Who am I? Paragrapf 4

[Guest guest]

Who am I? Paragraph 4

 

If the mind, which is the instrument of knowledge and is the basis of

all activity, subsides, the perception of the world as an objective

reality ceases. Unless the illusory perception of the serpent in the

rope ceases, the rope on which the illusions is formed is not

perceived as such. Similarly, unless the illusory nature of the

perception of the world as an objective reality ceases, the Vision of

the true nature of the Self, on which the illusion is formed, is not

obtained.

 

COMMENTS FROM A SEEKER:

First I must say that after writing comments to the first 3

paragraphs I feel humbled by the deep and perfect teaching of Ramana,

and by the brilliant and thorough exposition of this teaching that is

provided by Nome and Russ in satsang at SAT.

 

The comments I make here represent my own exploration, in writing, of

my understanding of these teachings. I am a seeker, and certainly no

sage. As there are errors and misunderstandings, they are those of

this vessel, and not due to the flawless teaching of Nome and Russ.

That I have made any headway at all is more due to the quality of

their teaching than any aptitude of mine as a student.

 

It is my hope that these explorations will be of use to others, like

myself, who are trying to bring forth this wisdom in their life. My

intent is to provide a few ways in which one can use this wonderful

material for more and deeper inquiry in their own practice.

 

Now on to this paragraph:

 

Now starts several paragraphs about the mind. The reason there is so

much focus on the mind is this: The Self is, (and is Who We Are).

What stands in the way of our direct experience of being the Self is

our ignorance. (We see the snake not the rope). This ignorance

consists only of thoughts. We may see the mind as the complex and

powerful force within us. But the mind, if you look closely enough,

turns out to be made only of thoughts. When the thoughts stop (or

are not given reality) then the ignorance is put down (at least for

that moment).

 

This is so important. As long as the mind is active, there is a

world, and an ego-I identity within it. AS the Ch'an poet, stone

House wrote, "The mind creates the world."

 

The focus of all knowledge-based spirituality is quieting the mind.

Ramana said that best for this is `Who am I?' With this approach, the

path and the goal are one and the same.

 

When one inquires into the Self, it is not to "gain" the Self; rather

it is to eliminate the ignorance. Unless the ignorance is

eliminated, you will not have the direct Knowledge of the Self that

you are.

 

**

I invite others to add their comments of their own understanding,

experiences, or questions. I want to invite all into a deeper

practice of inquiry.

 

The translation that I am using is the one from Osborn's "Collected

works of Ramana Maharshi."

 

We are Not two,

Richard

[Guest guest]

"This ignorance

consists only of thoughts. We may see the mind as the complex and

powerful force within us. But the mind, if you look closely enough,

turns out to be made only of thoughts. When the thoughts stop (or

are not given reality) then the ignorance is put down (at least for

that moment)."

 

Wondering about so called psychotic mental states; for instance,

catatonia, have the thoughts ceased? If that is true, then has

the "ignorance" been put down?

 

Anyone, thanks in advance for your replies.

Aloha,

Alton

 

 

 

 

 

 

RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...>

wrote:

> Who am I? Paragraph 4

>

> If the mind, which is the instrument of knowledge and is the basis

of

> all activity, subsides, the perception of the world as an objective

> reality ceases. Unless the illusory perception of the serpent in

the

> rope ceases, the rope on which the illusions is formed is not

> perceived as such. Similarly, unless the illusory nature of the

> perception of the world as an objective reality ceases, the Vision

of

> the true nature of the Self, on which the illusion is formed, is

not

> obtained.

>

> COMMENTS FROM A SEEKER:

> First I must say that after writing comments to the first 3

> paragraphs I feel humbled by the deep and perfect teaching of

Ramana,

> and by the brilliant and thorough exposition of this teaching that

is

> provided by Nome and Russ in satsang at SAT.

>

> The comments I make here represent my own exploration, in writing,

of

> my understanding of these teachings. I am a seeker, and certainly

no

> sage. As there are errors and misunderstandings, they are those of

> this vessel, and not due to the flawless teaching of Nome and

Russ.

> That I have made any headway at all is more due to the quality of

> their teaching than any aptitude of mine as a student.

>

> It is my hope that these explorations will be of use to others,

like

> myself, who are trying to bring forth this wisdom in their life.

My

> intent is to provide a few ways in which one can use this wonderful

> material for more and deeper inquiry in their own practice.

>

> Now on to this paragraph:

>

> Now starts several paragraphs about the mind. The reason there is

so

> much focus on the mind is this: The Self is, (and is Who We Are).

