Guest guest Posted August 3, 2002 Report Share Posted August 3, 2002 Dear Gabriele: I was concerned that some of the Ramana Bhaktis might react unpleasantly. Here are my views on the subject. If someone presents issues that confront directly what I am doing and or believing and it causes a reaction; it means that I going into agreement at least to some extent. I myself love my two teachers and abide in what Nisargadatta has said in 'I Am That". It is the Guru's words and not the Guru. If a time comes when I have followed his guidelines in giving up attachments and holding on to the "I Am" without words and I don't realized the Self, then I will seek a living guru. What I see in Gabriele is such a faith in the deceased Ramana that mountains can be moved. There was a young women here into a spiritual trip that developed breast cancer. She choose not to go for medical treatment, but took all the possible alternative medicine and dietary interventions. Her condition became terminal and before she died she said that she made a mistake. If she felt that what she did was right there would be no mistake. The same goes for you. If your faith is so great in Ramana that even though you never realize the Self with a dead guru, then you have the requisite faith necessary. If you don't realized the Self and I do, then I will tell Ramana to send his true devotee to Alton. grin.. Dear Alton and All, dear Alton, I like your posting out of No Mind very much. But what Sri Lakshaman says here - I also have heared from other teachers - that a living guru is absolutely necessary, is not in full agreeable to me as he means in this context with "living" a guru in the body. This would clearly mean that we all who trust only in the guiding presence of Guru Ramana are wrong and we have to look for another guru in the body. So - now??? In HIM Gabriele > Sri Lakshmana further insists that only a living human Guru has enough power to bring a devotee to Self-realization. Some times he will admit that in very rare instances the unmanifest Self may bring about Self-realization, but he will usually add that this can only happen with devotees who have virtually completed sadhana in previous lives. > > Swamy: A living human Guru is essential for Self-realization. It is the Self, acting through the medium of the Guru, which finally destroys the ego, and only the human Guru can act as the medium. When > the Guru gives up his body, the Self can no longer use him to destroy devotees' egos. > Question: Ramana Maharshi realized the Self without any effort and without a Guru. How was this possible? > Swamy: He was a very advanced soul who had almost completed his sadhana in his previous lives. > Question: If the Guru cannot provide help after his death, what is the devotee to do when the Guru gives up the body? > Swamy: If the devotee wants to realize the Self he should try to find another Guru who has realized the Self. Other wise it will be extremely difficult. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Dear Alton, my reply was on Million Path but I choose to answer you here as your answer is here also. We have still had the point about Ramana in this group here not so long ago. Ramana is no more in the body but many experience him as a living guru and I don't think I am wrong to say that also after he left the body he has lead many to self realization. The guiding force is there as it was during his lifetime. Before he left the body he said several times to his devotee: "I am not going away. Where could I go. I am here." This says clearly that we can trust in full in his powerful guidance today and for ever as we could more than 50 years ago when he lived at Arunachala. Because of that my reaction to Lakshmana's general statement. For many it will of course be good to have a guru in the body. I don't say anything against. Each one has to find out for himself. But for me personally - I know for sure I will never find such a one like Sadguru Ramana in the whole world. So why go for searching a guru? I simply believe what he has said and his powerful guidance which can be experienced day by day. Where could I go? Really, where could I go? If he is here - then I can also stay where I am - or not? Here I am really like an unmovable mountain - LOL. You are right, nothing will bring me away from that. But Alton, perhaps you will find one day a guru in the body for you. You must find out for yourself what is good for you. I don't say that what is in my case must be so for all - each one should stay where he /she feels naturally drawn to. In HIM Gabriele RamanaMaharshi, "I-I" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > Dear Gabriele: > I was concerned that some of the Ramana Bhaktis might react unpleasantly. > > Here are my views on the subject. > If someone presents issues that confront directly what I am doing and or believing and it causes a reaction; it means that I going into agreement at least to some extent. > > I myself love my two teachers and abide in what Nisargadatta has said in 'I Am That". It is the Guru's words and not the Guru. > If a time comes when I have followed his guidelines in giving up attachments and holding on to the "I Am" without words and I don't realized the Self, then I will seek a living guru. > > What I see in Gabriele is such a faith in the deceased Ramana that mountains can be moved. > > There was a young women here into a spiritual trip that developed breast cancer. She choose not to go for medical