Guest guest Posted July 16, 2002 Report Share Posted July 16, 2002 self_realization_dialogues, "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: Dear Alton, the true silence is not an experience of an individual I but the merging of the I in the Self. So it is of another quality. We all have a natural glimpse about what it is in some very short moments: directly after awakening before the I-thought arises, in the very short moment between two thoughts, when we are overwhelmed by beauty ... we all know it, but have forgotten and are not aware as it is always superimposed by thoughts. This is what I don't glean from the sages - and you also don't. This is also your experience. So you know exactly what it is about, we all know. That's the big joke, we think we don't know but it is wellknown to each. Comments invited. Love Gabriele I forward this also to Ramana-group. Hope this is ok? self_realization_dialogues, "I-I" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > Dear Gabriele: > I take issue to your statement: "As long as there is any sensing there is still the I as the experiencer".Since I am not in that state it will only be my opinion on what I gleaned from readings of the sages which I include U.G. > There is sensing but no one sensing? > What is your response? > Love, > Alton > > > Dear Alton, > it can be confusing for the seeker to compare various teachers. > The intellect will be very much engaged with it. You can do it endlessly - and miss the point. > > Intellectually there may be different approaches to vichara, which may serve as a means at the > beginning, but only when the mind is silent the true vichara happens - and there can't be any > concepts about it. So our effort is to silence the mind and make it centred on the source, as you say. > As long as there is any sensing there is still the I as the experiencer. > Then dive more deep within: who is experiencing the silence? This is done without > words. Ramana says, that the I-I from within takes over then, so we can trust in that. Without this grace > from within - who could succeed? > > When vichara happens it is absolutely clear, no words can express it. It is nothing "new" so you > will recognize it as wellknown - but only forgotten. It is no self-hypnosis - the self-hypnosis is when swerving > away from the SELF: this is our own brain-washing, the disease. > > In HIM > Gabriele > > Alton: > Two questions starting with the following. > Ramana advises meditating on the Self as the subject. Is that really just another object to meditate on? > > One starts with some words to help quiet the mind. Nisargadatta suggests repeating the words "I Am" and refusing all thoughts and feelings except the "I Am" sense of conscious presence. Then when a seeker is more advanced he advises to drop the words and do it silently. > > Ramana suggests the "to whom" series of questions ending in "Who Am I" but for an advanced seeker one meditates on the Self, which is the Subject or "I Am" without words. All this to my knowledge is called Self Inquiry. > > During this process I noticed that one can sweep away thoughts with the mindfulness broom or if one is gifted one may have enough exclusive focus to mediate on the Subject, But even when the mind is quiet there is still that sensing, so that becomes the object of meditation. Nisargadatta has also said that it is all sensing unless the attention eats up the attention, then you may go to the no- knowingness deep dark blue state. > > It this how you see the process? Feel free to correct my take on this. > > Next question: > If we succeed in this Self Inquiry and realize the Self, is it just self hypnosis? We have studied the teachings of the sages and are fully convinced, maybe through brain washing, that it is true. > Will be then become Ramana Self hypnotized clones? > > Thanks to anyone who has the knowledge to answer these questions. > Aloha, Sponsor > > > > > > self_realization_dialogues- > > > > Terms of Service. --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2002 Report Share Posted July 16, 2002 Aloha Alton, Gabriel says it well. As long as there is the experienced there is the experiencer. The Nondual Self is where the experience, experienced and experiencer are all one and the same. If there is an object there is a subject. This is what the sages of old say. This is what today's teachers say. What we seekers are to do is to verify how this is true in our experience. In the paragraph above I passed on a teaching that I have heard a number of times: "How does one know that something spiritual is true?" If it is what sages of old taught, and If it is what present day teachers teach, and If it is reasonable (to our intellect), and If it is verified by our own (meditative) experience, Then it is probably true. Remember that we have the teachings of several thousand's of years of teaching from sages who spent their lives realizing and teaching the spiritual inner truth. It turns out that there is nothing new in the timeless wisdom. What I have found in my own practice is that if I want to argue with the teachers (ancient or present day), that my energy is much better