Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Dear Richard: While sitting in meditations doing Vichara one must put their attention somewhere or let it flit about. Nisargadatta says to gaze out into the darkness, which is the sat guru. Where is your eye focus when you are sitting ? Are your eyes relaxed? Are you aware of any darkness or light? Is your eye focus downward? It must be somewhere or flitting about according to mental image pictures/thoughts. Concentration is somewhere even though you are doing Self Inquiry, or doesn't it matter whether you are holding the concentration steady so as not to engender an inordinate amount of thoughts to deal with? I have much less thoughts and better concentration gazing out from the forehead, but I am using the right side of the heart for recent practice. TIA, Love, Tired of Names Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 2002 Report Share Posted September 11, 2002 Dear Alton, At leaast in my practice there is no visual attention whatsoever. In inquiry the focus is on the sense of identity, or reality. This is VERY within. AS I notice, during inquiry, a sense of identity or reality, I look at this, and look for where the reality and identity comes from. One reason I think that Nome calls this formless is that inquiry continues to change as one gets deeper into the practice. One thing is certain, that the focus of inquiry is not anthing objective. It is more like the disolving of the apparently objective into the non-objective. Does this make any sense? It is hard to describe verbally. >From your posts it seems that your practice is progressing. We are Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "Atlon Slater" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > Dear Richard: > While sitting in meditations doing Vichara one must put their > attention somewhere or let it flit about. Nisargadatta says to gaze > out into the darkness, which is the sat guru. Where is your eye focus > when you are sitting ? Are your eyes relaxed? Are you aware of any > darkness or light? Is your eye focus downward? It must be somewhere > or flitting about according to mental image pictures/thoughts. > Concentration is somewhere even though you are doing Self Inquiry, or > doesn't it matter whether you are holding the concentration steady so > as not to engender an inordinate amount of thoughts to deal with? > > I have much less thoughts and better concentration gazing out from > the forehead, but I am using the right side of the heart for recent > practice. > TIA, > Love, > Tired of Names Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Dear Richard: Thanks for the Self Inquiry dialogue. If I am becoming intrusive please tell me and I will cease and desist, but I have observed that you are someone who shares his practice and insights with others. Since you are so much more advanced than I am I feel honored to have this dialogue with you.. So here are some more queries. You say that there is no visual attention whatsoever. Are you aware of the various sensations of the body while sitting, like pressure or touch points, breathing, slight movements like the neck cracking etc.? If you are, do you continually ask to whom?.... and then follow with to me..and then ask the question, Who Am I.? It you do the aforesaid don't you continually contaminate your mind with more and more thoughts and take away the silence of the mind? If you just focus mostly on thoughts and what is observed then don't all those questions also take away the silence that is necessary to Realize the Self? Thanks for you continued devotion to novices like myself. As far as my practice deepening goes, It is not but my ability to sit for long periods is improving so in my view that is a prerequisite to the deepening that you often refer to. Love, Tired of Names RamanaMaharshi, "Richard Clarke" <r_clarke@i...> wrote: > Dear Alton, > > At leaast in my practice there is no visual attention whatsoever. In > inquiry the focus is on the sense of identity, or reality. This is > VERY within. > > AS I notice, during inquiry, a sense of identity or reality, I look > at this, and look for where the reality and identity comes from. > > One reason I think that Nome calls this formless is that inquiry > continues to change as one gets deeper into the practice. > > One thing is certain, that the focus of inquiry is not anthing > objective. It is more like the disolving of the apparently objective > into the non-objective. > > Does this make any sense? It is hard to describe verbally. > > From your posts it seems that your practice is progressing. > > We are Not two, > Richard > > RamanaMaharshi, "Atlon Slater" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > Dear Richard: > > While sitting in meditations doing Vichara one must put their > > attention somewhere or let it flit about. Nisargadatta says to gaze > > out into the darkness, which is the sat guru. Where is your eye > focus > > when you are sitting ? Are your eyes relaxed? Are you aware of any > > darkness or light? Is your eye focus downward? It must be somewhere > > or flitting about according to mental image pictures/thoughts. > > Concentration is somewhere even though you are doing Self Inquiry, > or > > doesn't it matter whether you are holding the concentration steady > so > > as not to engender an inordinate amount of thoughts to deal with? > > > > I have