Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 Dear Richard: I see that we are dealing with not only some soul that has "realized' but is also a mental GIANT. I will continue this dialogue, but first some more meditation and contemplation on the issues raised. "Question about a previous post. Your wrote: This silence of mind is beyond the mere quiet mind. From the quiet mind, one can still inquire, "From whom is the quiet?" In this silence of mind, there is no second." When you inquire, "from who is the quiet" do you then answer "I" and follow with "Who am I" Thanks in advance and retreat. Aloha, Alton RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...> wrote: > Dear Alton, > > I was a little flip in the statement, "It is your fate to have free > will." I was trying to force your mind to turn inward. > > Great Advaita Sages like Ramana and Sankara stressed self-effort as a > key to Self-realization. Why is self-e3ffort needed if all is the > predestined result of the process of the universe? > > Your view seems clearly one of "Destiny" or "Fate" vs. "Free Will." > Ramana repeatedly advised those who came to him with such views to > then complete the surrender to God, and surrender all sense of ego, > doership, and to surrender their stand as an individual personality. > > My own sense of this can be stated in a poem that I heard read once, > attributed to Rumi (though I have never been able to find it). > > "You should praise your power to make choices. > Saying 'nothing can be done' denies the gifts that have been given. > So when you praise your power to choose you will receive your reward, > Which is more power for choosing." > > A couple of other points to consider: > > Your stand determines your experience. Does your stand as the > product of the causal process of the universe bring you to > the "Freedom" that the sages talk about, when discussing Self- > realization? Ramana talked about "no world, no ego." Where does > this causal pattern fit in that? It seems like this view is just > another assertion of the reality and primacy of the universe and its > causation. Does this causal view form yet another way of holding to > the reality of the world (as opposed to the reality of Self, or Being- > Consciousness-Bliss? > > Until Self-realization we respond to the world/ego/body ideas from > our mind. Self-Realizations comes as we either relinquish this > world/ego/body through surrender, or as Ramana recommended eliminate > the separate world/ego/body through the intellect's practice of > inquiry until the mind and intellect is burnt up by the inquiry, like > the stick used to stir the fire. > > My sole purpose in bringing up any of this is to keep returning your > mind to the Self. Who knows of this universe and its causes? Is > this knower found within any of the known within the universe? > > I knew I was just "causing trouble" with my reply to you. I was > causing this trouble for a reason though. I see an idea that you > have of who you are that can limit your spiritual depth (unless you > take in to complete surrender - and even surrender that idea). I am > suggesting that who you are is like what is stated in the Avadhut > Gita, > > "I am without beginning and without end. Never was I bound. By > nature pure, Taintless is my Self." > > Keep plunging inside. What is you seek is who you are. Do not be > limited, even by your ideas of who you are and what the universe is, > and how the universe works. Seek within yourself to know what is > real and to see what is just passing and changing. Know that You are > That. > > We are Not two. > Richard > RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > Dear Richard: > > Generally I love everything you present, but your statement, "It is > > your fate to have free will. You can choose to practice", does not > > add up to me. > > > > I believe that If I had a powerful enough computer with an input of > > all the events since the beginning of creation and a program to > match > > one would be able to predict every event in the universe. So > whether > > I choose to practice is not exception to the aforesaid theory. That > > too is cast in stone. > > > > Thanks so much for sharing again. > > > > Aloha, > > Alton > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...> > > wrote: > > > Alton, > > > > > > It is your fate to have free will. You can choose to practice. > > > > > > The mind becomes silent when the misidentification to the > > > body/world/ego/mind is resolved. And it must be resolved > entirely. > > > > > > This silence of mind is beyond the mere quiet mind. From the > quiet > > > mind, one can still inquire, "From whom is the quiet?" In this > > > silence of mind, there is no second. > > > > > > On the other hand, if it is yours to surrender to your fate, then > > > also surrender your ego and sense of doer, and surrender them > > > entirely. Surrender your doubts and your striving. > > > > > > For me, it is to keep the inquiry going. This last year of > > > negation/discrimination has brought me to a deeper understanding > > that > > > whoever I am, I will NOT find it within the known. This deeper > > > knowledge drives the mind within and the inquiry more strongly > > > towards the