Questions about an experience I had

[Guest guest]

About forty year ago, before I had any Eastern type spiritual teachings, I had

this experience one night when I woke up. Time disappeared.

I got very frightened and when time came back I was so scared that I had to go

into my father's bed. I had not read, the auto biography of a Yogi yet.

 

My question is: Was this a psychotic episode or an experience of the self?

Another question: If someone has this kind of experience or a similar one,

without any previous spiritual teachings and has not come from a culture that

honors this kind of experience, will they too become frightened by it.

 

Thanks in advance for your answers,

Aloha,

I'M aka Alton

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello:

 

Why do you suggest only two options for this experience? Maybe there was

another cause.

Regarding these experience, people have speculated that if Ramana were living

in the West when he was going through his sadhana and was totally unresponsive

to what was happening around him, he would have been place in an asylum and

medicated because we have no model here for mystical experience.

I've read speculation that a percentage of people who are judged to be

schitzophrenic

are actually experience mystical phenomena and are then drugged out of the

experience.

I think we in the West are still in the dark ages when it comes to mystical and

spiritual

experience.

 

Mark

 

 

 

 

 

About forty year ago, before I had any Eastern type spiritual teachings, I had

this

experience one night when I woke up. Time disappeared.

I got very frightened and when time came back I was so scared that I had to go

into

my father's bed. I had not read, the auto biography of a Yogi yet.

 

My question is: Was this a psychotic episode or an experience of the self?

Another question: If someone has this kind of experience or a similar one,

without

any previous spiritual teachings and has not come from a culture that honors

this

kind of experience, will they too become frightened by it.

 

Thanks in advance for your answers,

Aloha,

I'M aka Alton

[Guest guest]

Dear I'M (whose body/mind/ego/world is sometimes known as Alton),

 

Talking to other seekers at SAT I have found a number of them who

report experiences in childhood that they never forgot, and that

later in their life turned them in a spiritual direction.

 

I did not have these myself in childhood, only much later in life,

once I had actually started to practice and deepen. I had insights

before. But not experiences.

 

One thing that I have noticed in meditation/inquiry - occasionally

when I take up the inquiry I "forget" to take up my own (ego) idea of

who I am (you know, this bounded person, identified with this and

that, doing things, going some place, with yet another story, sitting

here with this pain in the body). And the inquiry is so much vaster.

 

These meditations are different. You know this at the time.

They make such an impression on you that you never forget the

experience, as is the case with your experience.

 

Ramana talked about watching ego rise when you awake.

 

I think you woke up and forget to take up you ego-idea. WE know that

the ego-idea is not active during deep sleep (since there no world

then). You just did not "activate" it.

 

I also think that you are blessed to be touched by grace when so

young. And knowing what you know, having experienced what you

experienced, you continue to be drawn deeper. More blessings.

 

My own sense of being blessed by grace intensifies my desire for

liberation, to know the Truth, to be the Truth. This intensified

desire helps keep the energy for practice going.

 

Thank you for sharing this experience and questions with the group.

 

We are Not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, "I'M" <leenalton@h...> wrote:

> About forty year ago, before I had any Eastern type spiritual

teachings, I had this experience one night when I woke up. Time

disappeared.

> I got very frightened and when time came back I was so scared that

I had to go into my father's bed. I had not read, the auto biography

of a Yogi yet.

>

> My question is: Was this a psychotic episode or an experience of

the self?

> Another question: If someone has this kind of experience or a

similar one, without any previous spiritual teachings and has not

come from a culture that honors this kind of experience, will they

too become frightened by it.

>

> Thanks in advance for your answers,

> Aloha,

> I'M aka Alton

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Mark and Richard and anyone else who may respond.

 

Thanks so much for your responses and elaborating on the aforesaid

experience.

I too am interested in anything that will awaken me to the eternal

unconditional state. It's not that I am suffering so much now like I

have in the past, its just that this paradise that I am so fortunate

to experience is going to end with a bang. Also, I see so many in

this world suffering that I feel it too. I have been convinced

beyond a doubt that "desires that don't subside on satisfaction are

self contradictory and incapable of satifaction". I still have as few

of them left.

