Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 In Sant Mat satsang and tradition we are given names which correspond with stages of Self-Realization, although it is not called that, and one of the highest stages is represented by the name "Sohang" which means "I am That" and is for all intents and purposes the Self recognizing Self, perhaps that does not translate, but you know what I mean. I think it represents Par Brahm, have to look it up to be sure, then Sat Lok. How does this fit in with the teachings of Ramana? Anyone.... Net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 >In Sant Mat satsang and tradition we are given names which correspond >with stages of Self-Realization, although it is not called that, and >one of the highest stages is represented by the name "Sohang" which >means "I am That" and is for all intents and purposes the Self >recognizing Self, perhaps that does not translate, but you know what >I mean. I think it represents Par Brahm, have to look it up to be >sure, then Sat Lok. > >How does this fit in with the teachings of Ramana? I don't know, apart from stating the obvious. Brainwashing the mind, "look you dope; I am He, I am He, I am He. You are a crust which has grown up around, nothing more." It's the same as chanting "hong-sau" or "soham" isn't it? Breathe; in out, in out, in out. Marion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 "I don't know, apart from stating the obvious. Brainwashing the mind, "look you dope; I am He, I am He, I am He. You are a crust which has grown up around, nothing more." Non-dualistic thinking here? Aloha, Alton RamanaMaharshi, "maz" <maz@g...> wrote: > > > > >In Sant Mat satsang and tradition we are given names which correspond > >with stages of Self-Realization, although it is not called that, and > >one of the highest stages is represented by the name "Sohang" which > >means "I am That" and is for all intents and purposes the Self > >recognizing Self, perhaps that does not translate, but you know what > >I mean. I think it represents Par Brahm, have to look it up to be > >sure, then Sat Lok. > > > >How does this fit in with the teachings of Ramana? > > I don't know, apart from stating the obvious. Brainwashing the mind, "look > you dope; I am He, I am He, I am He. You are a crust which has grown up > around, nothing more." > > It's the same as chanting "hong-sau" or "soham" isn't it? Breathe; in out, > in out, in out. > > Marion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 RamanaMaharshi, "maz" <maz@g...> wrote: > > > > >In Sant Mat satsang and tradition we are given names which correspond > >with stages of Self-Realization, although it is not called that, and > >one of the highest stages is represented by the name "Sohang" which > >means "I am That" and is for all intents and purposes the Self > >recognizing Self, perhaps that does not translate, but you know what > >I mean. I think it represents Par Brahm, have to look it up to be > >sure, then Sat Lok. > > > >How does this fit in with the teachings of Ramana? > > I don't know, apart from stating the obvious. Brainwashing the mind, "look > you dope; I am He, I am He, I am He. You are a crust which has grown up > around, nothing more." > > It's the same as chanting "hong-sau" or "soham" isn't it? Breathe; in out, > in out, in out. > > Marion ************ Actually Marion what I had in mind was not the means, but the goal. When the plane which Sohang represents is reached what is reached? If you've been there you know, if not, then your speculation is no more valid than mine, now is it? Net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 >Actually Marion what I had in mind was not the means, but the goal. >When the plane which Sohang represents is reached what is reached? >If you've been there you know, if not, then your speculation is no >more valid than mine, now is it? No if I had not been there my speculation would be no more valid than yours. I don't know If I've been there or not, since in my very limited experience, the people who have actually gone beyond the personality are not thick on the ground, well not thick on the net anyway. Of course I have no knowledge of the experiences of the people in this group, so please no-one take this personally. I went beyond the personality once, and what an eye-opener it was, because I didn't have a clue before that that state existed. I can't take any kudos for it either (I being the little I) because it happened totally by accident. Was it the plane which Sohang represents? Who can say, who do you ask? I wasn't being sarcastic btw, in my post. Marion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 --here is a chart of the planes Sohang is many times used in the scriptures it is the indigo colored 4-th plane the great void where ones leaves the mind behind.. IMHO Advaita is a twist of words on the same, since there is non other than Brahman. What you are saying Net: the Voin makes sense to me because of the many "negation" used in the practice and the many references to Siva the "destroyer" one of the Brahman trinity. http://santmat-meditation.net/other/planes.jpg ~all love Karta~ RamanaMaharshi, "netemara888" <netemara888> wrote: > In Sant Mat satsang and tradition we are given names which correspond > with stages of Self-Realization, although it is not called that, and > one of the highest stages is represented by the name "Sohang" which > means "I am That" and is for all intents and purposes the Self > recognizing Self, perhaps that does not translate, but you know what > I mean. I think it represents Par Brahm, have to look it up to be > sure, then Sat Lok. > > How does this fit in with the teachings of Ramana? > > Anyone.... > > Net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 --here is a chart of the planes Sohang is many times