Knower. > > > > > > We are all blessed. The Truth is who we are. > > > > > > > > > We are Not two, > > > Richard > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> > > wrote: > > > > Dear Viorica and everyone: > > > > The sage said, "No amount of meditation will be enough. You > need > > a > > > > firm conviction. All there is, is a silent mind." These are not > > > exact > > > > quotes. I don't as yet have that silent mind, but I sure have > the > > > > rirm conviction. It's like I believed these teachings before I > > came > > > > upon them. I remembered being on the side of no free will, many > > > years > > > > before I learned that my two teachers held the same view. > > > > > > > > Aloha, > > > > Alton > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "viorica_weissman" > > > > <viorica_weissman> wrote: > > > > > dear Alton, > > > > > just wondering if you really need somebody else's > descriptions > > > > > about the state of Self-realization . > > > > > v. 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Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 Dear Alton, Thanks for your kind response. I am still just another seeker. A difference is that I have been blessed for the last ten years to be with two living Self-realized teachers, Nome and Russel Smith at the Society of Abidance in Truth, in Santa Cruz, CA. After a while, one starts to learn through the age-old process of "listen, reflect then deeply meditate." I have found is that what makes a difference is actually developing a spiritual practice (and making this practice more important than my ego's desires), or self-effort. Practicing only when one "wants to" or "has time for" is letting the ego drive your practice.) And practice means Self-inquiry. Again, being with living teachers, I am able to practice, then go to satsang and ask questions, and offer up my ignorance to the teachers, who answer every question and continue to focus us upon our own being. As for your question, about the inquiry upon the quiet mind, your approach will work fine. What Nome and Russ have said also is to be willing to let yourself enjoy this quiet mind, and to also notice that you exist even when your mind is free of thoughts. If this is true can you be a thought? This quiet mind is like the best vacation. It is a vacation from your mind, what a relief! Then resume the inquiry, "For whom is the quiet?" then "It is for me?" then "Who am I?" If this inquiry takes you to the witness, then just keep with this. Otherwise keep the inquiry going until the fire of Self-knowledge burns up the stick of inquiry. Another form of the inquiry that I sometimes use is "Who knows this quiet?" This sometimes takes me directly to "the knower." In my deepest meditations I still then ask, "Who am I?" and experience the knower and "who I am" are one and the same. At this point my inquiry can go no deeper. As long as you can inquire, do so. There will come a time when inquiry is no longer possible. (OH BOY!!!) Keep your own inquiry going. The Truth will arise from the inquiry, not for any of your thoughts about the world and the Alton. Your intellect can help the process. As you inquire and negate who you are not, the conviction grows as to who you are. Finally the intellect becomes satisfied, and the inquiry plunges much deeper. This brings the only knowledge that matters - Self-knowledge. We are Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > Dear Richard: > I see that we are dealing with not only some soul that has "realized' > but is also a mental GIANT. I will continue this dialogue, but first > some more meditation and contemplation on the issues raised. > > "Question about a previous post. > Your wrote: > This silence of mind is beyond the mere quiet mind. From the quiet > mind, one can still inquire, "From whom is the quiet?" In this > silence of mind, there is no second." > > When you inquire, "from who is the quiet" do you then answer "I" and > follow with "Who am I" > Thanks in advance and retreat. > Aloha, > Alton > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...> > wrote: > > Dear Alton, > > > > I was a little flip in the statement, "It is your fate to have free > > will." I was trying to force your mind to turn inward. > > > > Great Advaita Sages like Ramana and Sankara stressed self-effort as > a > > key to Self-realization. Why is self-e3ffort needed if all is the > > predestined result of the process of the universe? > > > > Your view seems clearly one of "Destiny" or "Fate" vs. "Free > Will." > > Ramana repeatedly advised those who came to him with such views to > > then complete the surrender to God, and surrender all sense of ego, > > doership, and to surrender their stand as an individual > personality. > > > > My own sense of this can be stated in a poem that I heard read > once, > > attributed to Rumi (though I have never been able to find it). > > > > "You should praise your power to make choices. > > Saying 'nothing can be done' denies the gifts that have been given. > > So when you praise your power to choose you will receive your > reward, > > Which is more power for choosing." > > > > A couple of other points to consider: > > > > Your stand determines your experience. Does your stand as