> What stands in the way of our direct experience of being the Self

is

> our ignorance. (We see the snake not the rope). This ignorance

> consists only of thoughts. We may see the mind as the complex and

> powerful force within us. But the mind, if you look closely

enough,

> turns out to be made only of thoughts. When the thoughts stop (or

> are not given reality) then the ignorance is put down (at least for

> that moment).

>

> This is so important. As long as the mind is active, there is a

> world, and an ego-I identity within it. AS the Ch'an poet, stone

> House wrote, "The mind creates the world."

>

> The focus of all knowledge-based spirituality is quieting the

mind.

> Ramana said that best for this is `Who am I?' With this approach,

the

> path and the goal are one and the same.

>

> When one inquires into the Self, it is not to "gain" the Self;

rather

> it is to eliminate the ignorance. Unless the ignorance is

> eliminated, you will not have the direct Knowledge of the Self that

> you are.

>

> **

> I invite others to add their comments of their own understanding,

> experiences, or questions. I want to invite all into a deeper

> practice of inquiry.

>

> The translation that I am using is the one from Osborn's "Collected

> works of Ramana Maharshi."

>

> We are Not two,

> Richard

[Guest guest]

Alton,

 

I have wondered that myself. If, during the years that Ramana was in

silent samadi, if he were in the USA, would we have put him into an

institution?

 

As for your question, I think it depends on the "stand" of the person

with the mental afliction. (By stand, I mean where they place their

identity.) If the stand is one as the body, or mind, then there is

the afliction. If the stand is as Being, then what else is needed?

 

We are Not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> wrote:

> "This ignorance

> consists only of thoughts. We may see the mind as the complex and

> powerful force within us. But the mind, if you look closely enough,

> turns out to be made only of thoughts. When the thoughts stop (or

> are not given reality) then the ignorance is put down (at least for

> that moment)."

>

> Wondering about so called psychotic mental states; for instance,

> catatonia, have the thoughts ceased? If that is true, then has

> the "ignorance" been put down?

>

> Anyone, thanks in advance for your replies.

> Aloha,

> Alton

RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...>

> wrote:

> > Who am I? Paragraph 4

> >

> > If the mind, which is the instrument of knowledge and is the

basis

> of

> > all activity, subsides, the perception of the world as an

objective

> > reality ceases. Unless the illusory perception of the serpent in

> the

> > rope ceases, the rope on which the illusions is formed is not

> > perceived as such. Similarly, unless the illusory nature of the

> > perception of the world as an objective reality ceases, the

Vision

> of

> > the true nature of the Self, on which the illusion is formed, is

> not

> > obtained.

> >

> > COMMENTS FROM A SEEKER:

> > First I must say that after writing comments to the first 3

> > paragraphs I feel humbled by the deep and perfect teaching of

> Ramana,

> > and by the brilliant and thorough exposition of this teaching

that

> is

> > provided by Nome and Russ in satsang at SAT.

> >

> > The comments I make here represent my own exploration, in

writing,

> of

> > my understanding of these teachings. I am a seeker, and

certainly

> no

> > sage. As there are errors and misunderstandings, they are those

of

> > this vessel, and not due to the flawless teaching of Nome and

> Russ.

> > That I have made any headway at all is more due to the quality of

> > their teaching than any aptitude of mine as a student.

> >

> > It is my hope that these explorations will be of use to others,

> like

> > myself, who are trying to bring forth this wisdom in their life.

> My

> > intent is to provide a few ways in which one can use this

wonderful

> > material for more and deeper inquiry in their own practice.

> >

> > Now on to this paragraph:

> >

> > Now starts several paragraphs about the mind. The reason there

is

> so

> > much focus on the mind is this: The Self is, (and is Who We

Are).

> > What stands in the way of our direct experience of being the Self

> is

> > our ignorance. (We see the snake not the rope). This ignorance

> > consists only of thoughts. We may see the mind as the complex

and

> > powerful force within us. But the mind, if you look closely

> enough,

> > turns out to be made only of thoughts. When the thoughts stop

(or

> > are not given reality) then the ignorance is put down (at least

for

> > that moment).

> >

> > This is so important. As long as the mind is active, there is a

> > world, and an ego-I identity within it. AS the Ch'an poet, stone

> > House wrote, "The mind creates the world."

> >

> > The focus of all knowledge-based spirituality is quieting the

> mind.

> > Ramana said that best for this is `Who am I?' With this approach,

> the

> > path and the goal are one and the same.