used in the scriptures it is the indigo colored 4-th plane the great void where ones leaves the mind behind.. I think that Advaita is a twist of words on the same since there is non other than Brahman. The Void makes sese because of the many "negation" used in the practice to the many references to Siva one of the that trinity. http://santmat-meditation.net/other/planes.jpg --as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the creation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causation. Anything that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be realized when one merges. (5-the plane) The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the intellect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditation have 5 planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it the pure Self of Brahman ~all ove Karta~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 Fabulous. Thank you. I recognize the Maha Sunn, great void, I've been there many times in meditation. But I believe you have to cross it and then at that point the mind is left behind. I have not crossed it, but been to the edges of its great blackness and expanse. Love Net ******************* - In RamanaMaharshi, "satkartar5" <mi_nok> wrote: > --here is a chart of the planes Sohang is many times used in the scriptures it is the indigo colored 4-th plane the great void where ones leaves the mind behind.. I think that Advaita is a twist of words on the same since there is non other than Brahman. The Void makes sese because of the many "negation" used in the practice to the many references to Siva one of the that trinity. http://santmat- meditation.net/other/planes.jpg > > --as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the creation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causation. Anything that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be realized when one merges. (5-the plane) > > The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the intellect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditation have 5 planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it the pure Self of Brahman > > ~all ove Karta~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 hi Net, the Ramana's way must be a great way to get there <smile> Om namo Ramana --about this Void comes to my mind A our mutual friend, I worry about him as he "fell pray" to a deluded westernsatguru who claims he went to the 8-th plane not leaving his mind behind (even zen monks have only hand-gestures for that un-explainable realm) but this "guru" recalls his "inner-experiences" of it huh! talking about delusion -and A refers to him as the God on earth today. I hope he is joking <grin> what is your take on this? ~love you Karta~ RamanaMaharshi, "netemara888" <netemara888> wrote: > Fabulous. Thank you. I recognize the Maha Sunn, great void, I've > been there many times in meditation. But I believe you have to cross > it and then at that point the mind is left behind. I have not > crossed it, but been to the edges of its great blackness and expanse. > > Love > > Net > > ******************* > > > > > > - In RamanaMaharshi, "satkartar5" <mi_nok> wrote: > > --here is a chart of the planes Sohang is many times used in the > scriptures it is the indigo colored 4-th plane the great void where > ones leaves the mind behind.. I think that Advaita is a twist of > words on the same since there is non other than Brahman. The Void > makes sese because of the many "negation" used in the practice to the > many references to Siva one of the that trinity. http://santmat- > meditation.net/other/planes.jpg > > > > --as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all > of the creation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space > and causation. Anything that can be experienced can not be the truth, > but truth can be realized when one merges. (5-the plane) > > > > The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the > intellect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat > meditation have 5 planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, > Advaita would call it the pure Self of Brahman > > > > ~all ove Karta~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2002 Report Share Posted June 30, 2002 Well, Karta, I think that maybe my inner guru has been reactivated after finding this group. I don't know who by what means, but I feel very positive about finding it now. I have always said that one should not have only one spiritual teacher for life. I see the truth in that for myself now. As for the void, all one can do is shrug because there is nothing there but one feels one is suspended over a greeeeeat huge black void, nothing to see, just an experience. Feel sort of helpless there don't really know how to proceed so I just return to my body when I reach there. However, if it is where the mind is left that might be the reason that one does not just traverse it or move into it. One does not make one's home there. And Sant Mat says that a great guide is needed to cross anyway. You're right this is the true crossroads, where the rubber meets the road, the guru on the road that is.....true company parts at only a short distance. Netemara We have Alton and the other person who ran me away from that group with his ill will to thank. All for the good. ************** -- In RamanaMaharshi, "satkartar5" <mi_nok> wrote: > hi Net, the Ramana's way must be a great > way to get there <smile> Om namo Ramana > --about this Void > comes to my mind A our mutual friend, > I worry about him as he "fell pray" to a deluded westernsatguru who claims he went > to the 8-th plane not leaving his mind > behind (even zen monks have only > hand-gestures for that un-explainable > realm) but this "guru" recalls his > "inner-experiences" of