the > > product of the causal process of the universe bring you to > > the "Freedom" that the sages talk about, when discussing Self- > > realization? Ramana talked about "no world, no ego." Where does > > this causal pattern fit in that? It seems like this view is just > > another assertion of the reality and primacy of the universe and > its > > causation. Does this causal view form yet another way of holding > to > > the reality of the world (as opposed to the reality of Self, or > Being- > > Consciousness-Bliss? > > > > Until Self-realization we respond to the world/ego/body ideas from > > our mind. Self-Realizations comes as we either relinquish this > > world/ego/body through surrender, or as Ramana recommended > eliminate > > the separate world/ego/body through the intellect's practice of > > inquiry until the mind and intellect is burnt up by the inquiry, > like > > the stick used to stir the fire. > > > > My sole purpose in bringing up any of this is to keep returning > your > > mind to the Self. Who knows of this universe and its causes? Is > > this knower found within any of the known within the universe? > > > > I knew I was just "causing trouble" with my reply to you. I was > > causing this trouble for a reason though. I see an idea that you > > have of who you are that can limit your spiritual depth (unless you > > take in to complete surrender - and even surrender that idea). I > am > > suggesting that who you are is like what is stated in the Avadhut > > Gita, > > > > "I am without beginning and without end. Never was I bound. By > > nature pure, Taintless is my Self." > > > > Keep plunging inside. What is you seek is who you are. Do not be > > limited, even by your ideas of who you are and what the universe > is, > > and how the universe works. Seek within yourself to know what is > > real and to see what is just passing and changing. Know that You > are > > That. > > > > We are Not two. > > Richard > > RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> > wrote: > > > Dear Richard: > > > Generally I love everything you present, but your statement, "It > is > > > your fate to have free will. You can choose to practice", does > not > > > add up to me. > > > > > > I believe that If I had a powerful enough computer with an input > of > > > all the events since the beginning of creation and a program to > > match > > > one would be able to predict every event in the universe. So > > whether > > > I choose to practice is not exception to the aforesaid theory. > That > > > too is cast in stone. > > > > > > Thanks so much for sharing again. > > > > > > Aloha, > > > Alton > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...> > > > wrote: > > > > Alton, > > > > > > > > It is your fate to have free will. You can choose to > practice. > > > > > > > > The mind becomes silent when the misidentification to the > > > > body/world/ego/mind is resolved. And it must be resolved > > entirely. > > > > > > > > This silence of mind is beyond the mere quiet mind. From the > > quiet > > > > mind, one can still inquire, "From whom is the quiet?" In this > > > > silence of mind, there is no second. > > > > > > > > On the other hand, if it is yours to surrender to your fate, > then > > > > also surrender your ego and sense of doer, and surrender them > > > > entirely. Surrender your doubts and your striving. > > > > > > > > For me, it is to keep the inquiry going. This last year of > > > > negation/discrimination has brought me to a deeper > understanding > > > that > > > > whoever I am, I will NOT find it within the known. This deeper > > > > knowledge drives the mind within and the inquiry more strongly > > > > towards the Knower. > > > > > > > > We are all blessed. The Truth is who we are. > > > > > > > > > > > > We are Not two, > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> > > > wrote: > > > > > Dear Viorica and everyone: > > > > > The sage said, "No amount of meditation will be enough. You > > need > > > a > > > > > firm conviction. All there is, is a silent mind." These are > not > > > > exact > > > > > quotes. I don't as yet have that silent mind, but I sure have > > the > > > > > rirm conviction. It's like I believed these teachings before > I > > > came > > > > > upon them. I remembered being on the side of no free will, > many > > > > years > > > > > before I learned that my two teachers held the same view. > > > > > > > > > > Aloha, > > > > > Alton > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "viorica_weissman" > > > > > <viorica_weissman> wrote: > > > > > > dear Alton, > > > > > > just wondering if you really need somebody else's > > descriptions > > > > > > about the state of Self-realization . > > > > > > v. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 Dear Richard: Much appreciation again for you sharing consciousness. Is it necessary to have a living Master? That is why I liked Nisargadatta so much, because he said it it the Guru's words and not the guru. I dislike trusting and the being betrayed. The 5 masters that initiated me and also irritated me said that a living master is absolulely necessary. Do your teachers give you tranmissions that help your practice? People who came in contact with Ramana and Nisargadatta say that happens. Thanks for you forthcoming helpful answers, Aloha, Alton RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...