> >

> > When one inquires into the Self, it is not to "gain" the Self;

> rather

> > it is to eliminate the ignorance. Unless the ignorance is

> > eliminated, you will not have the direct Knowledge of the Self

that

> > you are.

> >

> > **

> > I invite others to add their comments of their own understanding,

> > experiences, or questions. I want to invite all into a deeper

> > practice of inquiry.

> >

> > The translation that I am using is the one from

Osborn's "Collected

> > works of Ramana Maharshi."

> >

> > We are Not two,

> > Richard

[Guest guest]

Alton,

 

I have wondered that myself. If, during the years that Ramana was in

silent samadi, if he were in the USA, would we have put him into an

institution?

 

As for your question, I think it depends on the "stand" of the person

with the mental afliction. (By stand, I mean where they place their

identity.) If the stand is one as the body, or mind, then there is

the afliction. If the stand is as Being, then what else is needed?

 

We are Not two,

Richard

 

RamanaMaharshi, "lostnfoundation" <leenalton@h...> wrote:

> "This ignorance

> consists only of thoughts. We may see the mind as the complex and

> powerful force within us. But the mind, if you look closely enough,

> turns out to be made only of thoughts. When the thoughts stop (or

> are not given reality) then the ignorance is put down (at least for

> that moment)."

>

> Wondering about so called psychotic mental states; for instance,

> catatonia, have the thoughts ceased? If that is true, then has

> the "ignorance" been put down?

>

> Anyone, thanks in advance for your replies.

> Aloha,

> Alton

RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...>

> wrote:

> > Who am I? Paragraph 4

> >

> > If the mind, which is the instrument of knowledge and is the

basis

> of

> > all activity, subsides, the perception of the world as an

objective

> > reality ceases. Unless the illusory perception of the serpent in

> the

> > rope ceases, the rope on which the illusions is formed is not

> > perceived as such. Similarly, unless the illusory nature of the

> > perception of the world as an objective reality ceases, the

Vision

> of

> > the true nature of the Self, on which the illusion is formed, is

> not

> > obtained.

> >

> > COMMENTS FROM A SEEKER:

> > First I must say that after writing comments to the first 3

> > paragraphs I feel humbled by the deep and perfect teaching of

> Ramana,

> > and by the brilliant and thorough exposition of this teaching

that

> is

> > provided by Nome and Russ in satsang at SAT.

> >

> > The comments I make here represent my own exploration, in

writing,

> of

> > my understanding of these teachings. I am a seeker, and

certainly

> no

> > sage. As there are errors and misunderstandings, they are those

of

> > this vessel, and not due to the flawless teaching of Nome and

> Russ.

> > That I have made any headway at all is more due to the quality of

> > their teaching than any aptitude of mine as a student.

> >

> > It is my hope that these explorations will be of use to others,

> like

> > myself, who are trying to bring forth this wisdom in their life.

> My

> > intent is to provide a few ways in which one can use this

wonderful

> > material for more and deeper inquiry in their own practice.

> >

> > Now on to this paragraph:

> >

> > Now starts several paragraphs about the mind. The reason there

is

> so

> > much focus on the mind is this: The Self is, (and is Who We

Are).

> > What stands in the way of our direct experience of being the Self

> is

> > our ignorance. (We see the snake not the rope). This ignorance

> > consists only of thoughts. We may see the mind as the complex

and

> > powerful force within us. But the mind, if you look closely

> enough,

> > turns out to be made only of thoughts. When the thoughts stop

(or

> > are not given reality) then the ignorance is put down (at least

for

> > that moment).

> >

> > This is so important. As long as the mind is active, there is a

> > world, and an ego-I identity within it. AS the Ch'an poet, stone

> > House wrote, "The mind creates the world."

> >

> > The focus of all knowledge-based spirituality is quieting the

> mind.

> > Ramana said that best for this is `Who am I?' With this approach,

> the

> > path and the goal are one and the same.

> >

> > When one inquires into the Self, it is not to "gain" the Self;

> rather

> > it is to eliminate the ignorance. Unless the ignorance is

> > eliminated, you will not have the direct Knowledge of the Self

that

> > you are.

> >

> > **

> > I invite others to add their comments of their own understanding,

> > experiences, or questions. I want to invite all into a deeper

> > practice of inquiry.

> >

> > The translation that I am using is the one from

Osborn's "Collected

> > works of Ramana Maharshi."

> >

> > We are Not two,

> > Richard

[Guest guest]

"The mind creates the world."

 

The confusion felt by some over this phrase can be eliminated. One

way is to focus on the I am. Another is to see that naming a thing

gives it a place in the mind and hence a place in the world.

