Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 Paragraph 18 For instance, the mind subsides by the practice of pranayama (restraint and control of breath and vital forces); yet such subsidence lasts only as long as the control of breath and vital forces continues; and when they are released, the mind also gets released and immediately, becoming externalized, it continues to wander through the force of its subtle tendencies. COMMENTS This form of meditation is "concentration based." Here the mind is focused on some point of meditation (the breath), and the mind becomes `filled' with what it is focused upon, and the other thoughts stop – as long as the focus remains. When the focus is interrupted, the mind again flows in habitual ways. I think the issue with any form of concentrative meditation is that the concentration is naturally on some physical or mental form, and that it is difficult to move to the formless though a form. Self- inquiry is a formless meditation, that is its power. Early in my practice of Self-inquiry, though, I would use a form of pranayama as a means to quiet the mind (and to improve my concentration), then, once the mind was quiet(er), I would start the inquiry. I asked about this in satsang and was told that this is OK, that it is important for the seeker to develop the ability to concentrate, and that pranayama is a fine was to develop it – but that it is not a substitute for Self-inquiry. ------------------- We are Not two, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...> wrote: > Paragraph 18 > > For instance, the mind subsides by the practice of pranayama > (restraint and control of breath and vital forces); yet such > subsidence lasts only as long as the control of breath and vital > forces continues; and when they are released, the mind also gets > released and immediately, becoming externalized, it continues to > wander through the force of its subtle tendencies. > > COMMENTS > This form of meditation is "concentration based." Here the mind is > focused on some point of meditation (the breath), and the mind > becomes `filled' with what it is focused upon, and the other thoughts > stop – as long as the focus remains. When the focus is interrupted, > the mind again flows in habitual ways. > > I think the issue with any form of concentrative meditation is that > the concentration is naturally on some physical or mental form, and > that it is difficult to move to the formless though a form. Self- > inquiry is a formless meditation, that is its power. > > Early in my practice of Self-inquiry, though, I would use a form of > pranayama as a means to quiet the mind (and to improve my > concentration), then, once the mind was quiet(er), I would start the > inquiry. I asked about this in satsang and was told that this is OK, > that it is important for the seeker to develop the ability to > concentrate, and that pranayama is a fine was to develop it – but > that it is not a substitute for Self-inquiry. > > ------------------- > We are Not two, > Richard ************** Yes, Patanjali calls concentration a prerequisite for true meditation. But there is at least more than one way to achieve this concentration. Deep concentration as achieved through study (with seed) is what the ancient Stoics talked about. They did not go as far as meditation without seed. This is so true Richard. This I understand. Why? Because my journals are full of the experiences of pranayama as imposed by the inner guru. And while the experience is powerful, it is, as you say temporary. It can be proven so because those who concentrate, at work let's say, in a deep state, concentrate thus on a daily basis, will also reap some of the benefits of concentration! But Self is not known or realized in this way. They may occasionally experience pranayama in dreams or have more control over their personal life or be able hold back on immediate gratification. There are some benefits, but the seeds of this concentration only bring forth more seeds, more fruit of this life is harvested. I think it is important to not throw the baby out with the bath water. To show people that there are parallels, useful ones, that they can employ to bring the mind under control. These concepts can be abtruse and difficult to understand at first. The mind does not want to understand how it can be brought under control. That's funny. And yes Truth is universal. The Spirit of Truth is what the Western mind translates as God as it exists as part of the Trinity, however. Namaste Net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 Hello Net, I enjoy your contributions. I particularly appreciate that your comments come from your own spiritual practice and experiences. +++++++++++++++++++ (clipped) I think it is important to not throw the baby out with the bath water. To show people that there are parallels, useful ones, that they can employ to bring the mind under control. These concepts can be abtruse and difficult to understand at first. The mind does not want to understand how it can be brought under control. That's funny. ++++++++++++++++++++++++ I agree, there are many steps in spiritual growth that are of benefit, depending on where the seeker starts. Where they "stand." For example: >From a Unqualified Dualist perspective: For a dual materialist, living for things and the body, the sense that there is more to life than just things represents spiritual growth. >From a Qualified Dualist perspective: For another person, seeing that all the world is somehow, all of it, God, is a step that brings real peace. For the Qualified Nondualist: See that there is just the One, God, the Self, the Absolute, Brahman, and that that (other) one is who I am. Seeing the Nondual reality, but still as something not quite who you really see yourself to be. For the Unqualified Nondualist: There is only Brahman, and I am That. Formless, Uncreated, Timeless, Being-Consciousness-Bliss. My focus spiritually is on the Unqualified Nondualist path, and here these concentrative approaches all can be wonderful tools to gain control over the mind and to gain concentration. That concentration is really a `secondary' goal at this point. The purpose of the concentration is to enhance the inquiry. Self-inquiry is not effective if the focus, the concentration is not there. If it is not there, you will notice that most of the meditative time is spent with the mind wandering, with perhaps a few seconds of inquiry. We are Not two, Richard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 RamanaMaharshi, "richard_clarke95125" <r_clarke@i...> wrote: > Hello Net, > > I enjoy your contributions. I particularly appreciate that your > comments come from your own spiritual practice and experiences. > > +++++++++++++++++++ > (clipped) > I think it is important to not throw the baby out with the bath > water. To show people that there are parallels, useful ones, that > they can employ to bring the mind under control. These concepts can > be abtruse and difficult to understand at first. The mind does not > want to understand how it can be brought under control. That's > funny. > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++ > I agree, there are many steps in spiritual growth that are of > benefit, depending on where the seeker starts. Where they "stand." > For example: > > From a Unqualified Dualist perspective: For a dual materialist, > living for things and the body, the sense that there is more to life > than just things represents spiritual growth. > > From a Qualified Dualist perspective: For another person, seeing > that all the world is somehow, all of it, God, is a step that brings > real peace. > > For the Qualified Nondualist: See that there is just the One, God, > the Self, the Absolute, Brahman, and that that (other) one is who I > am. Seeing the Nondual reality, but still as something not quite who > you really see yourself to be. > > For the Unqualified Nondualist: There is only Brahman, and I am That. > Formless, Uncreated, Timeless, Being-Consciousness-Bliss. > > > My focus spiritually is on the Unqualified Nondualist path, and here > these concentrative approaches all can be wonderful tools to gain > control over the mind and to gain concentration. That concentration > is really a `secondary' goal at this point. The purpose of the > concentration is to enhance the inquiry. Self-inquiry is not > effective if the focus, the concentration is not there. If it is not > there, you will notice that most of the meditative time is spent with > the mind wandering, with perhaps a few seconds of inquiry. > > > We are Not two, > Richard ************* Richard, I enjoy that you are sharing out of your experience as well. That to me is the sine quo non of growth and practice. I guess it would even be selfish not to? The terminology I have familiarize myself with it all over again. I have been reading Wilber who uses every word known to man! (smile) and that helps me get a handle on the terminology so that I don't trip over all the words. A sail across the floor can affect one's concentration at meditation. Thank you Net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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