it huh! talking > about delusion -and A refers to him as > the God on earth today. I hope he is > joking <grin> what is your take on this? > > ~love you Karta~ > > RamanaMaharshi, "netemara888" <netemara888> wrote: > > Fabulous. Thank you. I recognize the Maha Sunn, great void, I've > > been there many times in meditation. But I believe you have to cross > > it and then at that point the mind is left behind. I have not > > crossed it, but been to the edges of its great blackness and expanse. > > > > Love > > > > Net > > > > ******************* > > > > > > > > > > > > - In RamanaMaharshi, "satkartar5" <mi_nok> wrote: > > > --here is a chart of the planes Sohang is many times used in the > > scriptures it is the indigo colored 4-th plane the great void where > > ones leaves the mind behind.. I think that Advaita is a twist of > > words on the same since there is non other than Brahman. The Void > > makes sese because of the many "negation" used in the practice to the > > many references to Siva one of the that trinity. http://santmat- > > meditation.net/other/planes.jpg > > > > > > --as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all > > of the creation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space > > and causation. Anything that can be experienced can not be the truth, > > but truth can be realized when one merges. (5-the plane) > > > > > > The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the > > intellect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat > > meditation have 5 planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, > > Advaita would call it the pure Self of Brahman > > > > > > ~all ove Karta~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Net: I don't mean to be picky but it's not so much as "I am that" as it is that there is no one and no that. The differentiation between subject and object is an illusion. "I am that", as I hear is said typically, represents the ideal where a spiritual seeker feels or believes that they somehow become identified with God in a kind of self-glorifying way. In truth, I understand that it's more like getting into an elevator and having the floor drop out in that everything "we" think is "us" dissolves and there is no "one" left. Mark In Sant Mat satsang and tradition we are given names which correspond with stages of Self-Realization, although it is not called that, and one of the highest stages is represented by the name "Sohang" which means "I am That" and is for all intents and purposes the Self recognizing Self, perhaps that does not translate, but you know what I mean. I think it represents Par Brahm, have to look it up to be sure, then Sat Lok. How does this fit in with the teachings of Ramana? Anyone.... Net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Hello Karta: Planes are manifestations and objects to a subject. Ultimate realization is the penetration of the differentiation between a "seer" and an object. It isn't a matter of getting to another plane, it's a matter of utterly dissolving the illusion of being an "entity" that perceives. All objects are projections of mind whether they are divine planes or a pair of worn shoes. Mark as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the creation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causation. Anything that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be realized when one merges. (5-the plabe) The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the intellect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditation have 5 planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it the pure Self of Brahman ~love Karta~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Karta: There is no "we", no point, no differentiation from a void, no separate worlds. Time and space are mental constructs that are not real in ultimate realization. This is what Bhagavan meant when he said "Where can I go? I am here." God is not a plane because God is not an object that is somehow separate. This isn't the same as Advaita. Mark as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the creation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causation. Anything that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be realized when one merges. (5-the plabe) The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the intellect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditation have 5 planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it the pure Self of Brahman ~love Karta~ RamanaMaharshi, "satkartar5" <mi_nok> wrote: > --here is a chart of the planes Sohang is many times used in the scriptures it is the indigo colored 4-th plane the great void where ones leaves the mind behind.. IMHO Advaita is a twist of words on the same, since there is non other than Brahman. What you are saying Net: the Voin makes sense to me because of the many "negation" used in the practice and the many references to Siva the "destroyer" one of the Brahman trinity. http://santmat-meditation.net/other/planes.jpg > > > ~all love Karta~ > > RamanaMaharshi, "netemara888" <netemara888> wrote: > > In Sant Mat satsang and tradition we are given names which correspond > > with stages of Self-Realization, although it is not called that, and > > one of the highest stages is represented by the name "Sohang" which > > means "I am That" and is for all intents and purposes the Self > > recognizing Self, perhaps that does not translate, but you know what > > I mean. I think it represents Par Brahm, have to look it up to be > > sure, then Sat Lok. > > > > How does this fit in with the teachings of Ramana? > > > > Anyone.... > > > > Net Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi- List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/RamanaMaharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 