treatment, but took all the possible alternative medicine and dietary interventions. > Her condition became terminal and before she died she said that she made a mistake. If she felt that what she did was right there would be no mistake. The same goes for you. If your faith is so great in Ramana that even though you never realize the Self with a dead guru, then you have the requisite faith necessary. If you don't realized the Self and I do, then I will tell Ramana to send his true devotee to Alton. grin.. > > > Dear Alton and All, > dear Alton, I like your posting out of No Mind very much. > But what Sri Lakshaman says here - I also have heared from other > teachers - that a living guru is absolutely necessary, is not in full > agreeable to me as he means in this context with "living" a guru in > the body. This would clearly mean that we all who trust only in the > guiding presence of Guru Ramana are wrong and we have to look for > another guru in the body. So - now??? > In HIM > Gabriele > > > Sri Lakshmana further insists that only a living human Guru has > enough power to bring a devotee to Self-realization. Some times he > will admit that in very rare instances the unmanifest Self may bring > about Self-realization, but he will usually add that this can only > happen with devotees who have virtually completed sadhana in previous > lives. > > > > Swamy: A living human Guru is essential for Self- realization. It > is the Self, acting through the medium of the Guru, which finally > destroys the ego, and only the human Guru can act as the medium. When > > the Guru gives up his body, the Self can no longer use him to > destroy devotees' egos. > > Question: Ramana Maharshi realized the Self without any effort and > without a Guru. How was this possible? > > Swamy: He was a very advanced soul who had almost completed his > sadhana in his previous lives. > > Question: If the Guru cannot provide help after his death, what is > the devotee to do when the Guru gives up the body? > > Swamy: If the devotee wants to realize the Self he should try to > find another Guru who has realized the Self. Other wise it will be > extremely difficult. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Gabrielle: It's important to point out that Bhagavan made it clear that those who thought "he" was that "guy" with a body did not understand him properly. He was (is) not something that is or has a body. He was (is) that consciousness that is omniscient and omnipresent. "That" consciousness was never born and never dies and he was totally identified with it. Mark Dear Alton, my reply was on Million Path but I choose to answer you here as your answer is here also. We have still had the point about Ramana in this group here not so long ago. Ramana is no more in the body but many experience him as a living guru and I don't think I am wrong to say that also after he left the body he has lead many to self realization. The guiding force is there as it was during his lifetime. Before he left the body he said several times to his devotee: "I am not going away. Where could I go. I am here." This says clearly that we can trust in full in his powerful guidance today and for ever as we could more than 50 years ago when he lived at Arunachala. Because of that my reaction to Lakshmana's general statement. For many it will of course be good to have a guru in the body. I don't say anything against. Each one has to find out for himself. But for me personally - I know for sure I will never find such a one like Sadguru Ramana in the whole world. So why go for searching a guru? I simply believe what he has said and his powerful guidance which can be experienced day by day. Where could I go? Really, where could I go? If he is here - then I can also stay where I am - or not? Here I am really like an unmovable mountain - LOL. You are right, nothing will bring me away from that. But Alton, perhaps you will find one day a guru in the body for you. You must find out for yourself what is good for you. I don't say that what is in my case must be so for all - each one should stay where he /she feels naturally drawn to. In HIM Gabriele RamanaMaharshi, "I-I" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > Dear Gabriele: > I was concerned that some of the Ramana Bhaktis might react unpleasantly. > > Here are my views on the subject. > If someone presents issues that confront directly what I am doing and or believing and it causes a reaction; it means that I going into agreement at least to some extent. > > I myself love my two teachers and abide in what Nisargadatta has said in 'I Am That". It is the Guru's words and not the Guru. > If a time comes when I have followed his guidelines in giving up attachments and holding on to the "I Am" without words and I don't realized the Self, then I will seek a living guru. > > What I see in Gabriele is such a faith in the deceased Ramana that mountains can be moved. > > There was a young women here into a spiritual trip that developed breast cancer. She choose not to go for medical treatment, but took all the possible alternative medicine and dietary interventions. > Her condition became terminal and before she died she said that she made a mistake. If she felt that what she did was right there would be no mistake. The same goes for you. If your faith is so great in Ramana that even though you never realize the Self with a dead guru, then you have the requisite faith necessary. If you don't realized the Self and