 

Aloha,

I'M aka Alton

[Guest guest]

Dear Viorica and everyone:

The sage said, "No amount of meditation will be enough. You need a

firm conviction. All there is, is a silent mind." These are not exact

quotes. I don't as yet have that silent mind, but I sure have the

rirm conviction. It's like I believed these teachings before I came

upon them. I remembered being on the side of no free will, many years

before I learned that my two teachers held the same view.

 

Aloha,

Alton

 

 

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, "viorica_weissman"

<viorica_weissman> wrote:

> dear Alton,

> just wondering if you really need somebody else's descriptions

> about the state of Self-realization .

> v.

[Guest guest]

Alton,

 

It is your fate to have free will. You can choose to practice.

 

The mind becomes silent when the misidentification to the

body/world/ego/mind is resolved. And it must be resolved entirely.

 

This silence of mind is beyond the mere quiet mind. From the quiet

mind, one can still inquire, "From whom is the quiet?" In this

silence of mind, there is no second.

 

On the other hand, if it is yours to surrender to your fate, then

also surrender your ego and sense of doer, and surrender them

entirely. Surrender your doubts and your striving.

 

For me, it is to keep the inquiry going. This last year of

negation/discrimination has brought me to a deeper understanding that

whoever I am, I will NOT find it within the known. This deeper

knowledge drives the mind within and the inquiry more strongly

towards the Knower.

 

We are all blessed. The Truth is who we are.

 

 

We are Not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> wrote:

> Dear Viorica and everyone:

> The sage said, "No amount of meditation will be enough. You need a

> firm conviction. All there is, is a silent mind." These are not

exact

> quotes. I don't as yet have that silent mind, but I sure have the

> rirm conviction. It's like I believed these teachings before I came

> upon them. I remembered being on the side of no free will, many

years

> before I learned that my two teachers held the same view.

>

> Aloha,

> Alton

>

>

>

>

> RamanaMaharshi, "viorica_weissman"

> <viorica_weissman> wrote:

> > dear Alton,

> > just wondering if you really need somebody else's descriptions

> > about the state of Self-realization .

> > v.

[Guest guest]

Dear Richard:

Generally I love everything you present, but your statement, "It is

your fate to have free will. You can choose to practice", does not

add up to me.

 

I believe that If I had a powerful enough computer with an input of

all the events since the beginning of creation and a program to match

one would be able to predict every event in the universe. So whether

I choose to practice is not exception to the aforesaid theory. That

too is cast in stone.

 

Thanks so much for sharing again.

 

Aloha,

Alton

 

RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...>

wrote:

> Alton,

>

> It is your fate to have free will. You can choose to practice.

>

> The mind becomes silent when the misidentification to the

> body/world/ego/mind is resolved. And it must be resolved entirely.

>

> This silence of mind is beyond the mere quiet mind. From the quiet

> mind, one can still inquire, "From whom is the quiet?" In this

> silence of mind, there is no second.

>

> On the other hand, if it is yours to surrender to your fate, then

> also surrender your ego and sense of doer, and surrender them

> entirely. Surrender your doubts and your striving.

>

> For me, it is to keep the inquiry going. This last year of

> negation/discrimination has brought me to a deeper understanding

that

> whoever I am, I will NOT find it within the known. This deeper

> knowledge drives the mind within and the inquiry more strongly

> towards the Knower.

>

> We are all blessed. The Truth is who we are.

>

>

> We are Not two,

> Richard

>

> RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...>

wrote:

> > Dear Viorica and everyone:

> > The sage said, "No amount of meditation will be enough. You need

a

> > firm conviction. All there is, is a silent mind." These are not

> exact

> > quotes. I don't as yet have that silent mind, but I sure have the

> > rirm conviction. It's like I believed these teachings before I

came

> > upon them. I remembered being on the side of no free will, many

> years

> > before I learned that my two teachers held the same view.