dear Mark, I think this is psycho-linguistic hairsplitting, or your zen tra= ining I dunno <smile> I didn't say any of what you answered to; you answered to your interpretation and are dicribing the seco= nd of the realization. (merger) I stress repeatedly, that the essence of both realization is the same, but my realization prior to the final second= was on a time table (however, I know that time is NOT <grin>) so it had a beginning and an end, and up to point of realization I traveled through "planes". (it is a noun, not an= object) plus the same time I went through spiritual-physiological phenomena as des= cribed in Kundalini yoga. You might had an instantaneous realization outside of time not related to y= our body, right at the moment of your birth¿, or what ever.. ~ Karta ~ ----------- Karta: as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the cre= ation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causation. Any= thing that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be realize= d when one merges. (5-th plane) The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the intel= lect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditation have 5= planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it the pu= re Self of Brahman. Mark: Planes are manifestations and objects to a subject. Ultimate realization is= the penetration of the differentiation between a "seer" and an object. It i= sn't a matter of getting to another plane, it's a matter of utterly dissolvi= ng the illusion of being an "entity" that perceives. All objects are project= ions of mind whether they are divine planes or a pair of worn shoes. There is no "we", no point, no differentiation from a void, no separate wor= lds. Time and space are mental constructs that are not real in ultimate real= ization. This is what Bhagavan meant when he said "Where can I go? I am here= .." God is not a plane because God is not an object that is somehow separate.= This isn't the same as Advaita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote: > Net: > > I don't mean to be picky but it's not so much as "I am that" as it is that there > is no one and no that. The differentiation between subject and object is > an illusion. > "I am that", as I hear is said typically, represents the ideal where a spiritual > seeker feels or believes that they somehow become identified with God in > a kind of self-glorifying way. In truth, I understand that it's more like getting > into an elevator and having the floor drop out in that everything "we" think is > "us" dissolves and there is no "one" left. > > Mark **********8 Okay, that is what I am trying to understand Mark. So, the way I see it both definitions are both correct, but my question is this "are they the same?" And implied in my question, they could not be the same: "I am That" suggests duality at this state. My question Sohang, which is sort of an aggrandizement a realization of God is within statement, the same as Self-Realization, and you say it is not. That is fine, it SHOULD not be because Sohang is a plane construct found just below Sat Lok, true home and therefore there is one last stage. Perhaps describing this as planes is misleading. I like to think of it as successive stages in revelation leading to the realization of the Self, as a stage (if you will) rather than a plane of existence. You did answer my question it is not the same, just as I thought. On another forum I wrote "If everything is energy, then the question of 'Who' does not arise does it?" In answer to someone talking about God and energy in a personal, you and me sort of way, or duality understanding, and that phrase came to me. Thanks for your clarification. I don't think you were being picky. Net ************* > > In Sant Mat satsang and tradition we are given names which correspond > with stages of Self-Realization, although it is not called that, and > one of the highest stages is represented by the name "Sohang" which > means "I am That" and is for all intents and purposes the Self > recognizing Self, perhaps that does not translate, but you know what > I mean. I think it represents Par Brahm, have to look it up to be > sure, then Sat Lok. > > How does this fit in with the teachings of Ramana? > > Anyone.... > > Net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Mark, I'll have to work a lot, really a lot before I'll be silent non-reactive and less emotional <smile> sorry! You provably noticed by my hastily written and fast deleted letter: my first reaction to one of your post. If someone doesn't agree with me my first reaction is sarcastic and on the offensive. Since than I realised, that you are teaching me in good-will about the non-dual thought. Which I took for granted; since Ramana bestowed His grace upon me, and I also discovered a twofold short-cut to recall the awareness-watching awareness state from memory. I labelled this a state to be one with god's will without any "gap" in time; act spontaneously from BEING without the interference of the mind's chit-chat etc. I do belive, that some realizations are instantaneous satori-like and than later the state can be recalled. What do you think? I see at the Nisargadatta club they seem to belive so too. So I thought I mastered the non-dual state without practice and effort and without knowing how to practice vichara from books. -- I dunno ~hamsha hamsha hamsha smile k~ RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote: > Hello Karta: > > Planes are manifestations and objects to a subject. Ultimate realization is > the penetration of the differentiation > between a "seer" and an object. It isn't a matter of getting to another > plane, it's a matter of utterly dissolving the illusion of being an "entity" > that perceives. All objects are