I do, then I will tell Ramana to send his true devotee to Alton. grin.. > > > Dear Alton and All, > dear Alton, I like your posting out of No Mind very much. > But what Sri Lakshaman says here - I also have heared from other > teachers - that a living guru is absolutely necessary, is not in full > agreeable to me as he means in this context with "living" a guru in > the body. This would clearly mean that we all who trust only in the > guiding presence of Guru Ramana are wrong and we have to look for > another guru in the body. So - now??? > In HIM > Gabriele > > > Sri Lakshmana further insists that only a living human Guru has > enough power to bring a devotee to Self-realization. Some times he > will admit that in very rare instances the unmanifest Self may bring > about Self-realization, but he will usually add that this can only > happen with devotees who have virtually completed sadhana in previous > lives. > > > > Swamy: A living human Guru is essential for Self- realization. It > is the Self, acting through the medium of the Guru, which finally > destroys the ego, and only the human Guru can act as the medium. When > > the Guru gives up his body, the Self can no longer use him to > destroy devotees' egos. > > Question: Ramana Maharshi realized the Self without any effort and > without a Guru. How was this possible? > > Swamy: He was a very advanced soul who had almost completed his > sadhana in his previous lives. > > Question: If the Guru cannot provide help after his death, what is > the devotee to do when the Guru gives up the body? > > Swamy: If the devotee wants to realize the Self he should try to > find another Guru who has realized the Self. Other wise it will be > extremely difficult. > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi- List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/RamanaMaharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Alton: Referring to your comment below, confusing Bhagavan with a body shows a misunderstanding of him and his total teaching. He made quite clear time and time again that "he" wasn't to be confused with a body and he chided his devotees for continually misunderstanding this. He didn't exist in a body. He didn't even exist in time and said that it was an illusion. You keep trying to bend Bhagavan into your own views of reality that are your constructions and have to connection to his teaching. You don't understand Bhagavan, don't understand what he taught, and don't understand Advaita. Mark What I see in Gabriele is such a faith in the deceased Ramana that mountains can be moved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Dear Mark, yes what you say is in full right. Bhagavan said in his last days very often to devotees: "You give too much importance to the body." Devotees where in anguish to loose him. So he pointed out not being the body and to destroy this misunderstanding. He did not see himself as the body at all which was sick and dying. And that's exactly the point and because of this there is no difference between Bhagavan before and after his mahasamadhi. He was and is and will ever be the same: the SELF and so He continues to guide devotees for ever. In HIM Gabriele RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote: > Gabrielle: > > It's important to point out that Bhagavan made it clear that those who > thought "he" was that > "guy" with a body did not understand him properly. He was (is) not > something that is or has > a body. He was (is) that consciousness that is omniscient and omnipresent. > "That" consciousness > was never born and never dies and he was totally identified with it. > > Mark > > > > Dear Alton, > my reply was on Million Path but I choose to answer you here as your > answer is here also. > We have still had the point about Ramana in this group here not so > long ago. > Ramana is no more in the body but many experience him as a living > guru and I don't think I am wrong to say that also after he left the > body he has lead many to self realization. The guiding force is there > as it was during his lifetime. Before he left the body he said > several times to his devotee: "I am not going away. Where could I go. > I am here." This says clearly that we can trust in full in his > powerful guidance today and for ever as we could more than 50 years > ago when he lived at Arunachala. > Because of that my reaction to Lakshmana's general statement. > For many it will of course be good to have a guru in the body. I > don't say anything against. Each one has to find out for himself. > But for me personally - I know for sure I will never find such a one > like Sadguru Ramana in the whole world. So why go for searching a > guru? I simply believe what he has said and his powerful guidance > which can be experienced day by day. Where could I go? Really, where > could I go? If he is here - then I can also stay where I am - or not? > Here I am really like an unmovable mountain - LOL. You are right, > nothing will bring me away from that. > > But Alton, perhaps you will find one day a guru in the body for you. > You must find out for yourself what is good for you. I don't say that > what is in my case must be so for all - each one should stay where > he /she feels naturally drawn to. > > In HIM > Gabriele > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "I-I" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > > > Dear Gabriele: > > I was concerned that some of the Ramana Bhaktis might react > unpleasantly. > > > > Here are my views on the subject. > > If someone presents issues that confront directly what I am > doing and or believing and it causes a reaction; it means that I > going into agreement at least to some extent. > > > > I myself love my two teachers and abide in what Nisargadatta > has said in 'I Am That". It is the Guru's words and not the Guru. > > If a time comes when I have followed his guidelines in giving > up attachments and holding on to the "I Am" without words and I don't > realized the Self, then I will seek a living guru. > > > > What I see in Gabriele is such a faith in the deceased Ramana > that mountains can be moved. > > > > There was a young women here into a spiritual trip that > developed breast cancer. She choose not to go for medical treatment, > but took all the possible alternative medicine and dietary > interventions. > > Her condition became terminal and before she died she said > that she made a mistake. If she felt that what she did was right > there would be no mistake. The same goes for you. If your faith is so > great in Ramana that even though you never realize the Self with a > dead guru, then you have the requisite faith necessary. If you don't > realized the Self and I do, then I will tell Ramana to send his true > devotee to Alton. grin.. > > > > > > Dear Alton and All, > > dear Alton, I like your posting out of No Mind very much. > > But what Sri Lakshaman says here - I also have heared from > other > > teachers - that a living guru is absolutely necessary, is not > in full > > agreeable to me as he means in this context with "living" a > guru in > > the body. This would clearly mean that we all who trust only > in the > > guiding presence of Guru Ramana are wrong and we have to look > for > > another guru in the body. So - now??? > > In HIM > > Gabriele > > > > > Sri Lakshmana further insists that only a living human Guru > has > > enough power to bring a devotee to Self-realization. Some > times he > > will admit that in very rare instances the unmanifest Self > may bring > > about Self-realization, but he will usually add that this can > only > > happen with devotees who have virtually completed sadhana in > previous > > lives. > > > > > > Swamy: A living human Guru is essential for Self- > realization. It > > is the Self, acting through the medium of the Guru, which > finally > > destroys the ego, and only the human Guru can act as the > medium. When > > > the Guru gives up his body, the Self can no longer use him > to > > destroy devotees' egos. > > > Question: Ramana Maharshi realized the Self without any > effort and > > without a Guru. How was this possible? > > > Swamy: He was a very advanced soul who had almost completed > his > > sadhana in his previous lives. > > > Question: If the Guru cannot provide help after his death, > what is > > the devotee to do when the Guru gives up the body? > > > Swamy: If the devotee wants to realize the Self he should > try to > > find another Guru who has realized the Self. Other wise it > will be > > extremely difficult. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sponsor > > > > > > Post message: RamanaMaharshi@o... > Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > Un: RamanaMaharshi-@o... > List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner@o... > > Shortcut URL to this page: > /community/RamanaMaharshi > > Terms of Service. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 2002 Report Share Posted August 4, 2002 Gabriele: To paraphrase Dogen Zenji, you and I are eyebrow to eyebrow. Mark Dear Mark, yes what you say is in full right. Bhagavan said in his last days very often to devotees: "You give too much importance to the body." Devotees where in anguish to loose him. So he pointed out not being the body and to destroy this misunderstanding. He did not see himself as the body at all which was sick and dying. And that's exactly the point and because of this there is no difference between Bhagavan before and after his mahasamadhi. He was and is and will ever be the same: the SELF and so He continues to guide devotees for ever. In HIM Gabriele Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2002 Report Share Posted August 5, 2002 RamanaMaharshi, "Mark" <milarepa@a...> wrote: > Gabrielle: > > It's important to point out that Bhagavan made it clear that those who > thought "he" was that > "guy" with a body did not understand him properly. He was (is) not > something that is or has > a body. He was (is) that consciousness that is omniscient and omnipresen= t. > "That" consciousness > was never born and never dies and he was totally identified with it. > > Mark Mark, this post is a treasure: .... (is) not something that is or has a body. He was (is) that consciousne= ss that is omniscient and omnipresent. "That" consciousness was never born a= nd never dies and he was totally identified with it ~ om namo baghavate sri ramanaya ~ --I'm having discoussions about reincarnation and your post iluminated the subject.. thanks... SO IT IS THE CONSCIOUSNESS WHICH LIVES FOR IS AND = WILL BE FOR EVER !!¿¿¿ --Mark is it possible; that what some call reincarnation means tuning into = a certain consciousness ? a pool of conscioisness? ....I must say this path is much more 'personal" than any other... since one realy HAS the 'consciousness' while alive, it is not an abstract entity, (god etc..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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