> wrote: > Dear Alton, > > Thanks for your kind response. I am still just another seeker. A > difference is that I have been blessed for the last ten years to be > with two living Self-realized teachers, Nome and Russel Smith at the > Society of Abidance in Truth, in Santa Cruz, CA. After a while, one > starts to learn through the age-old process of "listen, reflect then > deeply meditate." > > I have found is that what makes a difference is actually developing a > spiritual practice (and making this practice more important than my > ego's desires), or self-effort. Practicing only when one "wants to" > or "has time for" is letting the ego drive your practice.) And > practice means Self-inquiry. > > Again, being with living teachers, I am able to practice, then go to > satsang and ask questions, and offer up my ignorance to the teachers, > who answer every question and continue to focus us upon our own > being. > > As for your question, about the inquiry upon the quiet mind, your > approach will work fine. What Nome and Russ have said also is to be > willing to let yourself enjoy this quiet mind, and to also notice > that you exist even when your mind is free of thoughts. If this is > true can you be a thought? This quiet mind is like the best > vacation. It is a vacation from your mind, what a relief! > > Then resume the inquiry, "For whom is the quiet?" then "It is for > me?" then "Who am I?" If this inquiry takes you to the witness, then > just keep with this. Otherwise keep the inquiry going until the fire > of Self-knowledge burns up the stick of inquiry. Another form of the > inquiry that I sometimes use is "Who knows this quiet?" This > sometimes takes me directly to "the knower." In my deepest > meditations I still then ask, "Who am I?" and experience the knower > and "who I am" are one and the same. At this point my inquiry can go > no deeper. > > As long as you can inquire, do so. There will come a time when > inquiry is no longer possible. (OH BOY!!!) > > Keep your own inquiry going. The Truth will arise from the inquiry, > not for any of your thoughts about the world and the Alton. Your > intellect can help the process. As you inquire and negate who you > are not, the conviction grows as to who you are. Finally the > intellect becomes satisfied, and the inquiry plunges much deeper. > This brings the only knowledge that matters - Self-knowledge. > > We are Not two, > Richard > > > RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > Dear Richard: > > I see that we are dealing with not only some soul that > has "realized' > > but is also a mental GIANT. I will continue this dialogue, but > first > > some more meditation and contemplation on the issues raised. > > > > "Question about a previous post. > > Your wrote: > > This silence of mind is beyond the mere quiet mind. From the quiet > > mind, one can still inquire, "From whom is the quiet?" In this > > silence of mind, there is no second." > > > > When you inquire, "from who is the quiet" do you then answer "I" > and > > follow with "Who am I" > > Thanks in advance and retreat. > > Aloha, > > Alton > > > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...> > > wrote: > > > Dear Alton, > > > > > > I was a little flip in the statement, "It is your fate to have > free > > > will." I was trying to force your mind to turn inward. > > > > > > Great Advaita Sages like Ramana and Sankara stressed self- effort > as > > a > > > key to Self-realization. Why is self-e3ffort needed if all is > the > > > predestined result of the process of the universe? > > > > > > Your view seems clearly one of "Destiny" or "Fate" vs. "Free > > Will." > > > Ramana repeatedly advised those who came to him with such views > to > > > then complete the surrender to God, and surrender all sense of > ego, > > > doership, and to surrender their stand as an individual > > personality. > > > > > > My own sense of this can be stated in a poem that I heard read > > once, > > > attributed to Rumi (though I have never been able to find it). > > > > > > "You should praise your power to make choices. > > > Saying 'nothing can be done' denies the gifts that have been > given. > > > So when you praise your power to choose you will receive your > > reward, > > > Which is more power for choosing." > > > > > > A couple of other points to consider: > > > > > > Your stand determines your experience. Does your stand as the > > > product of the causal process of the universe bring you to > > > the "Freedom" that the sages talk about, when discussing Self- > > > realization? Ramana talked about "no world, no ego." Where does > > > this causal pattern fit in that? It seems like this view is just > > > another assertion of the reality and primacy of the universe and > > its > > > causation. Does this causal view form yet another way of holding > > to > > > the reality of the world (as opposed to the reality of Self, or > > Being- > > > Consciousness-Bliss? > > > > > > Until Self-realization we respond to the world/ego/body ideas > from > > > our mind. Self-Realizations comes as we either relinquish this > > > world/ego/body