Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 Dear Harsha, Thanks for giving us this link. The articles on your website are quite interesting. I think however that you and David are addressing two different points. David's point was that Bhagavan didn't tell people to voluntarily direct their attention to the right side of the chest as a deliberate technique in meditation practice. If I read your remarks correctly, your point is that Bhagavan often said the spiritual heart center, which is located on the right side of the chest, becomes apparent to people during meditation. These two things are not contradictory. If anybody can find a quotation in which Bhagavan tells people to deliberately focus attention on the right side of the chest as a technique, I would be fascinated to see it. I don't think I've ever seen one. Best regards, Rob - "harshaimtm" <RamanaMaharshi> Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:00 AM [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Yoga - [13] - The Heart of all things > Thanks Vicki for this wonderful service to the devotees of Bhagavan. > I wanted to quote this some time back but did not have the time to > look it up. > > A while back on some list there were some questions raised about the > Heart in the context of what David Godman had said about Sri RAmana's > teachings. I believe Rob (Bhakta - editor realization.org) had raised > some points as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya Dear Rob, > If anybody can find a quotation in which Bhagavan > tells people to deliberately focus attention on the > right side of the chest as a technique, I would be > fascinated to see it. I don't think I've ever seen > one. In Self Enquiry, Bhagavan states, "The loci that are eminently fit for meditation are the Heart and Brahma-randhra (aperture in the crown of the head). One should think that in the middle of the eight-petalled lotus that is at this place there shines like a flame, the Deity which is the Self, i.e. Brahman, and fix the mind therein. After this, one should meditate." Elsewhere, in this text, the location and various revelations on Heart are also given. Ever Yours in Sri Bhagavan, Miles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 Dear Miles, Very good! Thank you. However, this paragraph describes yoga, not self-inquiry, so I don't think it sheds any light on the issue raised by Harsha. Here's a link to the whole text of Self-Enquiry so people can see for themselves: http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/selfenqb.htm The quoted paragraph is part of the answer given by Bhagavan when he is asked, "What are the limbs of yoga?" He then summarizes each of the eight parts of Raja Yoga starting with yama and niyama. He is not giving advice here about how to practice; he is merely describing yoga, because that is what the questioner asked him. This quotation comes from section 27 of the document, but Bhagavan's instructions for self-inquiry appear much earlier, in sections 3 and 4, where he says: > Therefore, making the corpse-body remain as a > corpse, and not even uttering the word "I", one > should enquire keenly thus: "Now, what is it that > rises as 'I'". Then, there would shine in the Heart > a kind of wordless illumination of the form 'I' 'I'. > That is, there would shine of its own accord the > pure consciousness which is unlimited and one, > the limited and the many thoughts having disappeared. He doesn't say to look at the Heart. He says to look closely at the "I" to see what it is, and if you do, the Heart will light up by itself. I don't think this document supports Harsha's contention (although of course he may still be right). Best regards, Rob - "Miles Wright" <ramana.bhakta <RamanaMaharshi> Tuesday, September 10, 2002 6:44 PM Re: [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Yoga - [13] - The Heart of all things > om namo bhagavate sri ramanaya > > Dear Rob, > > > If anybody can find a quotation in which Bhagavan > > tells Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 Ramana said proof that the self resides in the heart is when a person falls asleep his head falls on his chest.. also he said ask a child who are you? they will point to their heart and say me. Though he says none of this really has any reality iIimagine he meant this is so in a relative matter- time environment.. Barb harshaimtm [harsha] Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:06 PM RamanaMaharshi [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Yoga - [13] - The Heart of all things Dear Rob, You are generally right in many things that you state. The experience of the Heart is rare and only comes when meditation has reached a ripeness and a finality and through Grace mind enters Amrita Nadi. Although the experience of the mind merging into the Spiritual Heart is rare, we have sometimes testimony from the Sages that it actually happens and the Self is Known and Realized or more accurately, Recognized. The central issue I had raised earlier was that it was presumptuous of David Godman to question Arthur Osborne's understanding of Sri Ramana's teaching, especially Bhagavan's teaching on the Heart. The reason for that is simple. Arthur Osborne had the benefit of contact with Bhagavan and had many conversations with Sri Ramana. Bhagavan was at Arunachala for 53 years. Do you think all the conversations with Bhagavan were recorded for us to look through? When a direct devotee of Bhagavan, like Arthur Osborne, says that this is how he understood the teaching, I feel no need to question his understanding nor what Bhagavan might have said to him. As far as the Heart goes, Bhagavan spoke of it at all levels, including the physical. The fact, that Sri Ramana spoke of the Heart in physical terms at times, cannot be dismissed. What is a technique after all? Do not all techniques and methods come from the Guru. The words of the Guru are pure Grace. Who can say what those words mean to the devotees. Each gets what is needed. Arthur Osborne got what he needed. I see no need to question his understanding of Bhagavan's teaching. That was my main point regarding what David Godman had said. We are all One Heart. Love to all Harsha RamanaMaharshi, "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> wrote: > Dear