much less thoughts and better concentration gazing out from > > the forehead, but I am using the right side of the heart for recent > > practice. > > TIA, > > Love, > > Tired of Names Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Dear Alton, We are both seekers looking to go deeper. Happy to help if I am able. First, the inquiry is not involved with any physical sensation or focus. These may arise, though, and distract. What I do with then varies, but the approaches all aim to turn the attention back deeply within. One approach is the use a form of Ramana's instruction when asked what to do when throught arise during inquiry. Ramana instructed to ask "For whom is the thought?" One can do that with a sensation as well. Another approach that I have used is a form of negation or discrimination. When the sensation (or thought) arises, I might "look" closely at it, and ask myself, "Is that who I am?" then see if the thought or sensation is "objective" -- that is something that I see or perceive. If objectvie then it cannot be who I am. So I say to myself, :if that is not who I am, then who am I?" and return to the inquiry. Another approach is to notice something (sensation or thought, etc.) that seems "real," then to ask "where does the reality come from?" This returns the attention deeply within. Another approach upon the noticing of the sensation or thought is to ask, "Who knows this?" (This approach is very similar to "From whom is this?"). Again, the attention is turned inward. As I understand the practice, based on instruction and questions and answers from Nome, the approach of discrimination allows the seeker to start questioning thier ideas of identity and reality. Finally (says Nome and Ramana) this removes the false ideas and allows the Reality to shine forth. We are taught that Realization is not a matter of gaining or attaining anything, since You are That to begin with. It is a matter of removing the clouds that cover the sun to see that it was light all along. Also inquiry is NOT a matter of continually repeating, "Who am I?" It is more a matter of starting with the question, and allowing the question to open your knowledge of your identity. In my own inquiry I may ask "Who am I?" more than once during a period of inquiry, but this is done only after my mind has drifted, or been distracted by a sensation or thought. After some questioning as described above I will return to the inquiry by asking "Who am I?" One other point: Since inquiry is not a physical action, then one should not look for the inquiry to return some physical result. What happens in much more internal. You may experience changes, but these changes come from the changes that gradually (or suddenly) come from your own deepening Self-knowledge. My experience is that I can know if I am making headway in the inquiry by an increasing sense of inner peace in deialy life, and an increasing sense of "space" or "vastness" in the inquiry. It is the ego-identifications that constitute the limits on inner peace, and the sense of freedom or vastness. When some identifiction drops off, then there is more space, more peace. Does this help some? I try as well as I know how to espress what I have learned though my own practice. We are exploring the great unknown -- but always present -- Reality together. Sometimes it is good for one explorer to say to another, "have you looked over there?" Keep asking. Keep looking for the Truth Within. We are Not two, Richard RamanaMaharshi, "Atlon Slater" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > Dear Richard: > Thanks for the Self Inquiry dialogue. If I am becoming intrusive > please tell me and I will cease and desist, but I have observed that > you are someone who shares his practice and insights with others. > Since you are so much more advanced than I am I feel honored to have > this dialogue with you.. > > So here are some more queries. You say that there is no visual > attention whatsoever. Are you aware of the various sensations of the > body while sitting, like pressure or touch points, breathing, slight > movements like the neck cracking etc.? If you are, do you continually > ask to whom?.... and then follow with to me..and then ask the > question, Who Am I.? It you do the aforesaid don't you continually > contaminate your mind with more and more thoughts and take away the > silence of the mind? If you just focus mostly on thoughts and what is > observed then don't all those questions also take away the silence > that is necessary to Realize the Self? > > Thanks for you continued devotion to novices like myself. > > As far as my practice deepening goes, It is not but my ability to sit > for long periods is improving so in my view that is a prerequisite to > the deepening that you often refer to. > > Love, > Tired of Names > > > RamanaMaharshi, "Richard Clarke" <r_clarke@i...