spent on seeing how what they say is true for myself. The teaching I hope to represent accurately is from living teachers, and from many specific questions and answers over more than ten years, not from a book. I have verified in my own experience as much of the teaching as I can access through my own practice, and my experiences do NOT in any way in contradict these teachings. If anything, my experience says that the teachers tend to understate. It is possible, that even with your good efforts and the wonderful words in the books that you continue to read and use, that without a living teacher, that your ego still runs some part of your practice. For me, one thing that is so important about having a teacher is that my ego is no longer the final authority, Whew, what a relief! We are Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "gabriele_ebert" <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > self_realization_dialogues, "gabriele_ebert" > <g.ebert@g...> wrote: > Dear Alton, > the true silence is not an experience of an individual I but the > merging of the I in the Self. So it is of another quality. We all > have a natural glimpse about what it is in some very short moments: > directly after awakening before the I-thought arises, in the very > short moment between two thoughts, when we are overwhelmed by > beauty ... we all know it, but have forgotten and are not aware as it > is always superimposed by thoughts. This is what I don't glean from > the sages - and you also don't. This is also your experience. So you > know exactly what it is about, we all know. That's the big joke, we > think we don't know but it is wellknown to each. > Comments invited. > > Love > Gabriele > > I forward this also to Ramana-group. Hope this is ok? > > self_realization_dialogues, "I-I" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > Dear Gabriele: > > I take issue to your statement: "As long as there is any sensing > there is still the I as the experiencer".Since I am not in that state > it will only be my opinion on what I gleaned from readings of the > sages which I include U.G. > > There is sensing but no one sensing? > > What is your response? > > Love, > > Alton > > > > > > Dear Alton, > > it can be confusing for the seeker to compare various teachers. > > The intellect will be very much engaged with it. You can do it > endlessly - and miss the point. > > > > Intellectually there may be different approaches to vichara, > which may serve as a means at the > > beginning, but only when the mind is silent the true vichara > happens - and there can't be any > > concepts about it. So our effort is to silence the mind and make > it centred on the source, as you say. > > As long as there is any sensing there is still the I as the > experiencer. > > Then dive more deep within: who is experiencing the silence? This > is done without > > words. Ramana says, that the I-I from within takes over then, so > we can trust in that. Without this grace > > from within - who could succeed? > > > > When vichara happens it is absolutely clear, no words can express > it. It is nothing "new" so you > > will recognize it as wellknown - but only forgotten. It is no > self-hypnosis - the self-hypnosis is when swerving > > away from the SELF: this is our own brain-washing, the disease. > > > > In HIM > > Gabriele > > > > Alton: > > Two questions starting with the following. > > Ramana advises meditating on the Self as the subject. Is that > really just another object to meditate on? > > > > One starts with some words to help quiet the mind. Nisargadatta > suggests repeating the words "I Am" and refusing all thoughts and > feelings except the "I Am" sense of conscious presence. Then when a > seeker is more advanced he advises to drop the words and do it > silently. > > > > Ramana suggests the "to whom" series of questions ending in "Who > Am I" but for an advanced seeker one meditates on the Self, which is > the Subject or "I Am" without words. All this to my knowledge is > called Self Inquiry. > > > > During this process I noticed that one can sweep away thoughts > with the mindfulness broom or if one is gifted one may have enough > exclusive focus to mediate on the Subject, But even when the mind is > quiet there is still that sensing, so that becomes the object of > meditation. Nisargadatta has also said that it is all sensing unless > the attention eats up the attention, then you may go to the no- > knowingness deep dark blue state. > > > > It this how you see the process? Feel free to correct my take on > this. > > > > Next question: > > If we succeed in this Self Inquiry and realize the Self, is it > just self hypnosis? We have studied the teachings of the sages and > are fully convinced, maybe through brain washing, that it is true. > > Will be then become Ramana Self hypnotized clones? > > > > Thanks to anyone who has the knowledge to answer these questions. > > Aloha, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > > > > > > > self_realization_dialogues- > > > > > > > > Terms of > Service. > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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