 

A row of computers does not exist to a dog walking past them. A

whirr or light would exist because they have a place in the dog's

mind but the computer itself does not. Existence in this sense is

tied to perception and memory. It requires that a thing be

differentiated and then tied in to the structure of a "world" to

provide a context and meaning.

 

Placing oneself within this structure allows one to identify with the

instruments of perception instead of the nameless, which preceded the

structure. Doing this is so universally accepted that anyone

questioning it is considered egotistical.

 

What difficult irony.

 

Love

Bobby G.

[Guest guest]

Dear Bobby G.

 

Ramana was very clear in saying that as long as one holds on to the

world as real, then one will not see the Self. For many, this is one

of the most difficult teachings of Advaita Vedanta.

 

I think that it is worth noting that when Ramana (or Sankara) talk

about real and unreal, "real" is defined as permanent.

 

To further confuse the poor seeker, when he is considering what is

real, he is using the mind and conceptual thought, and what he is

trying to see is that, within which the mind functions. No wonder it

is confusing.

 

Finally better for the seeker to decide that the teacher knows what

is taught, and teaches it for a reason. It is for the seeker

to listen, reflect, meditate and use the intellect as a tool to see

how what the master says is realy true. Then to experiece this for

himself.

 

Hope I am not being too pedantic.

 

We are Not two,

Richard

RamanaMaharshi, "texasbg2000" <Bigbobgraham@a...> wrote:

> "The mind creates the world."

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 5/13/2002 4:17:26 PM Central Daylight Time,

r_clarke writes:

 

 

> Hope I am not being too pedantic.

>

> We are Not two,

> Richard

>

 

*Actually I thought you summed that up very nicely!

Poly

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

"The mind creates the world."

 

The confusion felt by some over this phrase can be eliminated. One

way is to focus on the I am. Another is to see that naming a thing

gives it a place in the mind and hence a place in the world.

 

A row of computers does not exist to a dog walking past them. A

whirr or light would exist because they have a place in the dog's

mind but the computer itself does not. Existence in this sense is

tied to perception and memory. It requires that a thing be

differentiated and then tied in to the structure of a "world" to

provide a context and meaning.

 

Placing oneself within this structure allows one to identify with the

instruments of perception instead of the nameless, which preceded the

structure. Doing this is so universally accepted that anyone

questioning it is considered egotistical.

 

What difficult irony.

 

Love

Bobby G.

 

RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...>

wrote:

> Dear Bobby G.

>

> Ramana was very clear in saying that as long as one holds on to the

> world as real, then one will not see the Self. For many, this is

one

> of the most difficult teachings of Advaita Vedanta.

 

Dear Richard:

 

HOW one is holding on to the world was exactly my point. I think it

will become clear over time that it does not clash with Ramana's

teachings.

 

>

> I think that it is worth noting that when Ramana (or Sankara) talk

> about real and unreal, "real" is defined as permanent.

 

My experience with the unchanging (permanent) nature of the real is

personal. For me it means that the Real Self is Shankara and Ramana,

and when the mind is submerged I am that. How could I not be?

 

>

> To further confuse the poor seeker, when he is considering what is

> real, he is using the mind and conceptual thought, and what he is

> trying to see is that, within which the mind functions. No wonder

it

> is confusing.

 

Yes, hence the need for clarification.

Arthur Osborne-

"Some armchair critics have claimed that the quest of Self-

realization is arrogant or presumptuous or does not involve the

humility and self-effacement of sainthood. If, instead of

theorizing, they undertook the eradication of the vasanas, which are

the roots of the ego, they would soon see."

-from The Teachings of Ramana Maharshi" by Arthur Osborne p. 178

 

Eliminating the vasanas is what effort is all about. These

tendencies can be eradicated and the methods are many. One is

enjoined to take up an activity that counteracts confusion producing

vasanas. Self enquiry is the best because the goal is the process.

Understanding of the mind as it is explained in Raja Yoga is another.

This is reccommended to people as a way to become fit for self

enquiry.

 

>

> Finally better for the seeker to decide that the teacher knows what

> is taught, and teaches it for a reason. It is for the seeker

> to listen, reflect, meditate and use the intellect as a tool to see

> how what the master says is realy true. Then to experiece this for

> himself.

 

Yes it would be impossible for me to grasp Ramana's meanings at first

glance and love for him always makes me reach for a new way to see in

order to show my love.

 

>

> Hope I am not being too pedantic.

 

Not at all. I greatly benefit from your insights and am glad for

this opportunity to get to know you.

 

We are Not two,

> Richard

 

Love

Bobby G.