projections of mind whether they are divine > planes or a pair of worn shoes. > > Mark > > > as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the > creation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causation. > Anything that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be > realized when one merges. (5-the plabe) > > The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the > intellect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditation > have 5 planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it > the pure Self of Brahman > > ~love Karta~ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Karta: This isn't hairsplitting, this is understanding the teaching accurately so correct practice can be done. If I may be direct, you insist or reorganizing Bhagavan's Advaita teaching to fit into your Sant Mat model and it doesn't work. It almost seems like you are refusing to understand what is being said to you. You continue to describe dualistic principles and dualistic realization. That's fine, there's noting wrong with that as it stands. However, you add to it by saying this is the same as Bhagavan's teaching and by doing so your are distorting Bhagavan's teaching which I'm frankly not going to let you do that. I may be getting a bit heavy here but I'm not going to let Bhagavan's teaching be misrepresented or distorted. His teaching is clear and deceptively simple. He taught inquiry using "Who am I?" When you breathe, inquire eat, inquire meditate, inquire walk, inquire work, inquire hear shabd, inquire see visions, inquire see god, inquire visit other planes, inquire fly in a plane, inquire Inquiry is the practice until all vasanas are overcome. This is his teaching in it's pure and simple form and there isn't anything else. No kundalini, no visions, no planes, etc. Mark dear Mark, I think this is psycho-linguistic hairsplitting, or your zen tra= ining I dunno <smile> I didn't say any of what you answered to; you answered to your interpretation and are dicribing the seco= nd of the realization. (merger) I stress repeatedly, that the essence of both realization is the same, but my realization prior to the final second= was on a time table (however, I know that time is NOT <grin>) so it had a beginning and an end, and up to point of realization I traveled through "planes". (it is a noun, not an= object) plus the same time I went through spiritual-physiological phenomena as des= cribed in Kundalini yoga. You might had an instantaneous realization outside of time not related to y= our body, right at the moment of your birth¿, or what ever.. ~ Karta ~ ----------- Karta: as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the cre= ation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causation. Any= thing that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be realize= d when one merges. (5-th plane) The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the intel= lect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditation have 5= planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it the pu= re Self of Brahman. Mark: Planes are manifestations and objects to a subject. Ultimate realization is= the penetration of the differentiation between a "seer" and an object. It i= sn't a matter of getting to another plane, it's a matter of utterly dissolvi= ng the illusion of being an "entity" that perceives. All objects are project= ions of mind whether they are divine planes or a pair of worn shoes. There is no "we", no point, no differentiation from a void, no separate wor= lds. Time and space are mental constructs that are not real in ultimate real= ization. This is what Bhagavan meant when he said "Where can I go? I am here= ." God is not a plane because God is not an object that is somehow separate.= This isn't the same as Advaita. Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi- List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/RamanaMaharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 dear Mark, first of all thank you for being patience with me. I hope I neve= r said that Bhagavan's teachings are the same as Sant Mat, what I mean and t= alk about is THE STATE ACHIEVED BY ANY "TOOL" by a method OF SPIRITUAL PRACTICE, IMHO. ARE the same, or at least very very similar. You always tell me they= are not. What you say here is what I'm doing: "Who > am I?" > When you breathe, inquire > eat, inquire > meditate, inquire > walk, inquire > work, inquire > hear shabd, inquire > see visions, inquire > see god, inquire > visit other planes, inquire > fly in a plane, inquire > Inquiry is the practice until all vasanas are overcome. This is his > teaching in... Since I'm not familiar with the non-dualist terminology it all sounds to me as a twist on the SAME. I admit this is my "bag" I'm making a page about how I perceive the spiritu= al path being the same, see the view below. I'm not striving after "enlightening" experiences; they are momentary how-e= ver I'm successful in recalling the high states I had.. -- it seems to me, that there is a difference between Ramana's and Nisargadatta's teaching and I'm closer to his "getting it" and than keeping the awareness than doing meditation (and you are right here I KNOW THAT THE highest easiest most natural and primal meditation is the inner-light and sound one) ~love Karta; by the way english is my second language ~ The VIEW: For me ALL the path are similar and Swami Sivananda summed up the way to God-realization (enlightenment etc): 1. constant remembrance of God, 2. cultivating virtues 3. spiritualizing your activities. *SANT MAT: 1.Nonviolence 2.Truthfulness 3.Selfcontrol 4.Humility 5.Being Content Nonviolence: in word; means no back-biting, in action: not to harm oneself with a harmful lifestyle and no= killing; thus observing the