Harsha, > > Thanks for giving us this link. The articles on > your website are quite interesting. > > I think however that you and David are addressing > two different points. > > David's point was that Bhagavan didn't tell > people to voluntarily direct their attention to > the right side of the chest as a deliberate > technique in meditation practice. > > If I read your remarks correctly, your point is > that Bhagavan often said the spiritual heart > center, which is located on the right side of the > chest, becomes apparent to people during > meditation. > > These two things are not contradictory. > > If anybody can find a quotation in which Bhagavan > tells people to deliberately focus attention on the > right side of the chest as a technique, I would be > fascinated to see it. I don't think I've ever seen > one. > > Best regards, > > Rob > > > - > "harshaimtm" > <RamanaMaharshi> > Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:00 AM > [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Yoga - [13] - The Heart of all things > > > > Thanks Vicki for this wonderful service to the devotees of Bhagavan. > > I wanted to quote this some time back but did not have the time to > > look it up. > > > > A while back on some list there were some questions raised about the > > Heart in the context of what David Godman had said about Sri RAmana's > > teachings. I believe Rob (Bhakta - editor realization.org) had raised > > some points as well... Sponsor Post message: RamanaMaharshi Subscribe: RamanaMaharshi- Un: RamanaMaharshi- List owner: RamanaMaharshi-owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/RamanaMaharshi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 Dear Harsha, Thank you for explaining your point of view so clearly. It is a great pleasure to read a letter like this one. I feel that I understand what you are saying perfectly. I hope I can respond with half as much clarity. The same thoughts expressed by you have also occurred to me. I have enormous respect for Arthur Osborne, and it is very difficult to imagine how he could be wrong on this point. As we all know, Bhagavan gave different instructions to different people. It seems entirely possible that he told Arthur Osborne to meditate by focusing his attention voluntarily on the right side of his chest. This could be true even if Bhagavan never said the same thing to anyone else. There is no way that David can know that such a thing didn't happen. So yes, if Arthur Osborne had written that Bhagavan told him to meditate by focusing his attention voluntarily on the right side of his chest, I would believe him. However, this is not what Arthur Osborne wrote. He didn't write that this method was given to him alone for his personal practice. What he wrote was that this method was a main component of the method of self-inquiry in general, and that it was given out by Bhagavan to large numbers of people. In the chapter of his best-known book in which he attempts to summarize Bhagavan's entire teaching for the world at large, he writes: "The instruction was to sit in meditation, asking 'Who am I?' at the same time focussing attention on the heart, not the physical organ on the left but the spiritual heart on the right. According to the nature of the questioner, Sri Bhagavan would lay stress first on the physical or the mental aspect, the concentration on the Heart or the question 'Who Am I?' (Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self- Knowledge, 149.) Arthur Osborne then gives the transcript of a dialogue in which Bhagavan talks about the existence and location of the heart center, but in which Bhagavan does not tell anybody to deliberately focus attention on it. The text then continues: "The instruction, then, was to sit concentrating on the heart at the right side and ask 'Who Am I?' (Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self-Knowledge, 151.) The word "then" in the sentence implies that the assertion has just been documented in the transcribed dialogue that we just read. However, the dialogue says no such thing. What the dialogue actually says is that the heart center exists and that it can be felt. What Arthur Osborne apparently thinks it says is that people are supposed to meditate by deliberately focusing attention on the right side of the chest. The reader cannot help wondering: if Arthur Osborne misreads Bhagavan's words in this dialogue in this way, is it not also possible that he misundestood Bhagavan in real life when he said the same thing? Now, I agree with you, of course, that only a small fraction of Bhagavan's conversations were recorded. Nevertheless, we do have thousands of them. We have also dozens of memoirs by disciples who knew him personally and a number of books co-written by Bhagavan and his disciples whose whole purpose is to set forth Bhagavan's teachings. In this whole collection of documents, is there any evidence, anywhere, that Bhagavan gave this instruction generally to large numbers of people? In fact, is there any evidence anywhere that he gave it to anybody besides Arthur Osborne? > When a direct devotee of Bhagavan, like > Arthur Osborne, says that this is how he understood > the teaching, I feel no need to question > his understanding nor what Bhagavan might > have said to him. I agree. But Arthur Osborne isn't saying that this is how he understood the teaching. He is impersonally saying that this is the teaching that Bhagavan gave to the world at large. If Bhagavan gave it out generally to large numbers of people, shouldn't there be at least one mention of it in the Talks book, which contains the individual instructions he gave to -- how many people? Over a hundred, I would guess. > As far as the Heart goes, Bhagavan spoke of it > at all levels, including the physical. The fact, > that Sri Ramana spoke of the Heart > in physical terms at times, cannot be dismissed. I don't think anybody has dismissed or questioned this point. Best regards, Rob - "harshaimtm" <RamanaMaharshi> Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:05 PM [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Yoga - [13] - The Heart of all things > Dear Rob, > > You are generally right in many things that you state. The experience > of the Heart is rare ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.