through surrender, or as Ramana recommended > > eliminate > > > the separate world/ego/body through the intellect's practice of > > > inquiry until the mind and intellect is burnt up by the inquiry, > > like > > > the stick used to stir the fire. > > > > > > My sole purpose in bringing up any of this is to keep returning > > your > > > mind to the Self. Who knows of this universe and its causes? Is > > > this knower found within any of the known within the universe? > > > > > > I knew I was just "causing trouble" with my reply to you. I was > > > causing this trouble for a reason though. I see an idea that you > > > have of who you are that can limit your spiritual depth (unless > you > > > take in to complete surrender - and even surrender that idea). I > > am > > > suggesting that who you are is like what is stated in the Avadhut > > > Gita, > > > > > > "I am without beginning and without end. Never was I bound. By > > > nature pure, Taintless is my Self." > > > > > > Keep plunging inside. What is you seek is who you are. Do not > be > > > limited, even by your ideas of who you are and what the universe > > is, > > > and how the universe works. Seek within yourself to know what is > > > real and to see what is just passing and changing. Know that You > > are > > > That. > > > > > > We are Not two. > > > Richard > > > RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> > > wrote: > > > > Dear Richard: > > > > Generally I love everything you present, but your > statement, "It > > is > > > > your fate to have free will. You can choose to practice", does > > not > > > > add up to me. > > > > > > > > I believe that If I had a powerful enough computer with an > input > > of > > > > all the events since the beginning of creation and a program to > > > match > > > > one would be able to predict every event in the universe. So > > > whether > > > > I choose to practice is not exception to the aforesaid theory. > > That > > > > too is cast in stone. > > > > > > > > Thanks so much for sharing again. > > > > > > > > Aloha, > > > > Alton > > > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" > <r_clarke@i...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > Alton, > > > > > > > > > > It is your fate to have free will. You can choose to > > practice. > > > > > > > > > > The mind becomes silent when the misidentification to the > > > > > body/world/ego/mind is resolved. And it must be resolved > > > entirely. > > > > > > > > > > This silence of mind is beyond the mere quiet mind. From the > > > quiet > > > > > mind, one can still inquire, "From whom is the quiet?" In > this > > > > > silence of mind, there is no second. > > > > > > > > > > On the other hand, if it is yours to surrender to your fate, > > then > > > > > also surrender your ego and sense of doer, and surrender them > > > > > entirely. Surrender your doubts and your striving. > > > > > > > > > > For me, it is to keep the inquiry going. This last year of > > > > > negation/discrimination has brought me to a deeper > > understanding > > > > that > > > > > whoever I am, I will NOT find it within the known. This > deeper > > > > > knowledge drives the mind within and the inquiry more > strongly > > > > > towards the Knower. > > > > > > > > > > We are all blessed. The Truth is who we are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are Not two, > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" > <leenalton@h...> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Viorica and everyone: > > > > > > The sage said, "No amount of meditation will be enough. You > > > need > > > > a > > > > > > firm conviction. All there is, is a silent mind." These are > > not > > > > > exact > > > > > > quotes. I don't as yet have that silent mind, but I sure > have > > > the > > > > > > rirm conviction. It's like I believed these teachings > before > > I > > > > came > > > > > > upon them. I remembered being on the side of no free will, > > many > > > > > years > > > > > > before I learned that my two teachers held the same view. > > > > > > > > > > > > Aloha, > > > > > > Alton > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "viorica_weissman" > > > > > > <viorica_weissman> wrote: > > > > > > > dear Alton, > > > > > > > just wondering if you really need somebody else's > > > descriptions > > > > > > > about the state of Self-realization . > > > > > > > v. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 22, 2002 Report Share Posted April 22, 2002 RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> wrote: Dear Alton, Again, I am answering just as another seeker. I must answer from my own experience. I had started writing a long answer, complete with stories from my life and early spiritual activities. Then I saw that these stories are just ego-ideas of some kind of personal history, so I will answer in another way. Hopefully shorter and more direct. Short answer: Is a teacher needed? For most of us, yes. Some, like Ramana, upon first hearing or experiencing the Truth, realize this Truth as their own experience, once and for all time. Probably it is only for the rest of us that teachers are needed. One on hand there are many teachers. We have all benefited from such. On the other, in my own spiritual