vegetarian diet. Truthfulness: to oneself and to others This includes no lying, no illegal gain and honesty in business, cleanliness in thought action and speech. livelihood. Avoid: Anger Lying Egotism Envy Vanity and Lust *BUDDHISM: 1.Right Understanding 2.Right thoughts 3.Right Speech 4 Right Action 5 Right Livelihood 6 Right Effort 7.Right Mindfulness 8.Right Concentration (Samadhi) *DZOGCHEN: Five Celestial Buddhas. Each of the other four presides over one of the cardinal points of the compass: Akshobhya, Amoghasiddhi,, Amitab= ha, and Ratnasambhava. Vairochana serves as the central deity. Each of these Buddhas is also associated with one of the five afflictions of the human personality: 1.confusion 2,pride 3.envy 3.hatred 4.and desire *YOGA: 1.YAMA: attitudes toward our enviroment 2.NIYAMA: attitudes towards selves 3.ASANA: practice of body exercises 4.PRANAYAMA: breathing exercises 5.PRATYAHARA: restraint of senses 6.DHARANA: right understanding 7.DHYANA: attention, meditation 8.SAMADHI: complete intergration *ADVAITA: (recommends the same as Swami) There are two Nirvikalpas: the internal: the mind completely merges in the inmost Being and is aware of nothing else the external: the mind is absorbed in the Self, the sense of world still prevails without a reaction from within. When the external and the internal Nirvikalpa are realised as identical, the ultimate goal, Sahaja Nirvikalpa Samadhi is been reached. The mind obscures the innate awareness (or intrinsic awareness) RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote: > Karta: > > This isn't hairsplitting, this is understanding the teaching accurately s= o > correct practice can be done. > If I may be direct, you insist or reorganizing Bhagavan's Advaita teachin= g > to fit into your Sant Mat model > and it doesn't work. It almost seems like you are refusing to understand= > what is being said to you. You continue to describe dualistic principles= > and dualistic realization. That's fine, there's noting wrong with that a= s > it stands. However, you add to it by saying this is the same as Bhagavan= 's > teaching and by doing so your are distorting Bhagavan's teaching which I'= m > frankly not going to let you do that. I may be getting a bit heavy here = but > I'm not going to let Bhagavan's teaching be misrepresented or distorted. > His teaching is clear and deceptively simple. He taught inquiry using "W= ho > am I?" > When you breathe, inquire > eat, inquire > meditate, inquire > walk, inquire > work, inquire > hear shabd, inquire > see visions, inquire > see god, inquire > visit other planes, inquire > fly in a plane, inquire > Inquiry is the practice until all vasanas are overcome. This is his > teaching in it's pure and simple form and there isn't anything else. No > kundalini, no visions, no planes, etc. > > Mark > dear Mark, I think this is psycho-linguistic hairsplitting, or your zen= > tra= > ining I dunno <smile> I didn't say any of what you > answered to; you answered to your interpretation and are dicribing the > seco= > nd of the realization. (merger) > > I stress repeatedly, that the essence of > both realization is the same, but my realization prior to the final > second= > was > on a time table > (however, I know that time is NOT <grin>) > so it had a beginning and an end, and up > to point of realization I traveled through "planes". (it is a noun, not= > an= > object) > plus the same time I went through spiritual-physiological phenomena as > des= > cribed in Kundalini yoga. > > You might had an instantaneous realization outside of time not related = to > y= > our body, > right at the moment of your birth¿, > or what ever.. > > ~ Karta ~ > ----------- > Karta: > as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the= > creation> as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causati= on. > Anything that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be > realized >when one merges. (5-th plane) > > The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the > intellect >to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditati= on have > 5 planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it th= e > pure> Self > of Brahman. > > Mark: > Planes are manifestations and objects to a subject. Ultimate realizatio= n > is= > the penetration of the differentiation between a "seer" and an object. = It > i= > sn't a matter of getting to another plane, it's a matter of utterly > dissolvi= > ng the illusion of being an "entity" that perceives. All objects are > project= > ions of mind whether they are divine planes or a pair of worn shoes. > > There is no "we", no point, no differentiation from a void, no separate= > wor= > lds. Time and space are mental constructs that are not real in ultimate= > real= > ization. This is what Bhagavan meant when he said "Where can I go? I am= > here= > ." God is not a plane because God is not an object that is somehow > separate.= > This isn't the same as Advaita. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Karta: I'm describing the practice that Bhagavan taught. It's Vichara, it's inquiry. It's continually penetrating into all experience by constantly using an inquiry like asking "Who am I?" If you don't know what I'm referring to, and it appears you don't, you won't get what Bhagavan is teaching since this IS his teaching. I highly recommend that you read "Who Am I?" before you ask more questions because Bhagavan does a much better job of explaining his teaching for obvious reasons. I'm including with this message two attachments for you and anyone else to read. They're available for free from the official Maharshi web site. These are Word Document versions of "Who Am I?", "Spiritual Instructions" and "Self Inquiry." Please read these and most of your questions will be answered. Mark By the way, the link to the official site for Bhagavan is: http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/ what do you mean? "Who > am I?" > When you breathe, inquire > eat, inquire > meditate, inquire > walk, inquire > work, inquire > hear shabd, inquire > see visions, inquire > see god, inquire > visit other planes, inquire > fly in a plane, inquire > Inquiry is the practice until all vasanas are overcome. This is his > teaching in ... ~k~ RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote: > Karta: > > This isn't hairsplitting, this is understanding the teaching accurately s= o > correct practice can be done. > If I may be direct, you insist or reorganizing Bhagavan's Advaita teachin= g > to fit into your Sant Mat model > and it doesn't work. It almost seems like you are refusing to understand= > what is being said to you. You continue to describe dualistic principles= > and dualistic realization. That's fine, there's noting wrong with that a= s > it stands. However, you add to it by saying this is the same as Bhagavan= 's > teaching and by doing so your are distorting Bhagavan's teaching which I'= m > frankly not going to let you do that. I may be getting a bit heavy here = but > I'm not going to let Bhagavan's teaching be misrepresented or distorted. > His teaching is clear and deceptively simple. He taught inquiry using "W= ho > am I?" > When you breathe, inquire > eat, inquire > meditate, inquire > walk, inquire > work, inquire > hear shabd, inquire > see visions, inquire > see god, inquire > visit other planes, inquire > fly in a plane, inquire > Inquiry is the practice until all vasanas are overcome. This is his > teaching in it's pure and simple form and there isn't anything else. No > kundalini, no visions, no planes, etc. > > Mark > dear Mark, I think this is psycho-linguistic hairsplitting, or your zen= > tra= > ining I dunno <smile> I didn't say any of what you > answered to; you answered to your interpretation and are dicribing the > seco= > nd of the realization. (merger) > > I stress repeatedly, that the essence of > both realization is the same, but my realization prior to the final > second= > was > on a time table > (however, I know that time is NOT <grin>) > so it had a beginning and an end, and up > to point of realization I traveled through "planes". (it is a noun, not= > an= > object) > plus the same time I went through spiritual-physiological phenomena as > des= > cribed in Kundalini yoga. > > You might had an instantaneous realization outside of time not related = to > y= > our body, > right at the moment of your birth¿, > or what ever.. > > ~ Karta ~ > ----------- > Karta: > as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the= > cre= > ation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causation= . > Any= > thing that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be > realize= > d when one merges. (5-th plane) > > The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the > intel= > lect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditation h= ave > 5= > planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it th= e > pu= > re Self > of Brahman. > > Mark: > Planes are manifestations and objects to a subject. Ultimate realizatio= n > is= > the penetration of the differentiation between a "seer" and an object. = It > i= > sn't a matter of getting to another plane, it's a matter of utterly > dissolvi= > ng the illusion of being an "entity" that perceives. All objects are > project= > ions of mind whether they are divine planes or a pair of worn shoes. > > There is no "we", no point, no differentiation from a void, no separate= > wor= > lds. Time and space are mental constructs that are not real in ultimate= > real= > ization. This is what Bhagavan meant when he said "Where can I go? I am= > here= > ." God is not a plane because God is not an object that is somehow > separate.= > This isn't the same as Advaita. > > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o... > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o... > > Shortcut URL to this page: > /community/RamanaMaharshi > > > > > > Sponsor Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi- List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/RamanaMaharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 Thank you Mark, I understand the teaching, what I don't understand is your interpretation of it and what made you me posting this to come to Ramana's defence, what is wrong here according to you? my post: "--as I understand it we are a point in the void and we created all of the creation as an ego: the unique three worlds - of time, space and causation. Anything that can be experienced can not be the truth, but truth can be realized when one merges. (5-the plane) The non dual is prior to all things, but it is impossible for the intellect to follow there. One leaves the mind behind. Sant Mat meditation have 5 planes the 5-th being the so called God-plane, Advaita would call it the pure Self of Brahman" I like to suggest in return for you to read these books: Robert de Ropp, The Master Game: What games did these mystics play? Within the matrix imposed by their religion, these players were attempting the most difficult game of all, the Master Game, the aim of which is the attainment of full consciousness or real awakening. It was natural for these players to play their game within a religious matrix. The basic idea underlying all the great religions is that man is asleep, that he lives amid dreams and delusions, that he cuts himself off from the universal consciousness (the only meaningful definition of God) to crawl into the narrow shell of a personal ego. To emerge from this narrow shell, to regain union with the universal consciousness, to pass from the darkness of the ego-centered illusion into the light