > > answer, so > > > > after > > > > > some > > > > > lapse of time I repeated that question -- "I am asking 'Whatever > > > > you have, > > > > > can > > > > > you give it to me?'" He said, "I can give you, but can you take > > > > it?" Boy! > > > > > For > > > > > the first time this fellow says that he has something and that I > > > > can't take > > > > > it. > > > > > Nobody before had said "I can give you," but this man said "I > > can > > > > give you, > > > > > but > > > > > can you take it?" Then I said to myself "If there is any > > individual > > > > in this > > > > > world who can take it, it is me, because I have done so much > > > > sadhana, seven > > > > > years of sadhana. He can think that I can't take it, but I can > > take > > > > it. If I > > > > > can't take it, who can take it?" - -- that was my frame of mind > > at > > > > the time > > > > > -- > > > > > you know, (Laughs) I was so confident of myself. > > > > > I didn't stay with him, I didn't read any of his books, so I > > asked > > > > him a few > > > > > more questions: "Can one be free sometimes and not free > > sometimes?" > > > > He said > > > > > "Either you are free, or you are not free at all." There was > > > > another > > > > > question > > > > > which I don't remember. He answered in a very strange > > way: "There > > > > are no > > > > > steps > > > > > leading you to that." But I ignored all these things. These > > > > questions didn't > > > > > matter to me -- the answers didn't interest me at all. > > > > > But this question "Can you take it?" ... "How arrogant he is!" - > > - > > > > that was > > > > > my > > > > > feeling. "Why can't I take it, whatever it is? What is it that > > he > > > > has?" -- > > > > > that > > > > > was my question, a natural question. So, the question formulated > > > > itself: > > > > > "What > > > > > is that state that all those people - - Buddha, Jesus and the > > whole > > > > gang -- > > > > > were > > > > > in? Ramana is in that state -- supposed to be, I don't know -- > > but > > > > that chap > > > > > is > > > > > like me, a human being. How is he different from me? What others > > > > say or what > > > > > he > > > > > is saying is of no importance to me; anybody can do what he is > > > > doing. What > > > > > is > > > > > there? He can't be very much different from me. He was also born > > > > from > > > > > parents. > > > > > He has his own particular ideas about the whole business. Some > > > > people say > > > > > something happened to him, but how is he different from me? > > What is > > > > there: > > > > > What > > > > > is that state?" -- that was my fundamental question, the basic > > > > question -- > > > > > that > > > > > went on and on and on. "I must find out what that state is. > > Nobody > > > > can give > > > > > that > > > > > state; I am on my own. I have to go on this uncharted sea > > without a > > > > compass, > > > > > without a boat, with not even a raft to take me. I am going to > > find > > > > out for > > > > > myself what the state is in which that man is." I wanted that > > very > > > > much, > > > > > otherwise I wouldn't have given my life. " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >"Edoardo Gonzales" <edoardosg@i...> > > > > > >RamanaMaharshi > > > > > ><RamanaMaharshi> > > > > > >Re: [RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > > > > >Tue, 2 Apr 2002 18:36:40 -0300 > > > > > > > > > > > >you can find UG books freely available at www.well.com/user/jct > > > > > >i've read "mystique of enlightment" and "mind is a myth", but > > > > didnt like'm > > > > > >at all. He claims to be iluminated be he acts like an angry > > > > resented man > > > > > >who > > > > > >lost himself in the spiritual path, and instead of finding > > peace > > > > and > > > > > >wisdom, > > > > > >found bitterness and negativism. anyway its just my opinion > > and i > > > > could be > > > > > >wrong... > > > > > >PS: plus he speaks with contempt of Sri Ramana Maharshi. > > > > > > > > > > > >- > > > > > >vic w <shivaguy108@h...> > > > > > ><RamanaMaharshi> > > > > > >[RamanaMaharshi] U G Krishnamurti > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at > > > > http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o... > > > > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > > > > Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > > > > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o... > > > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > > /community/RamanaMaharshi > > > > > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o... > > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > > Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o... > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > /community/RamanaMaharshi > > > > Your use of is subject to > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 4, 2002 Report Share Posted April 4, 2002 Dear Edoardo, thank you for the long mail and that you have described your approach to vichara. I agree in full that most people need something in addition to develop one-pointedness of the mind. In my case it was a period of hard Zen training for some years and until today I come back to what I have learned there. Without that I would not have been able to understand at all what vichara means. But when vichara once has been started it has somewhat its own power to draw the mind back to its source. In HIM Gabriele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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