> >

> > Aloha,

> > Alton

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > RamanaMaharshi, "viorica_weissman"

> > <viorica_weissman> wrote:

> > > dear Alton,

> > > just wondering if you really need somebody else's descriptions

> > > about the state of Self-realization .

> > > v.

[Guest guest]

Dear Alton,

 

I was a little flip in the statement, "It is your fate to have free

will." I was trying to force your mind to turn inward.

 

Great Advaita Sages like Ramana and Sankara stressed self-effort as a

key to Self-realization. Why is self-e3ffort needed if all is the

predestined result of the process of the universe?

 

Your view seems clearly one of "Destiny" or "Fate" vs. "Free Will."

Ramana repeatedly advised those who came to him with such views to

then complete the surrender to God, and surrender all sense of ego,

doership, and to surrender their stand as an individual personality.

 

My own sense of this can be stated in a poem that I heard read once,

attributed to Rumi (though I have never been able to find it).

 

"You should praise your power to make choices.

Saying 'nothing can be done' denies the gifts that have been given.

So when you praise your power to choose you will receive your reward,

Which is more power for choosing."

 

A couple of other points to consider:

 

Your stand determines your experience. Does your stand as the

product of the causal process of the universe bring you to

the "Freedom" that the sages talk about, when discussing Self-

realization? Ramana talked about "no world, no ego." Where does

this causal pattern fit in that? It seems like this view is just

another assertion of the reality and primacy of the universe and its

causation. Does this causal view form yet another way of holding to

the reality of the world (as opposed to the reality of Self, or Being-

Consciousness-Bliss?

 

Until Self-realization we respond to the world/ego/body ideas from

our mind. Self-Realizations comes as we either relinquish this

world/ego/body through surrender, or as Ramana recommended eliminate

the separate world/ego/body through the intellect's practice of

inquiry until the mind and intellect is burnt up by the inquiry, like

the stick used to stir the fire.

 

My sole purpose in bringing up any of this is to keep returning your

mind to the Self. Who knows of this universe and its causes? Is

this knower found within any of the known within the universe?

 

I knew I was just "causing trouble" with my reply to you. I was

causing this trouble for a reason though. I see an idea that you

have of who you are that can limit your spiritual depth (unless you

take in to complete surrender - and even surrender that idea). I am

suggesting that who you are is like what is stated in the Avadhut

Gita,

 

"I am without beginning and without end. Never was I bound. By

nature pure, Taintless is my Self."

 

Keep plunging inside. What is you seek is who you are. Do not be

limited, even by your ideas of who you are and what the universe is,

and how the universe works. Seek within yourself to know what is

real and to see what is just passing and changing. Know that You are

That.

 

We are Not two.

Richard

RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> wrote:

> Dear Richard:

> Generally I love everything you present, but your statement, "It is

> your fate to have free will. You can choose to practice", does not

> add up to me.

>

> I believe that If I had a powerful enough computer with an input of

> all the events since the beginning of creation and a program to

match

> one would be able to predict every event in the universe. So

whether

> I choose to practice is not exception to the aforesaid theory. That

> too is cast in stone.

>

> Thanks so much for sharing again.

>

> Aloha,

> Alton

>

> RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...>

> wrote:

> > Alton,

> >

> > It is your fate to have free will. You can choose to practice.

> >

> > The mind becomes silent when the misidentification to the

> > body/world/ego/mind is resolved. And it must be resolved

entirely.

> >

> > This silence of mind is beyond the mere quiet mind. From the

quiet

> > mind, one can still inquire, "From whom is the quiet?" In this

> > silence of mind, there is no second.

> >

> > On the other hand, if it is yours to surrender to your fate, then

> > also surrender your ego and sense of doer, and surrender them

> > entirely. Surrender your doubts and your striving.

> >

> > For me, it is to keep the inquiry going. This last year of

> > negation/discrimination has brought me to a deeper understanding

> that

> > whoever I am, I will NOT find it within the known. This deeper

> > knowledge drives the mind within and the inquiry more strongly

> > towards the Knower.

> >

> > We are all blessed. The Truth is who we are.