of non-ego, this was the real aim of the Religion Game as defined by the great teachers, Jesus, Gautama, Krishna, Mahavira, Lao-tze and the Platonic Socrates. (page 19) http://www.healthy.net/books/bk_ShoppingCart.asp?ItemNumber=0385286325 --and this by an other Hungarian: Laszlo Horvath The Master Game begins when we recognize the difference between life games. There are Object games, as in the attainment of material objects, and Subjective games in which spirit and salvation of soul is the goal. De Ropp made a distinction between religious practice and the real Master Game. Religion belongs to a subjective game of salvation within the framework of a belief structure; while, the Master Game is a quest for awakening, samadhi, satori, nirvana, gnosis or cosmic consciousness, beyond belief or faith -- to actual experience. Cosmic consciousness meaning: being conscious of the order of the universe. Not as a belief, but something real to be experienced. A fundamental Game premise: our ordinary state of consciousness, our so-called waking state, is not the highest level of consciousness attainable to human beings. There is more, and by following the wisdom handed down through the ages by Game players, people have a chance to attain an elevated state of mind beyond the norm. In traditional terms, this state of consciousness represents spiritual freedom. http://www.awe-struck.net/PREVIEWS/motg_prv.html ~k~ RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote: > Karta: > > I'm describing the practice that Bhagavan taught. It's Vichara, it's > inquiry. > It's continually penetrating into all experience by constantly using an > inquiry > like asking "Who am I?" > If you don't know what I'm referring to, and it appears you don't, you won't > get what Bhagavan is teaching since this IS his teaching. I highly > recommend > that you read "Who Am I?" before you ask more questions because Bhagavan > does a much better job of explaining his teaching for obvious reasons. > I'm including with this message two attachments for you and anyone else to > read. They're available for free from the official Maharshi web site. > These are > Word Document versions of "Who Am I?", "Spiritual Instructions" and "Self > Inquiry." > Please read these and most of your questions will be answered. > > Mark > > By the way, the link to the official site for Bhagavan is: > http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/ > Bhagavan's > > teaching and by doing so your are distorting Bhagavan's teaching which > I'= > m > > frankly not going to let you do that. I may be getting a bit heavy here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 1, 2002 Report Share Posted July 1, 2002 thanks Mark for you patience, along the lines of the quotes bellow my question was; what is te diference between keeing your awareness on your aw= areness all dat and doing vichara all day. M: Vichara is a moment to moment practice that encompasses all. Mark: Bhagavan points to the utter dissolution of a separate self which is = behind any or all experience Your awareness watching your awareness while ignoring thought. Automatically the "your" (and me and mine) will drop off and it will be obvious that awareness watching awareness is really awareness abiding in or being awareness" Ramana My question is: to practice > > non-duality is it not keeping your > > awareness on awareness as a state? > > and keep this beingness all day > > (vipassana)? --or is > > Ramana's teaching based more on constant practice vichara as meditation= ? ~k~ RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote: > Karta: > > This isn't hairsplitting, this is understanding the teaching accurately s= o > correct practice can be done. > If I may be direct, you insist or reorganizing Bhagavan's Advaita teachin= g > to fit into your Sant Mat model > and it doesn't work. It almost seems like you are refusing to understand= > what is being said to you. You continue to describe dualistic principles= > and dualistic realization. That's fine, there's noting wrong with that a= s > it stands. However, you add to it by saying this is the same as Bhagavan= 's > teaching and by doing so your are distorting Bhagavan's teaching which I'= m > frankly not going to let you do that. I may be getting a bit heavy here = but > I'm not going to let Bhagavan's teaching be misrepresented or distorted. > His teaching is clear and deceptively simple. He taught inquiry using "W= ho > am I?" > When you breathe, inquire > eat, inquire > meditate, inquire > walk, inquire > work, inquire > hear shabd, inquire > see visions, inquire > see god, inquire > visit other planes, inquire > fly in a plane, inquire > Inquiry is the practice until all vasanas are overcome. This is his > teaching in it's pure and simple form and there isn't anything else. No > kundalini, no visions, no planes, etc. > > Mark > dear Mark, I think this is psycho-linguistic hairsplitting, or your zen= > tra= > ining I dunno <smile> I didn't say any of what you > answered to; you answered to your interpretation and are dicribing the > seco= > nd of the realization. (merger) > > I stress repeatedly, that the essence of > both realization is the same, but my realization prior to the final > second= > was > on a time table > (however, I know that time is NOT <grin>) > so it had a beginning and an end, and up > to point of realization I traveled through "planes". (it is a noun, not= > an= > object) > plus the same time I went through spiritual-physiological phenomena as > des= > cribed in Kundalini yoga. > > You might had an instantaneous realization outside of time not related = to > y= > our body, > right at the moment of your birth¿, > or what ever.. > > ~ Karta ~ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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