Guest guest Posted September 8, 2002 Report Share Posted September 8, 2002 Thanks Vicki for this wonderful service to the devotees of Bhagavan. I wanted to quote this some time back but did not have the time to look it up. A while back on some list there were some questions raised about the Heart in the context of what David Godman had said about Sri RAmana's teachings. I believe Rob (Bhakta - editor realization.org) had raised some points as well. I have summarized some of my responses to those and other questions on the Heart at the following link for those who may be interested. /MagazineV2/harsha/heart.html Love to all Harsha RamanaMaharshi, "viorica weissman" <viorica@z...> wrote: > Q: I do not always concentrate on the same centre in the body. > Sometimes I find it easier to concentrate on one centre and > sometimes on another. And sometimes when I concentrate > on one centre the thought of its own accord goes and fixes > itself in another. Why is that? > > > Maharshi: > It may be because of past practices of yours. But in any case > it is immaterial on which centre you concentrate since the real > Heart is in every centre and even outside the body. On whatever > part of the body you may concentrate or on whatever external > object, the Heart is there. > > Q: Can one concentrate at one time on one centre and at another time > on another or should one concentrate always consistently on the > same centres? > > Maharshi: > As I have just said, there can be no harm wherever you concentrate, > because concentration is only a means of giving up thoughts. Whatever > the centre or object on which you concentrate, he who concentrates is > always the same. > > Q: Some say that one should practise meditation on gross objects only. > It may be disastrous if one constantly seeks to kill the mind. > > Maharshi: > For who is it disastrous? Can there be disaster apart from the Self? > > Unbroken `I, I' is the infinite ocean. The ego, the `I'- thought, remains > only a bubble on it and is called Jiva or individual soul. The bubble too > is water for when it bursts it only mixes in the ocean. When it remains > a bubble it is still a part of the ocean. Ignorant of this simple truth, > innumerable methods under different denominations, such as Yoga, > Bhakti, Karma, each again with many modifications, are being taught > with great skill and in intricate detail only to entice the seekers and > confuse their minds. So also there are religions and sects and dogmas. > What are they all for? Only for knowing the Self. They are aids and > practices required for knowing the Self. > > Objects perceived by the senses are spoken of as immediate knowledge > (pratyaksha). Can anything be as direct as the Self- always experienced > without the aid of the senses? Sense-perceptions can only be indirect > knowledge, and not direct knowledge. Only one's own awareness is > direct knowledge, and that is the common experience of one and all. > No aids are needed to know one's own Self. > > ---- this chapter from Be As You Are, > David Godman > completed here ----- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 2002 Report Share Posted September 10, 2002 Dear Rob, You are generally right in many things that you state. The experience of the Heart is rare and only comes when meditation has reached a ripeness and a finality and through Grace mind enters Amrita Nadi. Although the experience of the mind merging into the Spiritual Heart is rare, we have sometimes testimony from the Sages that it actually happens and the Self is Known and Realized or more accurately, Recognized. The central issue I had raised earlier was that it was presumptuous of David Godman to question Arthur Osborne's understanding of Sri Ramana's teaching, especially Bhagavan's teaching on the Heart. The reason for that is simple. Arthur Osborne had the benefit of contact with Bhagavan and had many conversations with Sri Ramana. Bhagavan was at Arunachala for 53 years. Do you think all the conversations with Bhagavan were recorded for us to look through? When a direct devotee of Bhagavan, like Arthur Osborne, says that this is how he understood the teaching, I feel no need to question his understanding nor what Bhagavan might have said to him. As far as the Heart goes, Bhagavan spoke of it at all levels, including the physical. The fact, that Sri Ramana spoke of the Heart in physical terms at times, cannot be dismissed. What is a technique after all? Do not all techniques and methods come from the Guru. The words of the Guru are pure Grace. Who can say what those words mean to the devotees. Each gets what is needed. Arthur Osborne got what he needed. I see no need to question his understanding of Bhagavan's teaching. That was my main point regarding what David Godman had said. We are all One Heart. Love to all Harsha RamanaMaharshi, "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> wrote: > Dear Harsha, > > Thanks for giving us this link. The articles on > your website are quite interesting. > > I think however that you and David are addressing > two different points. > > David's point was that Bhagavan didn't tell > people to voluntarily direct their attention to > the right side of the chest as a deliberate > technique in meditation practice. > > If I read your remarks correctly, your point is > that Bhagavan often said the spiritual heart > center, which is located on the right side of the > chest, becomes apparent to people during > meditation. > > These two things are not contradictory. > > If anybody can find a quotation in which Bhagavan > tells people to deliberately focus attention on the > right side of the chest as a technique, I would be > fascinated to see it. I don't think I've ever seen > one. > > Best regards, > > Rob > > > - > "harshaimtm" > <RamanaMaharshi> > Sunday, September 08, 2002 8:00 AM > [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Yoga - [13] - The Heart of all things > > > > Thanks Vicki for this wonderful service to the devotees of Bhagavan. > > I wanted to quote this some time back but did not have the time to > > look it up. > > > > A while back on some list there were some questions raised about the > > Heart in the context of what David Godman had said about Sri RAmana's > > teachings. I believe Rob (Bhakta - editor realization.org) had raised > > some points as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Dear Rob, All your points are well made. Lots of love Harsha RamanaMaharshi, "Rob Sacks" <editor@r...