life, there came a time when what was appropriate was to "dig one hole deep" rather than to go around digging a bunch of shallow holes wherever I was drawn to at the time. The next question is then, "What teacher is right for me?" It seems like Ramana said, when asked, something like, "You will know." For me, I felt some kind of rapport the first time I went to Nome. Did not know what it was, or really much of what he was saying. I did not go to him looking for a teacher, but rather was on a date with a new girlfriend. But it drew me back. And as I listened and reflected, what I was hearing made all those Buddhist books I had read for 25 years start to make sense in a MUCH deeper way. Finally I was even able to give up the view that I was a smart guy, and I could figure out everything for myself, and started doing more than listening. I started a daily meditation (self-inquiry) practice, and things started to deepen. For me, also it is teachers that do not teach from any ego nor to any ego (even mine). The teacher must also clearly say and show that you are that Truth that you seek. It is not far, it is not "other." As you know, I think that Nome and Russ are extraordinary. I would invite anyone who has interest to join them for a Retreat, or to get an audio tape of a recent satsang and to listen to what they teach. Another advantage of many teachers (certainly Nome and Russ) is that you are able to ask questions about your practice as it progresses. This accelerates the process. Certainly one big part of practice is learning to use your mind in a way to bring about Self-knowledge that is beyond the mind. This is unexplored area for most of us. This is formless practice. At times the mind and ego will not be comfortable. Yet awareness deepens! I found the ongoing questions and dialogs with the sages most useful. I still do. Thank you Universe for the grace that has been given!!! You talk about disappointment with teachers. Sounds like they did not take you deep enough, or that you were not ready. I know that one thing that was critical for me with Nome was that when I came to him I did have an open heart. A teacher will lay a precious jewel at our feet. It is up to us to recognize it for what it is, and to reach out and accept the jewel. That jewel is Who You Are. I did not notice if I ever took any transmission from my teacher(s). Nor did they ever offer any initiation. What I did notice that finally I started practicing. We are Not two, Richard > Dear Richard: > Much appreciation again for you sharing consciousness. > > Is it necessary to have a living Master? That is why I liked > Nisargadatta so much, because he said it it the Guru's words and not > the guru. I dislike trusting and the being betrayed. The 5 masters > that initiated me and also irritated me said that a living master is > absolulely necessary. > > Do your teachers give you tranmissions that help your practice? > > People who came in contact with Ramana and Nisargadatta say that > happens. > > Thanks for you forthcoming helpful answers, > Aloha, > Alton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 Dear Richard "Enjoying this discussion. Like you, I am answering to the best of my understanding - as a seeker, not a sage." I copy that. > To believe that every event already happened when the zygote came into existence, is to me to believe that God or the universe is the doer. This belief has been quite freeing for me. < A respectable position. Surrender. Just make sure that you take it all the way and give God your ego, too. I am surrendering to the teachings, but the God concept does not align with my consciousness, except if you define it as the power of infinite possibilities. The possibilities are both the primary object "I" and the secondary objects that are based on the first one. The power is the Source or the Self that cannot be seen. > I see the "no choices" view as a quick route to non attachment. < "I am less sure about this. I understand the logic of the position. I certainly appreciate the need for non-attachment. For me the active choice of what is real over what is transient provides a deep path to this non-attachment. I want non-attachment to the circumstance, and even more, non-attachment to the state (i.e. waking state as the basis for my sense of reality). Maybe from a position of full surrender. On this path of Self-inquiry I see choices, and that making deeper choices, choosing to focus "on the first" rather than "the second or third" is an integral part of the process." I mostly agree. I surrender to the efficacy of the process of Self inquiry. Always bringing the mind back to the primary concept, day and night. I could surrender to Ramana if he were alive, because I see Ramana so far, as the only pure one. I don't know much about your two teachers, so I am open to investigating them. I like Nisargadatta's words the best of all, but there seems to be a number of inconsistencies. For example: We traveled to the Island of Maui to meet Balsekar a number of years ago. I specifically wanted Balsekar to initiate me. He said he did not do initiations. I said that I read that Nisargadatta did initiations and Balsekar said that he did not know about that. Then recently I read the story