> wrote: > > Dear Alton, > > > > At leaast in my practice there is no visual attention whatsoever. > In > > inquiry the focus is on the sense of identity, or reality. This is > > VERY within. > > > > AS I notice, during inquiry, a sense of identity or reality, I look > > at this, and look for where the reality and identity comes from. > > > > One reason I think that Nome calls this formless is that inquiry > > continues to change as one gets deeper into the practice. > > > > One thing is certain, that the focus of inquiry is not anthing > > objective. It is more like the disolving of the apparently > objective > > into the non-objective. > > > > Does this make any sense? It is hard to describe verbally. > > > > From your posts it seems that your practice is progressing. > > > > We are Not two, > > Richard > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "Atlon Slater" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > > Dear Richard: > > > While sitting in meditations doing Vichara one must put their > > > attention somewhere or let it flit about. Nisargadatta says to > gaze > > > out into the darkness, which is the sat guru. Where is your eye > > focus > > > when you are sitting ? Are your eyes relaxed? Are you aware of > any > > > darkness or light? Is your eye focus downward? It must be > somewhere > > > or flitting about according to mental image pictures/thoughts. > > > Concentration is somewhere even though you are doing Self > Inquiry, > > or > > > doesn't it matter whether you are holding the concentration > steady > > so > > > as not to engender an inordinate amount of thoughts to deal with? > > > > > > I have much less thoughts and better concentration gazing out > from > > > the forehead, but I am using the right side of the heart for > recent > > > practice. > > > TIA, > > > Love, > > > Tired of Names Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 -Dear Richard; Thanks for all this great information about the practice. I have to study it more and then if I have some more questions, I will ask. Aloha, Tired of Names aka Alton -- In RamanaMaharshi, "Richard Clarke" <r_clarke@i...> wrote: > Dear Alton, > > We are both seekers looking to go deeper. Happy to help if I am able. > > First, the inquiry is not involved with any physical sensation or > focus. These may arise, though, and distract. What I do with then > varies, but the approaches all aim to turn the attention back deeply > within. > > One approach is the use a form of Ramana's instruction when asked > what to do when throught arise during inquiry. Ramana instructed to > ask "For whom is the thought?" One can do that with a sensation as > well. > > Another approach that I have used is a form of negation or > discrimination. When the sensation (or thought) arises, I > might "look" closely at it, and ask myself, "Is that who I am?" then > see if the thought or sensation is "objective" -- that is something > that I see or perceive. If objectvie then it cannot be who I am. So I > say to myself, :if that is not who I am, then who am I?" and return > to the inquiry. > > Another approach is to notice something (sensation or thought, etc.) > that seems "real," then to ask "where does the reality come from?" > This returns the attention deeply within. > > Another approach upon the noticing of the sensation or thought is to > ask, "Who knows this?" (This approach is very similar to "From whom > is this?"). Again, the attention is turned inward. > > As I understand the practice, based on instruction and questions and > answers from Nome, the approach of discrimination allows the seeker > to start questioning thier ideas of identity and reality. Finally > (says Nome and Ramana) this removes the false ideas and allows the > Reality to shine forth. We are taught that Realization is not a > matter of gaining or attaining anything, since You are That to begin > with. It is a matter of removing the clouds that cover the sun to see > that it was light all along. > > Also inquiry is NOT a matter of continually repeating, "Who am I?" It > is more a matter of starting with the question, and allowing the > question to open your knowledge of your identity. In my own inquiry > I may ask "Who am I?" more than once during a period of inquiry, but > this is done only after my mind has drifted, or been distracted by a > sensation or thought. After some questioning as described above I > will return to the inquiry by asking "Who am I?" > > One other point: Since inquiry is not a physical action, then one > should not look for the inquiry to return some physical result. What > happens in much more internal. You may experience changes, but these > changes come from the changes that gradually (or suddenly) come from > your own deepening Self-knowledge. My experience is that I can know > if I am making headway in the inquiry by an increasing sense of inner > peace in deialy life, and an increasing sense of "space" > or "vastness" in the inquiry. It is the ego-identifications that > constitute the limits on inner peace, and the sense of freedom or > vastness. When some identifiction drops off, then there is more > space, more peace. > > Does this help some? I try as well as I know how to espress what I > have learned though my own practice. We are exploring the great > unknown -- but always present -- Reality together. Sometimes it is > good for one explorer to say to another, "have you looked over > there?" > > Keep asking. Keep looking for the Truth Within. > > We are Not two, > Richard > > RamanaMaharshi, "Atlon Slater" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > Dear Richard: > > Thanks for the Self Inquiry dialogue. If I am becoming intrusive > > please tell me and I will cease and desist, but I have observed > that > > you are someone who shares his practice and insights with others. > > Since you are so much more advanced than I am I feel honored to > have > > this dialogue with