> wrote: > Dear Harsha, > > Thank you for explaining your point of view so > clearly. It is a great pleasure to read a letter > like this one. I feel that I understand what you > are saying perfectly. > > I hope I can respond with half as much clarity. > > The same thoughts expressed by you have also > occurred to me. I have enormous respect for > Arthur Osborne, and it is very difficult to imagine > how he could be wrong on this point. > > As we all know, Bhagavan gave different instructions > to different people. It seems entirely possible that > he told Arthur Osborne to meditate by focusing > his attention voluntarily on the right side of his chest. > This could be true even if Bhagavan never said > the same thing to anyone else. There is no way > that David can know that such a thing didn't happen. > > So yes, if Arthur Osborne had written that Bhagavan > told him to meditate by focusing his attention voluntarily > on the right side of his chest, I would believe him. > > However, this is not what Arthur Osborne wrote. > He didn't write that this method was given to him > alone for his personal practice. What he wrote was > that this method was a main component of the > method of self-inquiry in general, and that it was > given out by Bhagavan to large numbers of people. > > In the chapter of his best-known book in which he > attempts to summarize Bhagavan's entire teaching > for the world at large, he writes: > > "The instruction was to sit in meditation, asking > 'Who am I?' at the same time focussing attention > on the heart, not the physical organ on the left > but the spiritual heart on the right. According to the > nature of the questioner, Sri Bhagavan would lay > stress first on the physical or the mental aspect, > the concentration on the Heart or the question 'Who > Am I?' (Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self- > Knowledge, 149.) > > Arthur Osborne then gives the transcript of a > dialogue in which Bhagavan talks about the > existence and location of the heart center, > but in which Bhagavan does not tell anybody > to deliberately focus attention on it. The text > then continues: > > "The instruction, then, was to sit concentrating on > the heart at the right side and ask 'Who Am I?' > (Ramana Maharshi and the Path of Self-Knowledge, > 151.) > > The word "then" in the sentence implies that the > assertion has just been documented in the > transcribed dialogue that we just read. However, > the dialogue says no such thing. What the dialogue > actually says is that the heart center exists and > that it can be felt. What Arthur Osborne apparently > thinks it says is that people are supposed to meditate > by deliberately focusing attention on the right side > of the chest. The reader cannot help wondering: > if Arthur Osborne misreads Bhagavan's words in > this dialogue in this way, is it not also possible that > he misundestood Bhagavan in real life when he said > the same thing? > > Now, I agree with you, of course, that only a small > fraction of Bhagavan's conversations were recorded. > Nevertheless, we do have thousands of them. We > have also dozens of memoirs by disciples who knew > him personally and a number of books co-written > by Bhagavan and his disciples whose whole purpose > is to set forth Bhagavan's teachings. In this whole > collection of documents, is there any evidence, > anywhere, that Bhagavan gave this instruction > generally to large numbers of people? In fact, is > there any evidence anywhere that he gave it to > anybody besides Arthur Osborne? > > > When a direct devotee of Bhagavan, like > > Arthur Osborne, says that this is how he understood > > the teaching, I feel no need to question > > his understanding nor what Bhagavan might > > have said to him. > > I agree. But Arthur Osborne isn't saying that this is > how he understood the teaching. He is impersonally > saying that this is the teaching that Bhagavan gave > to the world at large. If Bhagavan gave it out generally > to large numbers of people, shouldn't there be at > least one mention of it in the Talks book, which > contains the individual instructions he gave to -- > how many people? Over a hundred, I would guess. > > > As far as the Heart goes, Bhagavan spoke of it > > at all levels, including the physical. The fact, > > that Sri Ramana spoke of the Heart > > in physical terms at times, cannot be dismissed. > > I don't think anybody has dismissed or questioned > this point. > > Best regards, > > Rob > > - > "harshaimtm" > <RamanaMaharshi> > Tuesday, September 10, 2002 10:05 PM > [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Yoga - [13] - The Heart of all things > > > > Dear Rob, > > > > You are generally right in many things that you state. The experience > > of the Heart is rare ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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