of an seeker that visited Nisargadatta and told of Nisargadatta pushing to initiate some seekers. > It's the same with those "unwanted thoughts". They used to really bother me because there was nothing that I did not think of. < "For whom are these thoughts? This inquiry quiets the thoughts. For whom does these thoughts have reality? This points the mind to the Source." I use "to I" for short, which the answer to the question, "to whom do those thoughts arise or occur". I see the objects and say internally " to I". I don't know if that is a correct way to practice, but If you have as many thoughts as I do, you then you might want to use "to I' to stay with it in the present time, and not get lost in thought identification. > he will soon find out that the seeker disappears in the seeking . When the seeker disappears there is not question of doing < "Could not disagree with a word. Much of this depends on the stand of the seeker. If the stand is as a body, then there will be birth, death and all between. If the stand is as the Self, then the body/mind/ego/world is Brahman, indivisible." > It is very simple: this is time-bound and anything which is time- bound is untrue, because time itself is a concept. < "Again, no disagreement. Well said, in fact. Deeper still, anything objective is a concept." I agree in full. "Alton, rather than me discussing this with you, I would really rather you come to satsang some time and ask Nome about all this. From what I know, I think that there are ways that you can take a deeper stand, and that this stand would bring you what seek. I am not enough of a spiritual dialectician to bring this out in this dialog. Certainly I respect your desire for liberation." I am open to meeting Nome, but would like him to come to Hawaii as I don't travel well and live on the edge of financial collapse. My SS is less then 700 per month and my part time job ended when my two bosses exited their vehicles at age 97 and 98. Luckily their son gave me a gift of 2k so I wont have to work for about 6 months. "We are Not two", "I am that by which I know I am" love, Alton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 Dear Alton, Based on your last response I am starting to see more clearly what could be spiritual issues in your approach. This is what it looks like to me, and certainly my impressions may be off base. But they may be worth your consideration. On one hand you seek something, let's call it the Absolute, within yourself. On the other hand, you view yourself as a part of, lets say, the forces of the universe, so that your actions and situations are a function of the forces of the universe, and not under you personal control. This seems to me like two Absolutes, not One. You surrender your "doership" to the Universe, but cannot surrender your ego to it (or so it seems). Then you go on to say that you surrender to the efficacy of Inquiry. The way that I understand it, inquiry is self-effort. Choice is important in this self-effort. Choice is important in two ways. The first is simply choosing to inquire. The second is during inquiry, when one chooses to return attention to the Self. So as I see it, you may have surrender and inquiry kind of mixed together. OK, but be careful about confusion. > I see the objects and say internally " to I". I don't know if that is a correct way to practice, but If you have as many thoughts as I do, you then you might want to use "to I' to stay with it in the present time, and not get lost in thought identification. < This is correct practice. Now I learned something at satsang Sunday that I had not known so clearly before. This is about the role of the intellect in inquiry. Inquiry results in two outcomes: either on is taken to the Witnessing consciousness (in which case nothing else is needed), or it does not. If not, one continues the inquiry. What is happing in the inquiry is that the intellect (which is turning over thoughts and ideas and saying, "I am this!No, I am that.") comes to see what it really is. As it sees this, it becomes calmer. When, finally the intellect is calm and quiet, the inquiry goes beyond the intellect. So this is the process of "burning up the stick that is used to stir the fire" that Ramana talks about. And there is a vital place for the intellect in inquiry. Knowing this is an immediate help to me. I had a much deeper insight that "I" would NEVER be found in the known. This insight immediately brought my inquiry deeper. I was getting ready to discard it though, as mere understanding of the intellect, until in satsang I came to see that this kind of understanding of the intellect is really a key element in the inquiry. So now I understand inquiry somewhat differently. Inquiry is for the mind, for the intellect. The Self does not need any inquiry. As to your chance to be with the sages, they do not travel. Some teachers are on a "circuit," traveling to present the teachings in different places. Nome and Russ just teach at SAT in Santa Cruz. Each satsang is recorded though, and audiotapes are made. May I review the list and recommend one or two that might be worthwhile? We are Not two, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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