you.. > > > > So here are some more queries. You say that there is no visual > > attention whatsoever. Are you aware of the various sensations of > the > > body while sitting, like pressure or touch points, breathing, > slight > > movements like the neck cracking etc.? If you are, do you > continually > > ask to whom?.... and then follow with to me..and then ask the > > question, Who Am I.? It you do the aforesaid don't you continually > > contaminate your mind with more and more thoughts and take away the > > silence of the mind? If you just focus mostly on thoughts and what > is > > observed then don't all those questions also take away the silence > > that is necessary to Realize the Self? > > > > Thanks for you continued devotion to novices like myself. > > > > As far as my practice deepening goes, It is not but my ability to > sit > > for long periods is improving so in my view that is a prerequisite > to > > the deepening that you often refer to. > > > > Love, > > Tired of Names > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "Richard Clarke" <r_clarke@i...> wrote: > > > Dear Alton, > > > > > > At leaast in my practice there is no visual attention > whatsoever. > > In > > > inquiry the focus is on the sense of identity, or reality. This > is > > > VERY within. > > > > > > AS I notice, during inquiry, a sense of identity or reality, I > look > > > at this, and look for where the reality and identity comes from. > > > > > > One reason I think that Nome calls this formless is that inquiry > > > continues to change as one gets deeper into the practice. > > > > > > One thing is certain, that the focus of inquiry is not anthing > > > objective. It is more like the disolving of the apparently > > objective > > > into the non-objective. > > > > > > Does this make any sense? It is hard to describe verbally. > > > > > > From your posts it seems that your practice is progressing. > > > > > > We are Not two, > > > Richard > > > > > > RamanaMaharshi, "Atlon Slater" <leenalton@h...> wrote: > > > > Dear Richard: > > > > While sitting in meditations doing Vichara one must put their > > > > attention somewhere or let it flit about. Nisargadatta says to > > gaze > > > > out into the darkness, which is the sat guru. Where is your eye > > > focus > > > > when you are sitting ? Are your eyes relaxed? Are you aware of > > any > > > > darkness or light? Is your eye focus downward? It must be > > somewhere > > > > or flitting about according to mental image pictures/thoughts. > > > > Concentration is somewhere even though you are doing Self > > Inquiry, > > > or > > > > doesn't it matter whether you are holding the concentration > > steady > > > so > > > > as not to engender an inordinate amount of thoughts to deal > with? > > > > > > > > I have much less thoughts and better concentration gazing out > > from > > > > the forehead, but I am using the right side of the heart for > > recent > > > > practice. > > > > TIA, > > > > Love, > > > > Tired of Names Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 2002 Report Share Posted September 12, 2002 Dear Alton, > Are you aware of the various sensations of the > body while sitting, like pressure or touch points, breathing, slight > movements like the neck cracking etc.? If you are, do you continually > ask to whom?.... and then follow with to me..and then ask the > question, Who Am I.? If you happen to become aware of such things, it's only a distraction. Of course that does happen. When it does happen, yes, you return to inquiry the way you describe by asking "To whom is this sensation occuring?" However, you are not supposed to deliberately focus on these things. Yes, you're right that you need a focus for your attention. Bhagavan often said so himself. He used the metaphor of giving an elephant something to carry so its trunk would be still. Your focus is supposed to be the I-thought. The inquiry involves placing your full attention on the "I thought", the feeling of "me", and following it deeper to find out where it arises. Sri Ramana compared the "I thought" to a scent that a dog sniffs and follows to find its master. I'll attach a quotation from Maharshi's Gospel that explains this. It uses the Sanskrit term for I-thought, "aham-vritti". Notice that Sri Ramana says, "To that scent the dog holds on undistractedly while searching for him, and finally it succeeds in tracing him." The key words are "holds on undistractedly," meaning, "focus." Best regards, Rob >From Maharshi's Gospel: "M. Self-enquiry by following the clue of Aham-vritti is just like the dog tracing its master by his scent. The master may be at some distant, unknown place, but that does not at all stand in the way of the dog tracing him. The master's scent is an infallible clue for the animal, and nothing else, such as the dress he wears, or his build and stature etc., counts. To that scent the dog holds on undistractedly while searching for him, and finally it succeeds in tracing him. Likewise in your quest for the Self, the one infallible clue is the Aham-vritti, the 'I-am'-ness which is the primary datum of your experience. No other clue can lead you direct to Self-realization. - "Atlon Slater" <leenalton <RamanaMaharshi> Thursday, September 12, 2002 2:15 AM [RamanaMaharshi] Re: Richard: Self Inquiry and the Heart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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