> >

> >

> > We are Not two,

> > Richard

> >

> > RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...>

> wrote:

> > > Dear Viorica and everyone:

> > > The sage said, "No amount of meditation will be enough. You

need

> a

> > > firm conviction. All there is, is a silent mind." These are not

> > exact

> > > quotes. I don't as yet have that silent mind, but I sure have

the

> > > rirm conviction. It's like I believed these teachings before I

> came

> > > upon them. I remembered being on the side of no free will, many

> > years

> > > before I learned that my two teachers held the same view.

> > >

> > > Aloha,

> > > Alton

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > RamanaMaharshi, "viorica_weissman"

> > > <viorica_weissman> wrote:

> > > > dear Alton,

> > > > just wondering if you really need somebody else's

descriptions

> > > > about the state of Self-realization .

> > > > v.

[Guest guest]

Dear Viorica,

 

This was still just an idea. Remember Ramana's metaphor of the

screen and the movie. The screen is not burned by the fire in the

movie. You felt like crying, you were identified with their bodies

(and probably your own). For whom was this idea?

 

Your experience of unreality seemed very real to you. Where does

this sense of reality come from? Do the things in the world call out

their reality, or is this something that arises from a much more

interior source? What is that source?

 

A favorite Ch'an poet of mine, Stone House, wrote in a poem, "The

mind creates the world." From your postings this is something that

you are starting to see for yourself. Who knows this mind?

 

I ask these questions to turn you inside, to your own Being. There is

peace, freedom, and love.

 

We are Not two,

Richard

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, "vioricail" <vioricail> wrote:

>

> dear Alton , Richard ,

>

> last year I took part in the festivity of the end of the

> school year at my son's school; I can't remember much of it

> because at a certain moment everything appeared to be

> of such unreality and absurdity that the feeling scared me

> terrible. I sit there among all those people feeling that

> I was watching an already 'cast in stone' show with all

> its characters condemned to death.

> I felt like crying and I couldn't look in those people's eyes

> all the evening ,

>

> v.

[Guest guest]

dear viorica,

 

It is wonderful to have loving friends with whom we can share our

spiritual journey.

 

Ramana guides us ... to the Truth that we are, and have always been.

 

Together, our effort can change the consciousness of the world, but

first we must find this Truth within.

 

This effort is of the greatest importance to me, in fact, what else

is there to do?

 

We are Not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote:

> dear Richard ,

>

> you are just great !

>

> Thank you again for sharing your consciousness dear friend !

>

> This list is great , isn't it ?

> Ramana guides us, you see ?

>

> bye now, I have some duties to attend to and

> this on line activity is so ..so ...distracting me

> from duties !

>

> Love you friends,

> v.

>

>

>

> > Dear Viorica,

> >

> > This was still just an idea. Remember Ramana's metaphor of the

> > screen and the movie. The screen is not burned by the fire in

the

> > movie. You felt like crying, you were identified with their

bodies

> > (and probably your own). For whom was this idea?

> >

> > Your experience of unreality seemed very real to you. Where does

> > this sense of reality come from? Do the things in the world call

out

> > their reality, or is this something that arises from a much more

> > interior source? What is that source?

> >

> > A favorite Ch'an poet of mine, Stone House, wrote in a poem, "The

> > mind creates the world." From your postings this is something

that

> > you are starting to see for yourself. Who knows this mind?

> >

> > I ask these questions to turn you inside, to your own Being.

There is

> > peace, freedom, and love.

> >

> > We are Not two,

> > Richard

> >

> >

> > RamanaMaharshi, "vioricail" <vioricail> wrote:

> > >

> > > dear Alton , Richard ,

> > >

> > > last year I took part in the festivity of the end of the

> > > school year at my son's school; I can't remember much of it

> > > because at a certain moment everything appeared to be

> > > of such unreality and absurdity that the feeling scared me

> > > terrible. I sit there among all those people feeling that

> > > I was watching an already 'cast in stone' show with all

> > > its characters condemned to death.

> > > I felt like crying and I couldn't look in those people's eyes

> > > all the evening ,

> > >

> > > v.